Ancient flood stories from many parts of the world

[outhouse]

There is no doubt that the Israelites had inherited, borrowed or adapted many stories from Mesopotamia, but it need NOT NECESSARILY BE ALL AT THE BABYLONIAN EXILE.

sorry1: I just need to emphasize this point.)

The Mesopotamian culture, religion and myth had spread all the way to the Levant, including Palestine, as early as the mid-2nd millennium BCE, as well as all the way to the Hittite Empire in the northwest and Egypt in the southeast.

Tablets found in Egypt and the Hittite of the Gilgamesh's epic demonstrate the popularity of the Akkadian-Babylonian literature. Like I wrote early, there are fragments found in Megiddo, Palestine; the biggest fragment coincided with the narrative of Tablet VII (Death of Enkidu) of the Standard Version.

Due to the popularity of Mesopotamian legend in the Near East, they could have infiltrate the Palestine at any point time, since the 14th century BCE.

According to the Documentary Hypothesis, there are 2 versions of the Noah's Flood story had been redacted and edited into one (rather) inconsistent myth: J (c. mid-10th century BCE) and P (c. 500 BCE) sources.

So not the whole flood story come from the Babylonian Exile period.

I don't remember which parts were from which sources: the rain lasted for 40-day-and-40-night version or 150-day version. All I remember is that the part of the size for the construction of the Ark (Genesis 6) and God's covenant to Noah (not to send another flood to wipe out the Earth) come from Priestly source.

You misunderstood me bud. I agree with your post 100%.

I was only giving one example of how the final redaction took place, and have mentioned the multiple accounts we have. I also stated it didnt originate after the exile.

 

[Desert Snake]

I was only giving one example of how the final redaction took place,

We're talking about oral histories here, you don't actually know which 'version' (if they are even the same/different whatever) came first. Keep in mind that these were not settled people until they were in Israel, so you really don't even know the geographic perspective of the original narrative.

 

[outhouse]

We're talking about oral histories here, you don't actually know which 'version' (if they are even the same/different whatever) came first. Keep in mind that these were not settled people until they were in Israel, so you really don't even know the geographic perspective of the original narrative.

Stop please. Your not contriburing to the post with negative opinion attacking the poster.

Do you have any sources they were only oral, when they began, when they were compiled, redacted? Anything at all to contribute?

Now to deal with your post.

We're talking about oral histories here

False, were talking about scripture in place. yes oral traditions were part of it though. We are also dealing with other cultures written reocord. Not just campfire stories.

you don't actually know which 'version' (if they are even the same/different whatever) came first.

False again.

Please study up a little before you post if you want to contribute. We have dating to specific legends that paint a clear picture of evolution of these legends turned mythology. Its obvious which ones are prior to others.

Keep in mind that these were not settled people until they were in Israel,

False again, these were not all nomadic settlers to the highlands around 1200 BC. They were factually displaces Canaanites, but not soley Cannanites.

without attacking your knowledge or lack of, do you even have the slightest idea how Israelites formed and evolved prior to 600 BC?

so you really don't even know the geographic perspective of the original narrative.

False again.

Stop, your not a mind reader and thus have no credible opinion about my knowledge on this subject I have intensely studied.


The first legend starts after a Sumerian ATTESTED flood on the Euphrates in 2900 BC after a 6 day thunderstorm overflowed the already swollen banks of the river. This was recorded in Cuneiform by the Sumerians and the flood real. Ziusudra was also a real man found on their kings list in Cuneiform.

There was factually a river flood that completely devistated the area in Mesopotamia, exactly where Noahs legend is said to originate from. The OT authors flat tell us where the flood originates. This isnt rocket science.

 

[Desert Snake]

The first legend starts after a Sumerian ATTESTED flood on the Euphrates in 2900 BC after a 6 day thunderstorm overflowed the already swollen banks of the river. This was recorded in Cuneiform by the Sumerians and the flood real. Ziusudra was also a real man found on their kings list in Cuneiform.

There was factually a river flood that completely devistated the area in Mesopotamia, exactly where Noahs legend is said to originate from. The OT authors flat tell us where the flood originates. This isnt rocket science.[/quote]

No, it's not. It's highly speculative.

 

[outhouse]

No, it's not. It's highly speculative.

Then provide sources

 

[gnostic]

You misunderstood me bud. I agree with your post 100%.

I was only giving one example of how the final redaction took place, and have mentioned the multiple accounts we have. I also stated it didnt originate after the exile.

Sorry for misunderstanding your post.

It does look like you were saying that they (Jews) got the entire Flood story from the Babylonian Exile or Return.

 

[outhouse]

Sorry for misunderstanding your post.

It does look like you were saying that they (Jews) got the entire Flood story from the Babylonian Exile or Return.

Its all good bud.

The more we explore, the more we learn.

 

[outhouse]

Tis is for Gnostic showing you what I ment with my post in refference to the exile.

Ziusudra - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Noah
Main article: Noah
The similarities between the story of Noah's Ark, the Sumerian story of Ziusudra, and the Babylonian stories of Atrahasis and Utnapishtim are shown by corresponding lines in various versions:

"the storm had swept...for seven days and seven nights" — Ziusudra 203
"For seven days and seven nights came the storm" — Atrahasis III,iv, 24
"Six days and seven nights the wind and storm" — Gilgamesh XI, 127
"rain fell upon the earth forty days and forty nights" — Genesis 7:12
​

"He offered a sacrifice" — Atrahasis III,v, 31
"And offered a sacrifice" — Gilgamesh XI, 155
"offered burnt offerings on the altar" — Genesis 8:20
"built an altar and sacrificed to the gods" — Berossus.
​

"The gods smelled the savor" — Atrahasis III,v,34
"The gods smelled the sweet savor" — Gilgamesh XI, 160
"And the Lord smelled the sweet savor..." — Genesis 8:21
​

The Hebrew flood story of Genesis 6–9 dates to at least the 5th century BC. According to the documentary hypothesis, it is a composite of two literary sources J and P that were combined by a post-exilic editor, 539–400 BC.

Hans Schmid believes both the J material and the P material were products of the Babylonian exile period (6th century BC) and were directly derived from Babylonian sources (see also Panbabylonism).[20]

 

[CG Didymus]

The Hebrew flood story of Genesis 6–9 dates to at least the 5th century BC. According to the documentary hypothesis, it is a composite of two literary sources J and P that were combined by a post-exilic editor, 539–400 BC.

Hans Schmid believes both the J material and the P material were products of the Babylonian exile period (6th century BC) and were directly derived from Babylonian sources (see also Panbabylonism).[20]

I glad you've researched it. It is beyond the trouble I want to get into, but I believed it. Why wouldn't old legends and myths be tied into a new story that told of where we came from and where we are going. To say Moses wrote the first five books as dictated or inspired from God makes sense to give the writings authority. If it were true that would imply that the Hebrew people didn't know any of their history until Moses told them. Even if he wrote it, what did he write it on? If the Torah was an oral tradition before it got written down, then Moses didn't write, so then who and when did it get written down? On the hypothesis link it referred to Num 21:14 that mentions a Book of Wars? Who wrote that?

It seems much more likely the books were edited down from several sources and from several legends. Flood stories abounded, so a version of it made its way into the Hebrew Scriptures. I have no problem with it being a mythological story. For the true believer you can hold on to your literal view, but for me and my house we choose to believe Outhouse.

 

[shawn001]

From a Christianbook store.

"Gilgamesh: Translated from the Sin-Leqi-Unninni Version"

"The story of Gilgamesh, an ancient epic poem written on clay tablets in a cuneiform alphabet, is as fascinating and moving as it is crucial to our ability to fathom the time and the place in which it was written. Gardner's version restores the poetry of the text and the lyricism that is lost in the earlier, almost scientific renderings. The principal theme of the poem is a familiar one: man's persistent and hopeless quest for immortality. It tells of the heroic exploits of an ancient ruler of the walled city of Uruk named Gilgamesh. Included in its story is an account of the Flood that predates the Biblical version by centuries. Gilgamesh and his companion, a wild man of the woods named Enkidu, fight monsters and demonic powers in search of honor and lasting fame. When Enkidu is put to death by the vengeful goddess Ishtar, Gilgamesh travels to the underworld to find an answer to his grief and confront the question of mortality."

Christianbook.com: Gilgamesh: Translated from the Sin-Leqi-Unninni Version: John Gardner, John Maier, Richard Henshaw: 9780394740898

Sin-Leqi-Unninni is one of the earliest NAMED authors in history. He translated the Story from earlier writings even.

Abraham came from the Sumer city of UR. He would have known of the Epic of Gilgamesh story.

 

[gnostic]

Abraham came from the Sumer city of UR. He would have known of the Epic of Gilgamesh story.

If Abraham did exist, and if he did originally come from Babylonia, then yes, it could be possible that Abraham have known of the epic, while he was there.

But the current theory and evidences about the origin of the Israelites, is that the Israelites were always in Canaan, for they were a tribe of Canaanites. There are no archaeological evidences to support Abraham come from Mesopotamia, and there are no (archaeological) evidences to support the Israelites having exodus out of Egypt too.

(Yes, I am aware of some people (including Flavius Josephus) having linked the Israelites to the expulsion of the Hyksos...but that Josephus' interpretation of Manetho's Aegyptiaca.)

 

[outhouse]

If Abraham did exist, and if he did originally come from Babylonia, then yes, it could be possible that Abraham have known of the epic, while he was there.

But the current theory and evidences about the origin of the Israelites, is that the Israelites were always in Canaan, for they were a tribe of Canaanites. There are no archaeological evidences to support Abraham come from Mesopotamia, and there are no (archaeological) evidences to support the Israelites having exodus out of Egypt too.

(Yes, I am aware of some people (including Flavius Josephus) having linked the Israelites to the expulsion of the Hyksos...but that Josephus' interpretation of Manetho's Aegyptiaca.)

Yes all correct. Ill try and add a little detail.

Scholars claim Abraham was a literary creation.

The only thing I might add is just prior to the Canaanite civilization crumbling, many other civilizations also crumbled including governements of other countries.

While the first proto Israelite settlers around 1200 BC showed no difference from Canaanites, by 1000BC semetic settlers came from all over the levant to the highlands which would have also included those from Mesopotamian areas, and nomadic tribes that traveled in and out of Egypt as well.

 

[shawn001]

If Abraham did exist, and if he did originally come from Babylonia, then yes, it could be possible that Abraham have known of the epic, while he was there.

But the current theory and evidences about the origin of the Israelites, is that the Israelites were always in Canaan, for they were a tribe of Canaanites. There are no archaeological evidences to support Abraham come from Mesopotamia, and there are no (archaeological) evidences to support the Israelites having exodus out of Egypt too.

(Yes, I am aware of some people (including Flavius Josephus) having linked the Israelites to the expulsion of the Hyksos...but that Josephus' interpretation of Manetho's Aegyptiaca.)

I am not saying he did or did not, just that is believed to be his origin.

The Gobekli Tepe Temple at 11,000 years old is 6000 years older then Stonehenge.

Gobekli Tepe: The World’s First Temple?
Predating Stonehenge by 6,000 years, Turkey's stunning Gobekli Tepe upends the conventional view of the rise of civilization

Gobekli Tepe: The World

9 miles from the temple is the city where Abraham is said to have come from called ŞANLIURFA.

Its even older then the 11,600 years of the temple Gobekli Tepe.

Göbekli Tepe - Pictures, More From National Geographic Magazine

These are people who had not developed agriculture, stone age people.

 

[Desert Snake]

Yes all correct. Ill try and add a little detail.

Scholars claim Abraham was a literary creation.

The only thing I might add is just prior to the Canaanite civilization crumbling, many other civilizations also crumbled including governements of other countries.

You got a lot of splainin to do. This should be interesting.

 

[shawn001]

Just FYI

Comparison of the Babylonian
and Noachian flood stories

COMPARISON OF BABYLONIAN AND NOAHIC FLOOD STORIES

One thing we now for sure, is there was never a global flood. A part of the Atacama desert in Chile hasn't had rain in 22 million years.

 

[shawn001]

Atacama desert

7 minutes into the video.

[youtube]sWsF6NgSuqM[/youtube]
How the Earth Was Made Complete Season 1 06of13 Driest Place On Earth XviD AC3 MVGroup org - YouTube

 

[outhouse]

I am not saying he did or did not, just that is believed to be his origin.

The Gobekli Tepe Temple at 11,000 years old is 6000 years older then Stonehenge.

Gobekli Tepe: The World’s First Temple?
Predating Stonehenge by 6,000 years, Turkey's stunning Gobekli Tepe upends the conventional view of the rise of civilization

Gobekli Tepe: The World

9 miles from the temple is the city where Abraham is said to have come from called ŞANLIURFA.

Its even older then the 11,600 years of the temple Gobekli Tepe.

Göbekli Tepe - Pictures, More From National Geographic Magazine

These are people who had not developed agriculture, stone age people.

They are not sure they didnt have agriculture, every special ive seen shows them as seasonally using agriculture.

What they are trying to prove is that the model of agriculture first then religion, is backwards that organized religion predates agriculture.

The problem with this site is people didnt live there. In the town nearby is more then likely where they lived and we dont have evidence one way or the other for agriculture or lack of.


I think its too early to make judgement just yet, theres no telling if they had small scale agriculture that developed int the evidence we already know about. And really we have some sites going back 12,500 years ago, its not a stretch to think these people had agriculture. As a matter of fact the archeologist are claiming these are he people who developped agriculture. I thik there guessing quite a bit, but there is some good information showing DNA to wheat originates 20 miles from the complex.



Om sure religious beliefs predate agriculture anyway. We have Venus type figurines going back much further by leaps and bounds predating this temple complex.

 

[outhouse]

You got a lot of splainin to do. This should be interesting.

None at all actually.


read both and understand it

History of ancient Israel and Judah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Abraham - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[gnostic]

I am not saying he did or did not, just that is believed to be his origin.

The Gobekli Tepe Temple at 11,000 years old is 6000 years older then Stonehenge.

Gobekli Tepe: The World’s First Temple?
Predating Stonehenge by 6,000 years, Turkey's stunning Gobekli Tepe upends the conventional view of the rise of civilization

Gobekli Tepe: The World

9 miles from the temple is the city where Abraham is said to have come from called ŞANLIURFA.

Its even older then the 11,600 years of the temple Gobekli Tepe.

Göbekli Tepe - Pictures, More From National Geographic Magazine

These are people who had not developed agriculture, stone age people.

I don't understand your reply, shawn001. What Abraham has to do with Gobekli Tepe Temple?

Şanlıurfa, or Edessa isn't Ur, so what Muslim traditions claimed. Although I find traditions are interesting sources of information, traditions are not reliable sources of information. Beside that, the Chaldea was in southern Iraq, as was the formerly ancient city of Ur. Just because the land have been in the hands of Muslim Turks, doesn't mean that their tradition or their geography of the place (Şanlıurfa = Ur) is accurate in any shape or form.

Nevertheless, the Gobekli Tepe Temple predate anything to do with Abraham, but what I can't figure put is your point for bringing the Gobekli Tepe Temple into your reply? Are you saying Abraham lived back in 12,000 years ago?

 

[shawn001]

I don't understand your reply, shawn001. What Abraham has to do with Gobekli Tepe Temple?

Şanlıurfa, or Edessa isn't Ur, so what Muslim traditions claimed. Although I find traditions are interesting sources of information, traditions are not reliable sources of information. Beside that, the Chaldea was in southern Iraq, as was the formerly ancient city of Ur. Just because the land have been in the hands of Muslim Turks, doesn't mean that their tradition or their geography of the place (Şanlıurfa = Ur) is accurate in any shape or form.

Nevertheless, the Gobekli Tepe Temple predate anything to do with Abraham, but what I can't figure put is your point for bringing the Gobekli Tepe Temple into your reply? Are you saying Abraham lived back in 12,000 years ago?

"Are you saying Abraham lived back in 12,000 years ago?"

No


Gnostic, watch this

[youtube]sU7GKFm3hXI[/youtube]
12,000 Years Old Site: Gobekli Tepe - Read Description - YouTube