...and now for something completely different: Free Will!

[Wildswanderer]

So, just to be clear, if a serial child murderer escapes arrest their whole life, and "comes to the cross" before their death, they get off scot free. They will be in paradise next to the children they murdered.
In fact, those children might be in hell if they believed in the wrong god, or none at all.

Seems entirely reasonable, doesn't it.

You really don't understand grace?
If you were wise, you would not want justice.
It's amusing how people who have no basis in their reality for justice are so obsessed with it.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Of course they are.


You love someone so much that you cannot bear the thought of them not being with you, so you kill them (a bit like how god can't stand the thought of us not being with him, so he sends us to hell).
Love for someone that is so deep that you would rather go to prison for murder than see them suffer any longer.
Many Muslims claim that they "love Muhammad more than their mother/children/etc."

Just face it, love can lead to murder.
And as you nicely pointed out, loyalty to your faith can also lead to murder. Loyalty to your faith is usually held up as a virtue rather than a sin comparable to murder.
Your point has been irretrievably damaged. Let it die quietly.

Killing someone because you can't stand for them to not be with you is not love. That's selfishness.

And you might want to think about whether killing someone for an idea is love or another form of hate. Killing someone to protect another isn't murder, BTW.

 

[KWED]

You really don't understand grace?

I understand what the word means, just not how you are using it. Try explaining.

If you were wise, you would not want justice.

Why not? Who doesn't want justice? Even you have been banging on about the appropriate punishment for offences. That is what "justice" is.
I thought god was supposed to be "just". Are you now telling us that he is not just?

It's amusing how people who have no basis in their reality for justice are so obsessed with it.

Why do I have no basis for justice in the real world?
Try using rational arguments rather than just meaningless platitudes.

 

[KWED]

Killing someone because you can't stand for them to not be with you is not love. That's selfishness.

It is your love that drives you to kill.
Also, you could make the same argument for any "hate" murder. What caused the hate? Then that was the cause, not the hate.
QED.

And you might want to think about whether killing someone for an idea is love or another form of hate.

It is both. The love of one causes the hate of the other. And as you just argued, it is the emotion tat causes the hate that is to blame.

Killing someone to protect another isn't murder, BTW.

I never used that example, so not sure what your point is.

 

[Wildswanderer]

It is your love that drives you to kill.

Nope, you might think that's love, but it's not.

 

[Wildswanderer]

I understand what the word means, just not how you are using it. Try explaining.

Why not? Who doesn't want justice? Even you have been banging on about the appropriate punishment for offences. That is what "justice" is.
I thought god was supposed to be "just". Are you now telling us that he is not just?

Why do I have no basis for justice in the real world?
Try using rational arguments rather than just meaningless platitudes.

Grace, in short, is unmerited favor from God.
Justice from God would mean we all fail to live up to the standard, so we all either just cease to exist or are eternally separated from God.
Atheists and agnostics have no basis for justice being a thing... only survival of the fittest.

 

[idea]

Grace, in short, is unmerited favor from God.
Justice from God would mean we all fail to live up to the standard, so we all either just cease to exist or are eternally separated from God.
Atheists and agnostics have no basis for justice being a thing... only survival of the fittest.

What is the point of our life on earth again, if everyone is saved by grace in the end?

 

[Wildswanderer]

What is the point of our life on earth again, if everyone is saved by grace in the end?

They aren't. Only those that accept God's grace are saved.

 

[dybmh]

I've never seen any explanation of what this purpose might be, and I have asked!

The purpose is to reward those who turn away from evil and those who remain faithful through suffering. The challenge is great so that the reward can be great.

 

[ppp]

The purpose is to reward those who turn away from evil and those who remain faithful through suffering. The challenge is great so that the reward can be great.

So, if I torture and degrade my kid for decades, then give him a prize if he doesn't torture and degrade other kids, I am being a good and moral parent? Tell me again about your moral compass.

 

[dybmh]

So, if I torture and degrade my kid for decades, then give him a prize if he doesn't torture and degrade other kids, I am being a good and moral parent? Tell me again about your moral compass.

Apples and oranges. God knows the entire history, including past and future lives, of the individuals being tortured and degraded. The parent in your example does not.

 

[idea]

They aren't. Only those that accept God's grace are saved.

So, if the abused kid becomes angry through their experience and is fearful of authority figures - doesn't accept the God who left him to suffer and die, they go to hell...

The abuser who lived in luxury worries about nothing, is thankful for God allowing them to do whatever they want, and goes to heaven?

 

[ppp]

Apples and oranges. God knows the entire history, including past and future lives, of the individuals being tortured and degraded. The parent in your example does not.

So, its okay to torture and degrade someone if you know their future?
What a weird and disturbing defense for abuse.

 

[dybmh]

So, its okay to torture and degrade someone if you know their future?
What a weird and disturbing defense for abuse.

Given unlimited lives, the abuse could be justified. It's impossible to judge God's morality. Not enough information. Not only that, but the abused also now has the opportunity for a great reward. Let's not forget that if I'm right the one who is abusing will incur a great punishment as well.

 

[Wildswanderer]

So, if the abused kid becomes angry through their experience and is fearful of authority figures - doesn't accept the God who left him to suffer and die, they go to hell...

The abuser who lived in luxury worries about nothing, is thankful for God allowing them to do whatever they want, and goes to heaven?

Same old, same old.
No one gets heaven by being good enough to deserve it.
And if a person is mad at God or an unrepentant abusive person he would not want to be in the presence of God, anyway.

 

[idea]

Same old, same old.
No one gets heaven by being good enough to deserve it.
And if a person is mad at God or an unrepentant abusive person he would not want to be in the presence of God, anyway.

Your God is evil, and will be surrounded by those who are also evil then. Those who believe in such evil I am also guarded around, for good reason, and from experience.
No anger towards those who are mentally ill.
If there was a god who knowing and did nothing, I would be justifiably angry at that entity.
Thankfully, there is no such being, only the laws of nature.

 

[ppp]

Given unlimited lives, the abuse could be justified.

You lack a moral compass.

It's impossible to judge God's morality.

If you are incapable of judging your god's morality, your opinion on the matter can have neither foundation nor merit. You are literally telling us that you cannot evaluate your god, than trying to present your evaluation as something we should take seriously.

 

[dybmh]

You lack a moral compass.

If you are incapable of judging your god's morality, your opinion on the matter can have neither foundation nor merit. You are literally telling us that you cannot evaluate your god, than trying to present your evaluation as something we should take seriously.

OK.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Your God is evil, and will be surrounded by those who are also evil then. Those who believe in such evil I am also guarded around, for good reason, and from experience.
No anger towards those who are mentally ill.
If there was a god who knowing and did nothing, I would be justifiably angry at that entity.
Thankfully, there is no such being, only the laws of nature.

God is evil for extending grace or for not forcing people to go to heaven?
I don't understand what you mean by anger towards the mentally ill. God loves them.
People who want to blame God for allowing evil are mistaken. If he didn't allow evil, he couldn't allow love.
You know, my wife had a sometimes abusive father. He was also a believer, but one who struggled through his life because of his own messed up past and the people who abused him. Should I hate him now that he's dead and experiencing heaven? Or should I remember all the good things he did also?

 

[KWED]

Nope, you might think that's love, but it's not.

Your opinion has been noted.