Another Baptist minister bites the dust- gets caught

[ImmortalFlame]

God will deal with His own. They will not get away with it.

Well, it must be very gratifying to believe in and worship a being who will gladly sit by and watch children being molested by people who are supposed to be his worldly representatives, and then only actually act on them after the fact (unless they are redeemed or forgiven in some way).

 

[sooda]

And your point is....?

Good-Ole-Rebel

It means the Jews despised the Samaritans and thought they were fake Jews. You seem to be doing the same thing.

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

Well, it must be very gratifying to believe in and worship a being who will gladly sit by and watch children being molested by people who are supposed to be his worldly representatives, and then only actually act on them after the fact (unless they are redeemed or forgiven in some way).

Your use of words, 'gratifying' and 'gladly' to paint your picture of the believer and God is dishonest. Why should I be 'gratified' at the molestation of children? What makes you think God is 'glad'? You simply paint God as you see Him.

I am glad to know that God does see it all. And all will be accounted for. There is judgement in this life as well as the other.

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[sooda]

Your use of words, 'gratifying' and 'gladly' to paint your picture of the believer and God is dishonest. Why should I be 'gratified' at the molestation of children? What makes you think God is 'glad'? You simply paint God as you see Him.

I am glad to know that God does see it all. And all will be accounted for. There is judgement in this life as well as the other.

Good-Ole-Rebel

Children who are molested often become molesters when they grow up. Let's assume God sees that too.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Your use of words, 'gratifying' and 'gladly' to paint your picture of the believer and God is dishonest. Why should I be 'gratified' at the molestation of children?

Well, you worship a being who causes it to happen and takes no active part in preventing it from happening.

What makes you think God is 'glad'? You simply paint God as you see Him.

Actually, I paint him how you describe him. You describe a God who has total power to do whatever they want, and rather than prevent people from molesting children, they will allow them to be molested, observe the whole thing, and allow the perpetrator often to escape without any punishment whatsoever until the end of their life (and even only then if they don't sincerely atone).

I am glad to know that God does see it all. And all will be accounted for. There is judgement in this life as well as the other.

You just kind of proved my point, there. You're happy that God does nothing to prevent children being molested.

DISCLAIMER:
Obviously, I am not claiming G-O-R is in any way approving of child molestation here, despite his mis-characterization of my language. I'm just pointing out the moral dissonance present in morally objecting to child molestation while simultaneously worshiping a God who allows it to happen, and that punishment after the fact (and only conditionally, at that) is not replacement for preventing molestation in the first place.

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

Well, you worship a being who causes it to happen and takes no active part in preventing it from happening.


Actually, I paint him how you describe him. You describe a God who has total power to do whatever they want, and rather than prevent people from molesting children, they will allow them to be molested, observe the whole thing, and allow the perpetrator often to escape without any punishment whatsoever until the end of their life (and even only then if they don't sincerely atone).


You just kind of proved my point, there. You're happy that God does nothing to prevent children being molested.

You don't know the active part God takes and what He prevents.

No, you paint God as you see him. Not how I describe Him. Does God have total power? Yes. That doesn't mean He is glad to see the evil in the world. Do I worship God? Yes. That doesn't mean I am gratified at the evil in the world. As to God's judgement, however He dishes it out, it will be just.

No, I just kinda didn't. I never said God does nothing. You did. Again, you don't know God's active part.

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

Children who are molested often become molesters when they grow up. Let's assume God sees that too.

And your point?

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[ImmortalFlame]

You don't know the active part God takes and what He prevents.

Well, apparently not a lot of child molestations.

No, you paint God as you see him. Not how I describe Him. Does God have total power? Yes. That doesn't mean He is glad to see the evil in the world.

Then he should stop it.

Since he doesn't, he is willfully complicit in the molestation of children.

Do I worship God? Yes. That doesn't mean I am gratified at the evil in the world. As to God's judgement, however He dishes it out, it will be just.

Not according to your Bible. Your God is supposed to be merciful, and even a child molester can be saved and spend eternity in heaven if they sincerely repent on their deathbed.

Well, depending on your take on the scripture, at least. I don't know if you believe in the concept of salvation through grace in this particular way.

No, I just kinda didn't. I never said God does nothing. You did. Again, you don't know God's active part.

God could prevent all children who have ever been molested from ever being molested with literally zero effort.

And yet doesn't.

Why?

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

Well, apparently not a lot of child molestations.


Then he should stop it.

Since he doesn't, he is willfully complicit in the molestation of children.


Not according to your Bible. Your God is supposed to be merciful, and even a child molester can be saved and spend eternity in heaven if they sincerely repent on their deathbed.

Well, depending on your take on the scripture, at least. I don't know if you believe in the concept of salvation through grace in this particular way.


God could prevent all children who have ever been molested from ever being molested with literally zero effort.

And yet doesn't.

Why?

No, you just think He should stop it. When He gets ready to 'stop it' you will be singing a different tune. Because child molestation is just one of many things that are going to stop. Remember the flood. Do you really want Him to stop it now?

Oh yes, according to my Bible. Are you another unbelieving Bible scholar? Seems like there are lots of them here. So which do you want? God of mercy or judgement. He is both.

Yes God could prevent every molestation from ever taking place. He could stop all murders from taking place. He could stop all homosexuals from their lifestyle. He could stop all thieves from stealing. He could stop all non-believers from doubting Him. Not just here, but all over the world.

Why? Because evil is having it's day. And, it is important since the rebellion of satan to let it have it's day. That doesn't mean God does nothing. He does. This was the very reason human governments were established...to curb evil. To restrain it. Before the flood, there was no human government and God had to destroy all of man except 8. Evil is restrained today, but not stopped.

It will one day be stopped, but you won't like that either.

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[ImmortalFlame]

No, you just think He should stop it.

So you don't think it's right to stop children from being molested?

I would say that's basically a requirement for any moral being.

When He gets ready to 'stop it' you will be singing a different tune. Because child molestation is just one of many things that are going to stop.

So it's okay for him to allow it to happen as long as he's GOING to stop it at some point?

Doesn't sound very moral to me.

Remember the flood. Do you really want Him to stop it now?

If all God could do to prevent children being molested was wipe out all life on earth, then God is either a massive, incompetent moron or not really all that powerful (or creative).

Oh yes, according to my Bible. Are you another unbelieving Bible scholar? Seems like there are lots of them here. So which do you want? God of mercy or judgement. He is both.

So do you accept or reject the doctrine of salvation through grace?

Yes God could prevent every molestation from ever taking place. He could stop all murders from taking place. He could stop all homosexuals from their lifestyle. He could stop all thieves from stealing. He could stop all non-believers from doubting Him. Not just here, but all over the world.

The fact that you slide homosexuality in there, as if it is equal to child molestation and murder, is very telling.

Why? Because evil is having it's day. And, it is important since the rebellion of satan to let it have it's day.

Why?

That doesn't mean God does nothing. He does.

But apparently this doesn't involve preventing children from being molested, or their molesters from avoiding punishment.

This was the very reason human governments were established...to curb evil. To restrain it. Before the flood, there was no human government and God had to destroy all of man except 8. Evil is restrained today, but not stopped.

Again, why?

It will one day be stopped, but you won't like that either.

This is a terribly poor argument.

Also, you seem desperate to avoid the obvious logical conclusion that your God is complicit in a great deal of immorality by going all fire and brimstone. But, hey, it's no skin off my nose if you want to worship a being who allows children to be molested. If I had the choice, I'd believe in a moral God.

 

[sooda]

No, you just think He should stop it. When He gets ready to 'stop it' you will be singing a different tune. Because child molestation is just one of many things that are going to stop. Remember the flood. Do you really want Him to stop it now?

Oh yes, according to my Bible. Are you another unbelieving Bible scholar? Seems like there are lots of them here. So which do you want? God of mercy or judgement. He is both.

Yes God could prevent every molestation from ever taking place. He could stop all murders from taking place. He could stop all homosexuals from their lifestyle. He could stop all thieves from stealing. He could stop all non-believers from doubting Him. Not just here, but all over the world.

Why? Because evil is having it's day. And, it is important since the rebellion of satan to let it have it's day. That doesn't mean God does nothing. He does. This was the very reason human governments were established...to curb evil. To restrain it. Before the flood, there was no human government and God had to destroy all of man except 8. Evil is restrained today, but not stopped.

It will one day be stopped, but you won't like that either.

Good-Ole-Rebel

Government of the Ancient Sumerians. The Ancient Sumerians were the first creators of a real, organized government. Their type of government was a monarchy. There were twelve city-states. Each one had a different king and style of life. The king/ruler had advisors to help him with his ruling.

Back then, the kings were called lugals. The kings were responsible for constructing buildings/temples, maintaining city borders and irrigation systems, as well as enforcing the law. At times of war, the king would lead the army. Although the king did a lot and had a lot of power, they could not act as dictators. As the government grew more complex, the king would hire someone called a scribe. A scribe would collect the taxes and keep records for the government. There were priests who were the largest landowners and sometimes became scribes for the king. In some city-states, the priests would sit with the council of elders. The council of elders had a lot of power and they sometimes conflicted with the king. These priests were very powerful because they were the only ones who knew the will of the gods. All the citizens had to pay taxes. The method the government used to collect taxes was to take a certain amount of crops that they could either sell for money or feed their troops.

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

So you don't think it's right to stop children from being molested?

I would say that's basically a requirement for any moral being.


So it's okay for him to allow it to happen as long as he's GOING to stop it at some point?

Doesn't sound very moral to me.


If all God could do to prevent children being molested was wipe out all life on earth, then God is either a massive, incompetent moron or not really all that powerful (or creative).


So do you accept or reject the doctrine of salvation through grace?


The fact that you slide homosexuality in there, as if it is equal to child molestation and murder, is very telling.


Why?


But apparently this doesn't involve preventing children from being molested, or their molesters from avoiding punishment.


Again, why?


This is a terribly poor argument.

Also, you seem desperate to avoid the obvious logical conclusion that your God is complicit in a great deal of immorality by going all fire and brimstone. But, hey, it's no skin off my nose if you want to worship a being who allows children to be molested. If I had the choice, I'd believe in a moral God.

As I said, when He stops it, it will be world wide. There is not just one child molester.

Yes, I hold to salvation by grace.

Homosexuality with all other perversions and sins will be stopped. See, I told you wouldn't like it.

Concerning your why: Because God is dealing with rebellion and sin on not just a local or national scale, or even on a world scale. He is dealing with it on a universal scale involving not just man but angels as well.

God is not 'complicit' in that He aligns Himself with those who do evil. In the overall picture He is responsible for it all, as it is all part of His plan in dealing with evil. God is neither moral or immoral. That pertains to man. God is just in what He does. And what He is doing is just. Yes, I do and will worship God and Christ.

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[ImmortalFlame]

As I said, when He stops it, it will be world wide. There is not just one child molester.

As I said, that makes God exceedingly stupid or weak.

Yes, I hold to salvation by grace.

So then you must believe that not all child molesters will be punished, and some will even be granted eternity in heaven and never face any negative repercussions for their crimes.

Homosexuality with all other perversions and sins will be stopped. See, I told you wouldn't like it.

I imagine your religion will go with it, then.

I assume you won't like that.

Concerning your why: Because God is dealing with rebellion and sin on not just a local or national scale, or even on a world scale. He is dealing with it on a universal scale involving not just man but angels as well.

And God isn't powerful enough to deal with it?

Is he encumbered with paperwork?

God is not 'complicit' in that He aligns Himself with those who do evil.

Sure doesn't seem like that. If you heard that I was aware of a child being molested, and instead of doing anything about it I just sat and watched and let the molester go free and, on his deathbed, told him I would tell his family and the police what he did unless he paid me some money, and he does so, so I don't tell anyone - would you say I was complicit in what that child molester did?

In the overall picture He is responsible for it all, as it is all part of His plan in dealing with evil.

Then he is responsible for children being molested, and is immoral.

God is neither moral or immoral. That pertains to man. God is just in what He does. And what He is doing is just. Yes, I do and will worship God and Christ.

So you worship an immoral agent.

Gotcha.

 

[Spartan]

As I said, that makes God exceedingly stupid or weak.

That's baloney.

So, let's let you be God for the moment when God creates man. And the question for you:

How would you - as god - create man with free will and not allow him to do evil if he chooses?

Answer the question?

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Why should I tell you again when you will just say you don't believe the Bible?

This, right here, that you said is so perfect. Yes! Don't say it again... because I don't believe in The Bible. That's great, great stuff. Since I do not believe, The Bible becomes useless as a talking point between us. This is as it should be in all dealings with non-Christians. You should use this as your go-to mode of behavior. Leave The Bible out of it. It is not relevant for those who do not believe. Not relevant.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

That's baloney.

So, let's let you be God for the moment when God creates man. And the question for you:

How would you - as god - create man with free will and not allow him to do evil if he chooses?

Answer the question?

Any way that I want. I'm all-powerful and omnipotent, so I can literally create anything. Including beings with free will who have no evil intent.

If I am God, I can simply create the totality of existence without the concept or possibility of evil, so having total and complete free will can exist in a Universe without evil.

To illustrate, imagine this is the totality of existence:

[TOTALITY OF EXISTENCE]

And this represents the presence of evil within existence:

[TOTALITY OF EXISTENCE [EVIL] ]

And this represents free will encompassing all possible perspectives and states:

[TOTALITY OF EXISTENCE [EVIL] ]
<---------------FREE WILL-------------->

And finally, this represents things outside of the totality of existence:

[TOTALITY OF EXISTENCE [EVIL] ] [THINGS OUTSIDE OF EXISTENCE]
<---------------FREE WILL-------------->

All I would need to do is this:

[TOTALITY OF EXISTENCE] [THINGS OUTSIDE OF EXISTENCE [EVIL] ]
<----------FREE WILL---------->

See how free will still encompasses the totality of existence? It would not be hard for an omnipotent, all-knowing being to do this.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

As I said, go to the thread "Nikki Haley" and read what I have posted there. I am more than willing to discuss it with you there. If you don't want to do that, it just shows you for the empty vessel you are.

Good-Ole-Rebel

There is absolutely NO EXCUSE to be proudly displaying a FLAG THAT SUPPORTS RACISM.

That is the SOLE reason for it's existence. Your EXCUSES do not fly.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

I don't care..

I know-- racists such as yourself, don't care about pesky things like Human Rights.

My point was to show you that you didn't know what you were talking about when you said Jesus and God were not racist. Which I did.\

And I absolutely, definitively, proved how RACIST your gods are!

BUT YOU DON'T CARE.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

No, I just kinda didn't. I never said God does nothing. You did. Again, you don't know God's active part.

Then anything He does, He does in secret, and with a simple thought experiment I can easily display why this is not an intelligent (nor good) way to go about things.

Let's say my son does well in school, getting straight A grades. Instead of congratulating him verbally, and making sure any rewards I give him are directly tied to the act of his that I approved of, I instead deposit a $5 bill on the road for him to find on his walk to school the next day. No words are exchanged, he has no idea that I even approved of his good grades, because I said nothing about it. Does this make me a "good" parent?​

And the converse - punishment instead of reward. Let's say I see my daughter smoking with friends from afar, and I disapprove. Instead of confronting her and letting he know what it is I disapprove of before dealing out some form of punishment, I instead decide to plant live spiders in her bed that night before she goes to sleep. Again, no words are exchanged on the subject, and she can have literally no idea why the spiders are in her bed. Does this sound like something that a "good" parent would do?​

The above two examples are basically mirrors to how your claim paints God's activities as a dealer of reward/punishment. If God exists and is acting in the way you describe, then it is done in secret, and He never actually informs you of your "crime." He would only ever have to expect that you could draw your own conclusions... but will you get it right? Will you know the actual behavior you are being punished for with that tornado that rips your house apart? Will you know what you are being praised for when you get that good job or when it stops raining at that perfect moment so that you can walk out to your car from the store without getting wet?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

There is absolutely NO EXCUSE to be proudly displaying a FLAG THAT SUPPORTS RACISM.

That is the SOLE reason for it's existence. Your EXCUSES do not fly.

Out of interest, I went and read the thread he brings up as his argument against the claim that flag supports racism and slavery, and it's hilarious.

His argument is basically "The south owned slaves and wanted to keep them because they were financially profitable. The north wanted to financially decimate the south and were afraid they were going to secede, and that's why they suddenly became anti-slavery to destroy the south's economy. Thus, the war wasn't about slavery".

Or, to put it more simply:

"The war wasn't about slavery, it was about the south really wanting to own slaves."

SOURCE: Nikki Haley

I mean, we can see the flaw in that argument, right?

 

[Spartan]

Any way that I want. I'm all-powerful and omnipotent, so I can literally create anything. Including beings with free will who have no evil intent.

If I am God, I can simply create the totality of existence without the concept or possibility of evil, so having total and complete free will can exist in a Universe without evil.

Nope. A man cannot have free will and not be allowed to do evil. He would be a pre-programmed robot.