Anti-gay baker now takes stand against birthdays for trans people

[Shadow Wolf]

As for discrimination laws and the Civil rights laws; they must take 2nd place to the 1st amendment.

That isn't how the law has been established. "Religious beliefs" was an excuse to keep Jim Crow going, but it didn't hold in court.

 

[stvdv]

As for the transgender person they wanted the baker to make them a cake celebrating their status as a transgender person. It actually did violate the man's conscience because he can't celebrate it what he personally thinks is wrong. If it was just a normal birthday cake that would be completely different obviously.

You have a different definition of "conscience" than I have. What you describe here I just call discrimination, I don't call it conscience. There is a difference.
Conscience: You use your discrimination power before you take an action [introspection, examining yourself].
Discriminating others: You belittle/demean the belief/feeling of the other [pointing the finger at others, examining others]. Criticizing being. Ad Hominem Attack.

So the english language uses the same word "discriminate" with 2 very different meanings. To be a respectful person it is essential to know when to use which.

Conscience is about "Criticizing actions"
Discriminating others is about "Criticizing their being/feeling/belief" = Ad Hominem Attack

 

[Mister Emu]

It did not help this one time, though.

Well, I tried. Can't help people not understanding after being told directly.

He shouldn't put himself into a position that would potentially compromise his beliefs.

So far he hasn't. He's been upfront with people about what he won't support and those laws haven't been able to force him to do so, yet.

 

[InChrist]

He needs to return, the end of days needs to happen, and the rapture must happen to fulfill the contract. The old laws still stand until those things happen.

According to the scriptures the law is fulfilled completely by Christ, as He said. "It is finished". Yet, for those apart from Christ the law still stands.
This is getting off topic, though, from the OP.

 

[stvdv]

Asking instead of trying to muddle your way into someone's head when you have no way to accomplish it is much better at creating understanding.

I agree with this

So far he hasn't. He's been upfront with people about what he won't support and those laws haven't been able to force him to do so, yet.

That is true. And this example in the OP is useful to make people aware of all kind of feelings

Christian Baker: Making a Birthday Cake for a Trans Woman Violates My Faith
Question: If you were a baker would you refuse "Making a Birthday Cake for a Trans Woman"?
Question: If you were a baker would you refuse "Making a Transition Cake for a Trans Woman"?

 

[Father Heathen]

Honestly, like I said... it's complicated. I really don't know. My guess is it would be okay, but the thing is, I don't like tea of any kind, so I've never really bothered to try to find a loophole so that I could drink it guilt-free. I do love wine, though, and so far, there's no wiggle room on wine.

"Go, eat your food with gladness, and drink your wine with a joyful heart, for God has already approved what you do." - Ecclesiastes 9:7

"He makes grass grow for the cattle, and plants for people to cultivate— bringing forth food from the earth: wine that gladdens human hearts, oil to make their faces shine, and bread that sustains their hearts." - Psalm 104:14-15

"Jesus said to the servants, “Fill the jars with water”; so they filled them to the brim. Then he told them, “Now draw some out and take it to the master of the banquet.” They did so, and the master of the banquet tasted the water that had been turned into wine. He did not realize where it had come from, though the servants who had drawn the water knew."​

 

[stvdv]

1: He shouldn't put himself into a position that would potentially compromise his beliefs.
2: He can have religious objections to inter racial marriage, as some Christians do, but he would not be legally allowed to discriminate against such a couple.

1: Being in the world "not put yourself in that position" is impossible I think. Being in these positions give us the opportunity to learn more about ourselves, so it's a good thing.
2: Exactly. He wants to be respected for his choice "not to enter into a racial marriage", so he should respect others for their choice "to do enter into a racial marriage"

Personally I would not force a baker doing something he does not want. I would go and find a baker "who does not discriminate". I don't want to eat his discriminating thoughts.
And when all people do this, he will be finished as a baker anyway. If people go and buy there it means they don't care so much about him discriminating.
Just saw this video. Straight people in the video decided also to find another baker when finding out the baker was discriminating gay people.

 

[Cacotopia]

According to the scriptures the law is fulfilled completely by Christ, as He said. "It is finished". Yet, for those apart from Christ the law still stands.
This is getting off topic, though, from the OP.

yeah it is, I was gonna post that I don't wanna do a thread hijacking.

 

[Cacotopia]

1: Being in the world "not put yourself in that position" is impossible I think. Being in these positions give us the opportunity to learn more about ourselves, so it's a good thing.
2: Exactly. He wants to be respected for his choice "not to enter into a racial marriage", so he should respect others for their choice "to do enter into a racial marriage"

Personally I would not force a baker doing something he does not want. I would go and find a baker "who does not discriminate". I don't want to eat his discriminating thoughts.
And when all people do this, he will be finished as a baker anyway. If people go and buy there it means they don't care so much about him discriminating.
Just saw this video. Straight people in the video decided also to find another baker when finding out the baker was discriminating gay people.

Urrybody discriminates against someone else.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Did you even read the article?

Yep.

Do you even remember your own words I was quoting with my question?

 

[Deeje]

Call me silly, but I'm pretty sure Jesus would have baked the cake and then sat down to enjoy it with it's recipient in celebration of their birthday.

OK...I'll call you silly if you insist.....

Your assumption would be wrong actually because Jesus never celebrated his own birthday or anyone else's for that matter.
Jews were forbidden to adopt the practices of people of the nations and that included anything linked to spiritism.
He told Israel....
"When you have entered into the land that Jehovah your God is giving you, you must not learn to imitate the detestable practices of those nations. 10 There should not be found in you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, anyone who employs divination, anyone practicing magic, anyone who looks for omens, a sorcerer, 11 anyone binding others with a spell, anyone who consults a spirit medium or a fortune-teller, or anyone who inquires of the dead. 12 For whoever does these things is detestable to Jehovah, and on account of these detestable practices Jehovah your God is driving them away from before you."

Since the celebration of birthdays was something connected to astrology, the date of one's birth was used to cast their horoscope...which is a predicting of the future. The candles on the birthday cake were originally tapers used to keep evil spirits at bay as were the "wishes" for the birthday child.

Historian William S.Walsh in his book Curiosities of Popular Customs, quotes from early Christian writings on the subject, saying: “Thus Origen, in a homily on Leviticus xii 2, assures his hearers that ‘none of the saints can be found who ever held a feast or a banquet upon his birthday, or rejoiced on the day when his son or his daughter was born. But sinners rejoice and make merry on such days.”’

M’Clintock and Strong’s Cyclopædia points out that “In the Bible there is no instance of birthday celebrations among the Jews themselves,” adding: “In fact, the later Jews at least regarded birthday celebrations as parts of idolatrous worship.”

Encyclopaedia Judaica says: “The celebration of birthdays is unknown in traditional Jewish ritual.”

Customs and Traditions of Israel observes: “The celebration of birthdays has been borrowed from the practices of other nations, as no mention is made of this custom among Jews either in The Bible, Talmud, or writings of the later Sages. In fact, it was an ancient Egyptian custom.”

Nuff said? Don't get me started on Christmas.....

 

[Apologes]

Wasn't it originally just about marriage?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You're right the word is conscience.

As for the transgender person they wanted the baker to make them a cake celebrating their status as a transgender person. It actually did violate the man's conscience because he can't celebrate it what he personally thinks is wrong. If it was just a normal birthday cake that would be completely different obviously.

It was just a normal birthday cake, entirely in line with what they say they offer. The customer chose a flavour/colour for the cake - as the shop’s web site says they’ll do - and an icing colour - again, as the shop’s web site says they’ll do. As far as I know, the order wasn’t for any text or decoration. The only thing that made it a “transgender” cake is what the customer said about how it would be used.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

You're right the word is conscience.

As for the transgender person they wanted the baker to make them a cake celebrating their status as a transgender person. It actually did violate the man's conscience because he can't celebrate it what he personally thinks is wrong. If it was just a normal birthday cake that would be completely different obviously.

The baker isn't obliged or paid to give his opinion or his views as part of the service he offers - particularly when someone being transgender isn't inherently harmful.

 

[Jainarayan]

Correct, Jesus didn't make a new contract. He completely fulfilled the original as no ever could or ever can.

So then the Old Law still stands... shellfish and poly/cotton blends are still an abomination, his assurance to the disciples that there is no unclean food notwithstanding. So which is it? Is he contradicting himself?

 

[Jainarayan]

Yet, for those apart from Christ the law still stands.

That's ridiculous, and is cherry-picking at its finest. You made that up. If I use the word I want to use it will get filtered out and lose its punch. So I have to settle for 'ridiculous'.

 

[Stevicus]

As a general comment about this topic, I have to say that it's truly amazing that this thread less than 24 hours old, yet already up to 12 pages and over 200 posts. This is one of those issues where I think of the phrase "only in America could something like this be a major issue."

There are many people who don't even have enough to eat at all, yet everyone is worried about cake.

As for the baker and his supporters, I honestly don't believe for a second that this has anything to do with their religious convictions. Realizing that religious texts contain many lists of infractions and sins - and the fact that there are so many "sinners" out there of every variety - one has to wonder why they're so selective about what sins they'll oppose and which ones they'll let go.

On the other side of it, I'm sure there are plenty of bakers who would be more than willing to bake wedding cakes for gay couples. It's also possible to still get married without a wedding cake; it's just a luxury and an affectation - it's not absolutely necessary. So, the refusal to sell a wedding cake does not, in and of itself, prevent the couple from getting married.

So, there's one or two bakers out there who apparently have a problem with gay people and don't want to sell them cake. Sure it's blatant discrimination, and I'm sure a righteous grievance and a case can be made against them.

But why pick this particular battle? After seeing the video above with a camera crew with the "fake lesbians" going into a shop to order a cake, it makes me think there are those who are actively looking behind every bush and under every rock - trying to find someone who doesn't conform. ("Aha! We got one!") My understanding is that the transwoman in this case deliberately chose that cake shop just to make a point - or perhaps to gain attention or stir up unnecessary drama which America doesn't really need more of right now.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

But why pick this particular battle?

It's the thin edge of the wedge. Nobody will die without cake, but they may die without other things provided by businesses (housing or employment, for instance). Establishing that a business has the right to be religiously hateful about a cake can serve as a precedent that a business has the right to be religiously hateful about, say, renting out an apartment, offering someone a job, giving them access to credit, and on, and on.

My understanding is that the transwoman in this case deliberately chose that cake shop just to make a point - or perhaps to gain attention or stir up unnecessary drama which America doesn't really need more of right now.

What's wrong with that? It's right out of the civil rights playbook to test businesses to see if they're following the law after they've been ordered to do so.

Would you have the same objection to, say, a black person who tried ordering lunch at a formerly segregated restaurant to see if they had really decided to obey the law?

 

[viole]

It's not a trans person's birthday is wrong but because the cake was celebrating what to him violates his conscious. It's nothing personal. Not sure why liberals don't understand it's not personal. Just a matter of conscious.

I think you are confusing conscious with discrimination. That guy is discriminating. Period. And faith has always zero priority when compared with secular duties in a modern society.

Suppose I make up yet another new variant of Christianity that think that black people are not pure (Mormonism started slightly like that, so it is not so out of bound). Now suppose that a lot of people embrace this new religion, and black people cannot buy any cake anymore, or buy anything at all.

Would you be fine with that? If not, why not? Do you respect restrictions in places like Iran or Sudan that are mainly officially motivated by faith?

It is just conscious, after all. And faith should be respected, no matter how ridiculous, right? Because the irrational belief in imaginary homophobic beings deserves much more respect than the birthday of a trans, or the happiness of a gay couple.

Right?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Personally I would not force a baker doing something he does not want. I would go and find a baker "who does not discriminate".

And I say they need to stop crying and whining and demanding special privileges. We are supposed to all be equal under the law, not earning brownie points and special treatment because of the myths we believe.