Cacotopia
Let's go full Trottle
He needs to return, the end of days needs to happen, and the rapture must happen to fulfill the contract. The old laws still stand until those things happen.
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Anti-gay baker now takes stand against birthdays for trans people
- Thread starter 9-10ths_Penguin
- Start date
He needs to return, the end of days needs to happen, and the rapture must happen to fulfill the contract. The old laws still stand until those things happen.
I think it’s telling that you see “slapping someone with a metal pipe” as analogous to baking a cake for a transgender “coming out” anniversary.
Yep, and I also think baking a birthday cake for commercial purposes is analogous to giving $1000 to charity.
This is already so sad it is funny, so do tell, what does it say?
Orbit
I'm a planet
The Mormons I knew eschewed caffeine
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
The Civil Rights Act and anti-discrimination laws don't give a damn about personal religious beliefs in the public sector. It was a "matter of conscious" to keep racial segregation going, and to even keep slavery going, both with Christians supporting their "sincerely held religious beliefs" to discriminate and dominate others.
The Klan is a Christian group, but it would be illegal for a Klansman to run a "whites only" shop.
The law tends to be rather finicky and selective when it comes to refusing service. You can't even call it a freedom because legally the ability to refuse service does not give business broad sweeping abilities to discriminate.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Spoken like someone who doesn't even want to try to understand. Good for you, I suppose, to not have to know how emotionally involved coming out is. It's actually not uncommon for someone who is transgender to mark a new birthday that revolves around significant dates in their transition rather than celebrating it on the day that began years of pain and suffering.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Well, that was a choice they made because of an inaccurate assumption on their part. Mormons are not supposed to drink tea or coffee, but it's not because of the caffeine, and caffeine itself is not prohibited. It's complicated
and is one of my personal pet peeves.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Exactly that! Except I was thinking more he can go throw himself into an active volcano.
Whodda thunk a long haired hippy would act like a long haired hippy?
Even with birthdays age has largely stayed away from me enough that today someone said they thought I'm 19, and recently at a local concert this girl assumed I don't drink much because I'm 17. So, I'm not aging much anyways. It must be because that baker doesn't want transgender to get older, and enjoy life some with some youth left, and he prayed to god really really really super hard that we wouldn't age and because he believes it and doesn't want us to get old he doesn't want us to have birthdays.
That some people hold strange conceptions of respect towards other people, perhaps.
Father Heathen
Veteran Member
Well, that was a choice they made because of an inaccurate assumption on their part. Mormons are not supposed to drink tea or coffee, but it's not because of the caffeine, and caffeine itself is not prohibited. It's complicated
Does that also go for herbal tea, which is made from plants other than the actual tea plant (camellia)?
74x12
Well-Known Member
Oh the irony; you're supposedly against slavery but you're for forcing someone to work for someone else.
As for discrimination laws and the Civil rights laws; they must take 2nd place to the 1st amendment. The 1st amendment is first because it's the most important. This amendment along with freedom of speech guarantees the free practice of religion.
I wouldn't expect a Muslim to make a cake about Jesus Christ being Lord or whatever. I wouldn't even expect an atheist to do so; if they didn't want to do so. I wouldn't expect a Jewish butcher shop to sell me some pork. But my point is all religious people should be free to practice their own religion whether other people like it or not.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Honestly, like I said... it's complicated. I really don't know. My guess is it would be okay, but the thing is, I don't like tea of any kind, so I've never really bothered to try to find a loophole so that I could drink it guilt-free.
I do love wine, though, and so far, there's no wiggle room on wine.
It has nothing to do with understanding, and the idea that if we just understood each other we'd all get along and agree is myopic. I could understand every bit of pain that not being the gender you feel you are causes, and all of the emotional burden that brings, and the terrifying weight of publicly transitioning and still object to the idea that a person can transition.
Whether I object to baking such a cake is immaterial and has not been addressed, the baker has a religious objection in his heart to providing for a transition celebration, not a birthday one. That is a fact.
Might I ask how you got there? Or, alternatively, might you ask why I chose the analogy I did?
I very much doubt it.
Immaterial even if true, which is tentative at best.
By trying to make sense of your analogy.
All right: why did you?
I like hyperbole and exaggeration for effect. I picked two things where one was absurdly objectionable, and one was greatly desirable. This in order to highlight the obvious in the lie that was originally presented.
They are only analogous in that, presumably, one is objectionable and one is not.
Asking instead of trying to muddle your way into someone's head when you have no way to accomplish it is much better at creating understanding.
stvdv
Veteran Member
I think you are the one who does not understand something very crucial here. First of all the word is "conscience", not "conscious". Secondly it is personal.
The meaning of "conscience" has to do how you feel about your actions. It has nothing to do with actions of others. Unless they impose something on you.
If a Christian imposes his belief on me saying "you go to hell unless you believe in Jesus" it's wrong [emotional blackmail]. Just tell "I go to hell if I don't believe in Jesus". Don't include me.
Now the example in this OP: Christian Baker: Making a Birthday Cake for a Trans Woman Violates My Faith
This is just pure discrimination IMO. And it is "Very Personal". The baker imposes his belief on the "trans woman". Serving her or not has nothing to do with his conscience .
A correct example of conscience would be:
1) A customer (trans, gay, straight) asks to put meat in it (red, blue whatever color). Now he has the right to say NO IF for example he is a vegetarian (not wanting to kill animals)
2) A customer (trans, gay, straight) asks to put an obscene picture/creation on top of the cake. Now he has the right to say NO [he tells this to all customers]
@9-10ths_Penguin: I hope this clarifies what I said earlier about seeing "other points" when I should be allowed to say NO (this would be a NO to any customer)
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It did not help this one time, though. Now I find myself wondering why you went out of your way to shoot yourself on the foot.
74x12
Well-Known Member
You're right the word is conscience.
As for the transgender person they wanted the baker to make them a cake celebrating their status as a transgender person. It actually did violate the man's conscience because he can't celebrate it what he personally thinks is wrong. If it was just a normal birthday cake that would be completely different obviously.
I don't even know whether I hope that you are sincere. This that you just said is, at best, totally nuts.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
He shouldn't put himself into a position that would potentially compromise his beliefs. There are already laws in place that basically so "oh well." He can have religious objections to inter racial marriage, as some Christians do, but he would not be legally allowed to discriminate against such a couple. He can have a religious objection to making handicapped accommodations, but under certain situations he would be required to make them.