Anti-gay baker now takes stand against birthdays for trans people

[Mindmaster]

The problem is: regardless of what you work with, there will be restraints on what you can do. It is part of the job. If you don't like the restraints you shouldn't work on that field. Nobody promised absolute freedom.

Well, you're free to work where you want... But, the law is real clear on business obligations - you take the money and even a verbal agreement is a contract. You have a duty at that point to give the customer what they were expecting to the best of your ability at that point.

 

[InChrist]

Who says? What's the statute? State, federal, local, what?

No statute, QuestioningMind's example says it..." If I have a birthday cake in which I also want to celebrate my 7th year of sobriety

and

The person who ordered the cake says.. "She told employees it was to celebrate her birthday and the seventh anniversary of when she came out as transgender."

 

[InChrist]

Neither of which are anything illegal, and neither of which would require anything outside the company’s normal range of offerings.

I never indicated it was illegal.

 

[Shad]

Was it just a birthday cake? The article reads..."She told employees it was to celebrate her birthday and the seventh anniversary of when she came out as transgender." Had this person simply called and ordered a birthday cake I doubt there would be an issue.

Maybe. Even if that information was not provided over the phone pick up of the product could be an issue. Hypothetically the customer in question is not "passable" thus looks like they are in drag. The Baker looks at the design and the customer then puts 2 and 2 together.

The whole idea of limiting information exchange for business can be problematic socially and in business. It places a burden on a customer to ensure information and/or acts which can offend a business are hidden. Multiple that by an unknown number of businesses and an unknown amount of owner policies places a burden of research by the customer for simple business interactions. After all if the customer does not have as much information as possible there is a greater chance of offense thus no business interaction. It is far easier to have business regulations which are applicable to all business than burdening the customers in case of someone's old belief which is at odd with social to business norms.

Hypothetical. A baker rejects Christian marriage as a legitimate form of marriage. Would you hide your religion in order to get a wedding cake?

 

[InChrist]

One of which is a birthday, making it a birthday cake. But of course what anyone may or may not choose to celebrate with the cake they buy is really irrelevant. It's nothing more than a pastry and any additional significance someone decides to place on that pastry is completely up to them. This baker is attempting to make himself far more significant than he actually is.

Yeah, anyone can celebrate whatever they want to with their birthday cake, it's just a cake, as you say. But why did the person make a point to state that the cake was also for the "seventh anniversary of when she came out as transgender'?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Yeah, anyone can celebrate whatever they want to with their birthday cake, it's just a cake, as you say. But why did the person make a point to state that the cake was also for the "seventh anniversary of when she came out as transgender'?

Two reasons, first because that is what she was doing. The second was that this baker was a good bet to break that law again, and since the state hopefully cleaned up its act the law would pass constitutional muster the second time around.

 

[InChrist]

Maybe. Even if that information was not provided over the phone pick up of the product could be an issue. Hypothetically the customer in question is not "passable" thus looks like they are in drag. The Baker looks at the design and the customer then puts 2 and 2 together.

The whole idea of limiting information exchange for business can be problematic socially and in business. It places a burden on a customer to ensure information and/or acts which can offend a business are hidden. Multiple that by an unknown number of businesses and an unknown amount of owner policies places a burden of research by the customer for simple business interactions. After all if the customer does not have as much information as possible there is a greater chance of offense thus no business interaction. It is far easier to have business regulations which are applicable to all business than burdening the customers in case of someone's old belief which is at odd with social to business norms.

Hypothetical. A baker rejects Christian marriage as a legitimate form of marriage. Would you hide your religion in order to get a wedding cake?

I highly doubt that there was any "unknown" for customer Autumn Scardina, a Denver attorney, when she chose to call Masterpiece Cakeshop, owned by Jack Phillips after the long, high profile court case which recently took place.

I don't know that most Christians announce they are having a Christian marriage when ordering a cake, but if I came across a baker who refused to make a cake for a Christian wedding I would simply try another bakery.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I never indicated it was illegal.

I didn't say you did. I was just trying to cover a common-sense reason why they might refuse to make some conceivable cakes.

 

[ecco]

I weigh on religion more because it is explicitly protected in the 1st Amendment while the others are not.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof​

I think that means you can go to any church you want and to pray any way you want any time you want.

You seem to think it gives people the right to own slaves. Owning slaves is expressly permitted in the bible.

Do you also think you can freely exercise your religious right to stone adulterers?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I don't know that most Christians announce they are having a Christian marriage when ordering a cake, but if I came across a baker who refused to make a cake for a Christian wedding I would simply try another bakery.

... because there's no shortage of bakeries that will make a cake for a Christian wedding.

It can be very different for an LGBTQ person.

Even moreso (and even more critically) when it comes to things like housing or employment.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Yeah, anyone can celebrate whatever they want to with their birthday cake, it's just a cake, as you say. But why did the person make a point to state that the cake was also for the "seventh anniversary of when she came out as transgender'?

To see if the baker would break the law, I presume. Is there a problem with that?

 

[ecco]

I am totally with you.
Why would a queer ask for something that they know a bigot doesn't want to do?

The most plausible explanation I can think of is that the queer wanted to indulge their victimhood.
How about queers stop doing that. How about that?
Tom

Perhaps "the queer" and the transgender did it to force the issue into another eventual SCOTUS decision.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Perhaps "the queer" and the transgender did it to force the issue into another eventual SCOTUS decision.

That is my opinion since the reason that this same baker won the first time around was because the state had applied the law unevenly, not because the law itself was unconstitutional.

 

[InChrist]

... because there's no shortage of bakeries that will make a cake for a Christian wedding.

It can be very different for an LGBTQ person.

Even moreso (and even more critically) when it comes to things like housing or employment.

I really doubt there is any shortage of bakeries that would make cakes for LGBTQ weddings, or even a problem when it comes to housing or employment, unless you are referring to extremely rural areas.

 

[QuestioningMind]

Yeah, anyone can celebrate whatever they want to with their birthday cake, it's just a cake, as you say. But why did the person make a point to state that the cake was also for the "seventh anniversary of when she came out as transgender'?

I don't know why. Maybe they were just making small talk... maybe they were excited about the celebration... maybe they wanted to see if this guy would refuse to serve them. Who cares? It's nothing more than a pastry and what the person who buys it wants to use it for is irrelevant.

 

[Mister Emu]

Christian Baker: Making a Birthday Cake for a Trans Woman Violates My Faith

I see we moved past being outraged at his religious principles not matching modern progressivism to maliciously lying about him to make it worse.

Why would anyone from the LGBT community still try to give him money after the first fiasco?

They'll keep doing it until either the baker loses or the state stops biting the bullet for them.

Hypothetical. A baker rejects Christian marriage as a legitimate form of marriage. Would you hide your religion in order to get a wedding cake?

If someone had a genuine conviction that made them unable to make a cake for some Christian purpose of mine, I'd be a bit miffed. But, I'd suck it up and go somewhere else. It'd be a ******* of a move to either force them to violate their deep tenets or face a financial penalty or go out of business. I can be an *******, but that is way too far for me.

But why did the person make a point to state that the cake was also for the "seventh anniversary of when she came out as transgender'?

To make sure the baker had something he might object to. I mean, if they'd just ordered a blue on the inside, pink on the outside cake without hammering home that it was for their transiversary, he might have just made it; the horror.

Once again we have a baker not denying service to certain people, but denying services for specific purposes to all people. He wouldn't make a trans-anniversary cake for a straight normal Christian either. He doesn't want to make something for the purpose of supporting what his convictions tell him he can't. It isn't the person, it is the reason.

 

[Shad]

I highly doubt that there was any "unknown" for customer Autumn Scardina, a Denver attorney, when she chose to call Masterpiece Cakeshop, owned by Jack Phillips after the long, high profile court case which recently took place.

Sure. However outside this case would you agree or not?

Are you suggesting persecution rather than prosecution? If so does this intent extend to the customer?

I don't know that most Christians announce they are having a Christian marriage when ordering a cake, but if I came across a baker who refused to make a cake for a Christian wedding I would simply try another bakery.

I've seen enough Christians announce their faith by word, act and clothing in a number of issues not directly tied to a topic of religion. If the contact had a delivery address to a church that information could provide that information. However hypothetically do you agree or not is the situation was reversed? Can religion be a target not only a defense?

 

[Mindmaster]

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof​

I think that means you can go to any church you want and to pray any way you want any time you want.

You seem to think it gives people the right to own slaves. Owning slaves is expressly permitted in the bible.

Do you also think you can freely exercise your religious right to stone adulterers?

I think it means you don't understand the rules of logic.

Just typical straw man argument, hyperbole, and whatnot.

Somewhere in this thread I said something along the lines of, "This issue is too big for local government to decide.. It's something that has to be handled at a constitutional/court level."

 

[Shad]

If someone had a genuine conviction that made them unable to make a cake for some Christian purpose of mine, I'd be a bit miffed. But, I'd suck it up and go somewhere else. It'd be a ******* of a move to either force them to violate their deep tenets or face a financial penalty or go out of business. I can be an *******, but that is way too far for me.

Thanks. Just for clarification can the above be condensed in freedom of association as a business regulation? Any business can choose which people are customers or not and why beyond my religion example? Race, sex, political, class, etc, etc. No government interference. If not, what are the restrictions would you support?

 

[Jainarayan]

No statute, QuestioningMind's example says it..." If I have a birthday cake in which I also want to celebrate my 7th year of sobriety

and

The person who ordered the cake says.. "She told employees it was to celebrate her birthday and the seventh anniversary of when she came out as transgender."

So? To her it is a birthday, a rebirth of sorts. Which I think I said earlier. Rights, personal, legal or otherwise aside, the baker is simply twisting and making a mockery of the religion he is supposed to be holding dear. Honestly, it's disgusting and unconscionable.