Anti-gay baker now takes stand against birthdays for trans people

[Subduction Zone]

He's not the one forcing his beliefs on others. That's entirely the other way around.

His forcing his beliefs on that couple would be, say, him showing up and picketing the wedding, or hanging banners saying "G'd hates f'gs" on the staircase, or vandalizing the wedding clothes....or even attempting to pass a law making gay marriages illegal.

THAT would be forcing his beliefs upon them.

Simply refusing to bake them a cake is not.

Forcing him to bake a cake IS.

You are simply repeating your errors at this point.

 

[dianaiad]

Isn’t that what you’re saying the baker gets to do? His clients all have the same rights — so long as they conform to his ideas of how people ought to be? His rights come first?

That doesn’t sound egalitarian — it sounds like hegemony.

The way to fix this is to a: try to change the baker's mind.
b. shame him culturally.

But if I were the baker (and remember, I WOULD bake the cake. I HAVE 'baked the cake' and have no problem doing so even though I honestly do not believe that same sex marriage is religiously valid in my own faith. It is in theirs and that's what counts for me)....

well, if I were the baker in that situation, hell would freeze over before anybody could force me to bake that cake.

My mother use to tell me this:

"A man convinced against his will....

Is of the same opinion still."

Or rather, a man forced to acts that violate his beliefs isn't going to be a really good convert. Look for acts of sabotage, and I wouldn't blame him a bit.

 

[dianaiad]

You are simply repeating your errors at this point.

Y'know what?

That you think they are errors neither impresses me, nor indicate that they WERE errors in any place but your imagination.

 

[sojourner]

He's not forcing anything at all on them. His refusal to sell them a cake doesn't do anything at all to them.

All it does is make them go elsewhere for a cake baked by someone they are certain won't bake it with chocolated Ex Lax. Their rights are no more affected than if they had walked into his store and found out that he sold Halloween masks instead of wedding cakes.

THEY are the ones imposing their beliefs upon him, by making him do something against his beliefs, in service to theirs.

No. He is forcing thrm Into a position of lesser status, because he’s denying service to them that he would render they were someone else.

 

[sojourner]

The way to fix this is to a: try to change the baker's mind.
b. shame him culturally.

But if I were the baker (and remember, I WOULD bake the cake. I HAVE 'baked the cake' and have no problem doing so even though I honestly do not believe that same sex marriage is religiously valid in my own faith. It is in theirs and that's what counts for me)....

well, if I were the baker in that situation, hell would freeze over before anybody could force me to bake that cake.

My mother use to tell me this:

"A man convinced against his will....

Is of the same opinion still."

Or rather, a man forced to acts that violate his beliefs isn't going to be a really good convert. Look for acts of sabotage, and I wouldn't blame him a bit.

Not looking for a “convert,” just equal treatment.

 

[sojourner]

He's not the one forcing his beliefs on others. That's entirely the other way around.

His forcing his beliefs on that couple would be, say, him showing up and picketing the wedding, or hanging banners saying "G'd hates f'gs" on the staircase, or vandalizing the wedding clothes....or even attempting to pass a law making gay marriages illegal.

THAT would be forcing his beliefs upon them.

Simply refusing to bake them a cake is not.

Forcing him to bake a cake IS.

By refusing to serve their wedding due to “religious beliefs,” he is saying, in effect, “God doesn’t approve of you.” Since Xy is the majority religion, and cis/straight is the majority orientation, it represents a “system” in which the couple has no voice, so the majority opinion is forced upon them.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I don't agree with that. In a sole proprietorship, one's business life IS one's personal life. Even the IRS figures that; in a sole proprietorship, if the business goes under, so do the personal finances of the owner. That is very personal.

That's why you incorporate your business to give yourself limited liability protections. Even anti-Capitalist Commies know that.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Y'know what?

That you think they are errors neither impresses me, nor indicate that they WERE errors in any place but your imagination.

Why not try to learn from them instead of denying them?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

THEY are the ones imposing their beliefs upon him, by making him do something against his beliefs, in service to theirs.

Dude clearly believes in baking and serving cakes to the public or else he wouldn't have opened up such a business. Are the "hard work" Conservatives wanting to slack off, leaving us Lefties to say "do your damn job" and "get back to work?" He's more snowflaky than a snowflake wanting special treatment and privilege and permission to break the law.

 

[Deidre]

Who knew bakeries were so controversial. lol

 

[sojourner]

I’m still trying to figure out how “baking a cake” could be against anyone’s Christian ethics. And, if “baking cakes” is against his religion and he won’t do it for this client, why is he doing it for other clients?

I’ve read the Bible — many times — and I can say with all certainty that there’s no statement in the Bible precluding one from baking cakes. But there are several injunctions directing us to show hospitality for people we don’t like — including going the extra mile and giving your coat as well as your cloak.

 

[sojourner]

I mean, would the guy bake a cake for Jesus? If so, then he needs to bake a cake for the least among us (IOW, the outcast and the marginalized — I.e., the homosexual and the transsexual). Because when he “does it not to the least of them,” he “does it not to [Jesus].” That’s what baking cakes has to do with “religious principle.”

What does he think is going to happen to him if he bakes the cake, for Pete’s sake?? Is he going to go to hell?? Is God going to stop loving him? What catastrophic thing will happen to him for sucking it up and spreading good karma?

 

[dianaiad]

No. He is forcing thrm Into a position of lesser status, because he’s denying service to them that he would render they were someone else.

Except that he WOULD 'render"those services to them they wanted anything but a wedding cake. That makes the problem the event, not the people.

.............for instance, if one of those gay people came in and wanted a cake for his/her wedding to someone of the opposite sex, they'd get a cake.

Be careful about insisting that this is about them being gay. At the risk of the 'slippery slope' thing (and sometimes that slippery slope is real), a protected group can come into a business, demand some service that is refused for a legitimate reason (no appointments available, the waiting time is too long, the requested size isn't in stock...whatever) and sue the owner for discrimination. You know, there aren't any appointments available only because I'm gay/female/handicapped/African american/Hispanic/whatever, so if you don't boot someone else (who has probably waited for weeks/months) out of the line and put me in, I'll SUE!!!

..........and probably win.

Wait. That's not a slippery slope. That actually happens.

 

[dianaiad]

Not looking for a “convert,” just equal treatment.

....and you guys don't get it. A baker (or anybody else) who honestly believes that same sex marriages are wrong and that he honestly can't support it would refuse to bake a cake for one even if the participants are NOT gay.

.......and that can/has happened. Rarely, but it does, and there's even a movie about it.

So if one is gay and marries someone of the opposite sex, they get a cake.

If they are 'straight' and marry someone of their same sex, they don't get the cake.

That's a religious objection to the wedding, and equal treatment.

 

[dianaiad]

By refusing to serve their wedding due to “religious beliefs,” he is saying, in effect, “God doesn’t approve of you.” [/quote\
Yeah. So?

If they don't agree that God doesn't approve of them, what authority does the baker have to make that one stick?

Since Xy is the majority religion, and cis/straight is the majority orientation, it represents a “system” in which the couple has no voice, so the majority opinion is forced upon them.

Is gay marriage legal?
Can they marry and get their cake from someone who is NOT an idiot?

Then the baker's opinion is not being forced upon them.

 

[dianaiad]

That's why you incorporate your business to give yourself limited liability protections. Even anti-Capitalist Commies know that.

....and once the business is a corporation, the rules change, in a great many ways.

One of those ways, IMO, is that incorporating one's business separates that business from the personal enough so that some of the objections here might actually apply...especially if the corporation is one in which there are shareholders with different beliefs than the guy doing the baking.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

a protected group can come into a business, demand some service that is refused for a legitimate reason (no appointments available, the waiting time is too long, the requested size isn't in stock...whatever) and sue the owner for discrimination.

They can try, but if it can be proven in court there were no available appointment slots, or not enough supplies, the lawsuit will fail and probably be dismissed before it gets to court.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

....and once the business is a corporation, the rules change, in a great many ways.

One of those ways, IMO, is that incorporating one's business separates that business from the personal enough so that some of the objections here might actually apply...especially if the corporation is one in which there are shareholders with different beliefs than the guy doing the baking.

Lots of people, groups, and not even necessarily business entities have incorporated themselves to have the limited liability protection. Having an LLC is about protecting your own personal finances, not necessarily so much how you run your business.

 

[sojourner]

Except that he WOULD 'render"those services to them they wanted anything but a wedding cake. That makes the problem the event, not the people.

.............for instance, if one of those gay people came in and wanted a cake for his/her wedding to someone of the opposite sex, they'd get a cake

So, it is about the people, because one of the PEOPLE would have to be of the opposite sex.

 

[sojourner]

Be careful about insisting that this is about them being gay. At the risk of the 'slippery slope' thing (and sometimes that slippery slope is real), a protected group can come into a business, demand some service that is refused for a legitimate reason (no appointments available, the waiting time is too long, the requested size isn't in stock...whatever) and sue the owner for discrimination. You know, there aren't any appointments available only because I'm gay/female/handicapped/African american/Hispanic/whatever, so if you don't boot someone else (who has probably waited for weeks/months) out of the line and put me in, I'll SUE!!!

..........and probably win.

Wait. That's not a slippery slope. That actually happens

This sounds a whole like making excuses for poor behavior on the part of the baker.