Anti semitisam

[columbus]

I feel that you make certain mistakes in this post. I will try to delineate them.
1. "There is hardly any, assuming that you meant anti semitism."
I am a Jew. I have lived the life.

Right here! You are creating the problem.
You are conflating antisemitism with antiJudaism.
Then you go on to conflate that with opposition to Zionism.

I agree that non Jews often conflate the three things.
But when Jews insist that anti Zionism is not distinguishable from antisemitism it doesn't help with the understanding.
It is just plain wrong.
Tom

 

[outhouse]

I feel that you make certain mistakes in this post. I will try to delineate them.
1. "There is hardly any, assuming that you meant anti semitism."
I am a Jew. I have lived the life. I still see plenty, from swastikas painted on my parents' synagogue to firebombs thrown into a local rabbi's house, to cemetery desecration, to having unpleasant things yelled at me on the street (and pennies thrown at my head). I live in the NYC area -- I'm talking about overt acts even where there plenty of Jews. Things get even more dicey when you move away from a metropolitan area. You may not see it, but don;t dismiss it. It is real, and plentiful, unfortunately.
2. "It has been going away since WWII"
That's sadly not the case. While certain institutional types have reduced, in some places, there is an actual uptick in incidents and anti-Jewish feeling. Jews are fleeing Europe and feeling the heat in the US. We aren't making this stuff up. People really do shoot up JCC's in Kansas City and schools in Toulouse.
3. "Plenty of people are obnoxed by Zionism without having any problem with Judaism"
Actually, plenty of people claim to have a problem with Zionism and not Judaism and then openly cross that line because they conflate the two. Matisyahu wasn't kicked off the music tour because he is Israeli. Propaganda cartoons don't depict Israelis, they show Jews. Anti-Zionism is, for the most part, thinly veiled anti-Semitism because the Zionist movement is about autonomy and a homeland for Jews. To say that one is against Jewish autonomy and the right to self determination, and yet not against the religion that aspires to such things is ludicrous. But, still there will be plenty who try to distinguish anti-Israeli governmental policies with anti-Zionism and that's fine. Heck, most Jews are against some (many) aspects of Israeli politics. But to be against Zionism is to be against the right of a people to exist in a country because their aspiration is rooted in religion. So a problem with Zionism is, in effect (and in most cases) a problem with the religious belief of Judaism.
4. "Opposition to west bank settlements is considered antisemitism, or anti Jewish, when it isn't."
Mostly, it isn't. I have yet to see any Jew in my neck of the woods claim it is. Opposition to Jews living in various parts of Israel has nothing to do with anti-Semitism, except that it, as stated, denies that Jews have the right to live some place in particular just because they are Jews. And, hey, that's not anti-Semitic now, is it?

Funny no Jews here get any of that at all. Not in any shape or form, but we also have no orthodox jews like NYC. Here you cannot see a Jew but there are many.

I would suspect everything you stated has little to do with religion, but has everything to do with the cultural practices.

I would assume your orthodox since your are visibly different then the general population, is that safe to say?

Since orthodox is a minority here, I would say if you are orthodox, your experience is nothing like a typical Jew who experiences little discrimination.

 

[Curious George]

When he was young he was amazing. Piece of **** car, lunchlady land, happy Gilmore, Billy Madison, big daddy, his comedy album back in the day.

you forgot mixed nuts.

 

[rosends]

Right here! You are creating the problem.
You are conflating antisemitism with antiJudaism.
Then you go on to conflate that with opposition to Zionism.

I agree that non Jews often conflate the three things.
But when Jews insist that anti Zionism is not distinguishable from antisemitism it doesn't help with the understanding.
It is just plain wrong.
Tom

anti-semitism IS anti-Judaism. The word traces back to the mid to late 1800's and was coined specifically to mean anti-Judaism, employing the word root "semite" to refer to Jews.

Anti-Judaism is easily distinguishable from anti-Zionism. But separating anti-Zionism from anti-semitism is not so easy. Claiming a clear and simple distinction, and denying the inherent relationship and overlap is just plain wrong.

 

[rosends]

Funny no Jews here get any of that at all. Not in any shape or form, but we also have no orthodox jews like NYC. Here you cannot see a Jew but there are many.

I would suspect everything you stated has little to do with religion, but has everything to do with the cultural practices.

I would assume your orthodox since your are visibly different then the general population, is that safe to say?

Since orthodox is a minority here, I would say if you are orthodox, your experience is nothing like a typical Jew who experiences little discrimination.

I think that if you ask a Jew who isn't orthodox, he will say that he sees plenty of anti-semitism, but that most of it is quiet and subtle -- a store refusing to sell Channukah decorations or a high school having Christian prayers before a football game. Maybe it is the phrase "Jew him down" thrown into casual conversation, or the innocent question about where the horns are. These are things I have heard about from non-religious friends from around the US, ones who aren't externally showing their religion. I even heard of a small kid walking up to a friend who had a Jewish star necklace and asking "why did you kill God?" Jews try to avoid anti-semitism by blending in -- trying not to look too Jewish and letting the little bits of discrimination (mandatory school events on Saturday, not Sunday) go by. Bigotry is insidious because it gets a pass when it just looks like "the way we do things."

And, to answer your question, if you saw me on the street and I was wearing a baseball hat with my Social Distortion t-shirt and ripped jeans, you probably wouldn't know I was Jewish.

 

[psychoslice]

There's anti everything, there are those who are against whatever you can name, we have to take the good with the bad, and also I feel that its ones rights to be against whatever, as long as they keep it to themselves.

 

[columbus]

anti-semitism IS anti-Judaism. The word traces back to the mid to late 1800's and was coined specifically to mean anti-Judaism,

No the words are not the same.
I understand that antisemitism is a word invented to make antijewish sound less bigoted. But this is the 21st century. The words have more precise meanings.

What you are doing here is conflating three different things. People who don't have any problem with cultural or theological Judaism can have a big problem with Zionism. When you smush all the words together you are preventing understanding. So people who oppose the policies of Israel get smeared with the bigotry of antijewishnes by using the term antisemitic to describe them.
Tom

 

[outhouse]

I think that if you ask a Jew who isn't orthodox, he will say that he sees plenty of anti-semitism, but that most of it is quiet and subtle -- a store refusing to sell Channukah decorations or a high school having Christian prayers before a football game. Maybe it is the phrase "Jew him down" thrown into casual conversation, or the innocent question about where the horns are. These are things I have heard about from non-religious friends from around the US, ones who aren't externally showing their religion. I even heard of a small kid walking up to a friend who had a Jewish star necklace and asking "why did you kill God?" Jews try to avoid anti-semitism by blending in -- trying not to look too Jewish and letting the little bits of discrimination (mandatory school events on Saturday, not Sunday) go by. Bigotry is insidious because it gets a pass when it just looks like "the way we do things."

And, to answer your question, if you saw me on the street and I was wearing a baseball hat with my Social Distortion t-shirt and ripped jeans, you probably wouldn't know I was Jewish.

We don't get much of that here, but I'm sure its a regional thing being I'm on the west coast.

Jews being the vast minority will always find stereotypes to some degree. Its not all hatred though or anti-Semitism unless you want to look at every wise crack and knuckle head and a philosophy of glass half empty.

As a Caucasian, living in an all white community, I see no racism towards me. In an all minority location there is plenty.


No one gets free ride, anywhere from poor humanity, and not all are innocent either. Bad people come in all religions and lack of and all color

 

[rosends]

No the words are not the same.
I understand that antisemitism is a word invented to make antijewish sound less bigoted. But this is the 21st century. The words have more precise meanings.

What you are doing here is conflating three different things. People who don't have any problem with cultural or theological Judaism can have a big problem with Zionism. When you smush all the words together you are preventing understanding. So people who oppose the policies of Israel get smeared with the bigotry of antijewishnes by using the term antisemitic to describe them.
Tom

The word means precisely what the word means, still. Claiming it now suddenly means something else opens all sorts of doors for linguistic gymnastics. Maybe black is white. What you are doing is trying to separate things by claiming that they mean something different from what they mean. Maybe the best method now would be to ask you what you think "anti-Semitism" means as distinct from "anti-Judaism" and show me the etymological and sociological track taken to substantiate that. When you arbitrarily define words in order to avoid what they actually mean, you do disservice to language and reason.

 

[rosends]

We don't get much of that here, but I'm sure its a regional thing being I'm on the west coast.

Maybe the issue is that you are a different "we" and that the "they" who are Jews see what you don't because they are at the receiving end of it.

 

[Curious George]

Maybe the issue is that you are a different "we" and that the "they" who are Jews see what you don't because they are at the receiving end of it.

Well I wasn't planning on posting much more in this thread, but why not...

I am on the west coast. There is plenty of anti semitism. However, like all discrimination there is also accusations of such when none is present.

This comment somehow bothers me. It is true that a Jew is always a Jew and therefore likely to see more opportunities for antisemitism, but dismissing another's perspective seems out of hand. Outhouse has not seen or heard about much in his neck of the woods. That is what he has observed. That is all.

 

[rosends]

Well I wasn't planning on posting much more in this thread, but why not...

I am on the west coast. There is plenty of anti semitism. However, like all discrimination there is also accusations of such when none is present.

This comment somehow bothers me. It is true that a Jew is always a Jew and therefore likely to see more opportunities for antisemitism, but dismissing another's perspective seems out of hand. Outhouse has not seen or heard about much in his neck of the woods. That is what he has observed. That is all.

there is a difference between someone saying that he, as you put it, "has not seen or heard" and someone saying, as was said, "We don't get much of that here".

 

[Curious George]

there is a difference between someone saying that he, as you put it, "has not seen or heard" and someone saying, as was said, "We don't get much of that here".

fair enough.

 

[outhouse]

Maybe the issue is that you are a different "we" and that the "they" who are Jews see what you don't because they are at the receiving end of it.

Sorry I work with Jewish people every day who are good friends and we discuss these issues.


Orthodox Jews do not represent Judaism as a whole, they are a minor part of it.

In all honesty, I think orthodox Jews bring trouble on themselves due to the higher levels of fanaticism and fundamentalism required over typical Judaism. That and the cultural differences from most americans.

Im not saying its right or should be tolerated either.

 

[outhouse]

I am on the west coast. There is plenty of anti semitism

Its not absent completely. But in the Sacramento area you will get spray paint swastikas on temples and mosques. These are usually scumbag teenagers.

But I never have heard anyone hating jews in public or private in everyone ive ever met.

 

[rosends]

Sorry I work with Jewish people every day who are good friends and we discuss these issues.


Orthodox Jews do not represent Judaism as a whole, they are a minor part of it.

In all honesty, I think orthodox Jews bring trouble on themselves due to the higher levels of fanaticism and fundamentalism required over typical Judaism. That and the cultural differences from most americans.

Im not saying its right or should be tolerated either.

Are you really reducing this to
a) some of my best friends are Jews so I know better
and
b) when Anti-Semitism happens it is the victim's fault?

and your distinction between "orthodox Jews" and "typical Judaism" is laughable. Do you think that the people who spray painted congregation Agudas Achim in San Antonio or Shaare Torah Congregation in Maryland cared that they were Conservative synagogues? Were the 300 graves in Sarre-Union Orthodox graves or typical ones? Was the 13 year old French boy attacked in July being a fanatic simply because he wore a kippah on his head? Is that not "typical" so he brought the trouble on himself? Should someone have told those who defaced the Ner Tamid Reform Synagogue in the Ukraine that they should spray swastikas elsewhere, because the reform are the typical Jews so they don't bring trouble on themselves?

 

[outhouse]

Do you think that the people who spray painted congregation Agudas Achim in San Antonio or Shaare Torah Congregation in Maryland cared that they were Conservative synagogues?

I never stated such

Your sticking up for a small minority faith not followed by most Jews.

b) when Anti-Semitism happens it is the victim's fault?

I did not say that. Do you feed on negative attention? Could we use this as an example of why the orthodox see more stereotypes ?

 

[outhouse]

and your distinction between "orthodox Jews" and "typical Judaism" is laughable

Do you know what a statistic is?


My point is, its about being different and not wanting to fit into a culture.

If people were painted all blue, they would attract negative attention

 

[David M]

Ignorance.

And historic inertia, it could be argued that there is less around today than in at times pre-20th century. Mass exile from countries and comprehensive seizure of assets all took place in Europe in the past,

 

[David M]

I think that if you ask a Jew who isn't orthodox, he will say that he sees plenty of anti-semitism, but that most of it is quiet and subtle -- a store refusing to sell Channukah decorations or a high school having Christian prayers before a football game.

The latter is not anti-semitism, its directed equally at all religions as well as the non-religious.