Any Pro-Gun Liberals?

[Apex]

yep thats the general idea , it would be illegal ,

now i suspect that criminals are in the minority and armed criminals a minority of that , with criminals armed with a fire arm a minority of that minority,

so in say the UK with a population of 60 million if only criminals armed with a fire arm were to stand up and be counted it would be a very small number ( before the clamour of prove it comes, that just my opinion)

but if firearms were available to all, then we could see millions of firearms on this island-----no thanks

You didn't even address what I said, you just changed the subject to the UK. The UK has nothing to do with this subject.

 

[Father Heathen]

Okay, let's say the rapist has a gun too and he threatens to take the woman's life if you interfere. That's not exactly an unlikely turn of events considering that you're suggesting that you'll have a gun on you at the time, so why shouldn't he?

If no one had a gun, then no one would have to die or be wounded at all. If you got a bunch of people together and forcably removed him, restrained him and called the police, maybe then no one would need to even be harmed at all.

Or would you rather just shoot him to make it a bit easier?

Inflicting pain, suffering or even death on another person irregardless of what wrong they have been percieved to have committed, is just immoral and nonsensical to the extreme because there is always an alternative. In going and shooting the rapist, or any person committing wrong, you descend to the moral level of the villain in that circumstance.

Call that "soppy prattle" or "irrational" if you wish.

Personally, I think the world could do with a whole lot less rationality at times and a whole lot more "soppy prattle".

So you're saying it is better to allow a woman to be raped than to use potentially deadly force to prevent it? How very misogynist of you. Do you honestly believe you can get a bunch of people together to restrain him or for the cops to arrive in the time it takes for the rapist to penetrate his victim? And really, why should anyone give a damn about the life and well being of the rapist? **** 'em. I would be far, far more concerned and compassionate for the victim. Rape is some serious ****. Do you have any idea at all what it does to a person? Not just physical but severe mental and emotional trauma, something they'll have to live with for the rest of their life.

 

[Father Heathen]

I'm sorry, but that's utterly barbaric.

No, rape and the indifference and inaction towards it is what's barbaric.
Seriously, if someone doesn't want to get hurt or possibly killed by others trying to defend themselves, they shouldn't be trying to prey upon people in the first place. Simple.
What would you do if you walked in on your own mother being brutally raped? Give the man a 'high five' and a hug after he pulls out?

 

[Father Heathen]

No, its called survival.

:yes::clap:clap:clap

 

[Father Heathen]

That's survival. Also, banning guns doesn't get rid of guns. Say we enact a full gun ban. Now the big guy still has his gun but the woman doesn't. We just took away her one line of defense. The police can't do crap. Even if they were quick and efficient they're still just too dang slow. People need to defend themselves and not rely on the police.

Right. It reminds me of an old but true cliche; "If you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns."

 

[Father Heathen]

everytime i read a fire arms thread i think most people are prone to extreme violence and killing is about extreme as you can get, the mesmerising influence of weapons never fails to amaze me , a lot of people keep them just to look at them, feel them, clean them and imagine firing them. ( you know who you are ) and would not give up their precious for anything.

Does the tricksy brit hobbitses wants us to toss our guns into the fires of Mt. Doom does they precious?

 

[Father Heathen]

I think even a 90 pound guy with a gun could rape a 350 pound woman.

Ladies, before you take all this to heart and rush out buying firearms to defend yourselves from the rapists lurking around every street corner, heed these wise words of advice, passed on from the Happy Hooker to her step-daughter, who I met on a train in Barcelona:

If you are ever in a situation you fear might turn into a rape, be sexually aggressive. Act like you're totally up for it. The odds are VERY good the rapist will not want to, or be able to, follow through. Rape is about power, not sex.

Now that sounded crazy to me, but she said she'd tried it, and it worked, and the Happy Hooker would know, if anyone would.

Right.. I think most women in such a situation would be too terrified to try to put on a convincing act. And even if they did, what would plan "B" be if the rapist decided to follow through anyway?

 

[kai]

You didn't even address what I said, you just changed the subject to the UK. The UK has nothing to do with this subject.

well eexxccuuuusssee meeeeee

 

[kai]

Does the tricksy brit hobbitses wants us to toss our guns into the fires of Mt. Doom does they precious?

yes good idea, but you have to learn yourselves like any adolescent

 

[Father Heathen]

yes good idea, but you have to learn yourselves like any adolescent

I'm sure there might be some sagely wisdom hidden beneath the mewling echoing from The Shire.

 

[kai]

I'm sure there might be some sagely wisdom hidden beneath the mewling echoing from The Shire.

indeed the old adage if you play with fire , you may get burnt springs to mind, but i will leave now and let you debate here as my eggs and bacon are getting cold

 

[DarkSun]

Oh you mean like how it is really difficult to get your hands on illegal drugs? Oh wait, it isn't difficult, in fact it is unbelievably easy. One look at the drug market and the millions of pounds of drugs that are smuggled over our borders every year should show banning guns will not work. If guns become illegal, they will replace the drugs being smuggled across our borders and the black market will boom with illegal firearms. Then it will be only the criminals who possess them.

Exactly - and perhaps the police: those who are actually proven not to be psychotic.

yep thats the general idea , it would be illegal ,

now i suspect that criminals are in the minority and armed criminals a minority of that , with criminals armed with a fire arm a minority of that minority,

so in say the UK with a population of 60 million if only criminals armed with a fire arm were to stand up and be counted it would be a very small number ( before the clamour of prove it comes, that just my opinion)

but if firearms were available to all, then we could see millions of firearms on this island-----no thanks

^_^ Thank you, Kai.

I don't think you realise, Apex, that not every "criminal" would go to the black market and possess a gun. It could be any ordinary person who snaps under life's pressure and pulls a massacre from under his sleeve. If that "ordinary person" never had a gun, then minimal or even no death would have had to occur.

Besides, guns are illegal in every other country in the world. Guess what, we have a one thousand times lower gun mortality rate to America. I think that says something.

Your constitution desperately needs to change. >_>

 

[DarkSun]

No, rape and the indifference and inaction towards it is what's barbaric.
Seriously, if someone doesn't want to get hurt or possibly killed by others trying to defend themselves, they shouldn't be trying to prey upon people in the first place. Simple.
What would you do if you walked in on your own mother being brutally raped? Give the man a 'high five' and a hug after he pulls out?

I'm anything but indifferent to rape. <_<

In an ideal world, no one would be being raped to begin with. But that's the thing - I know what's right and wrong, and if some disgusting man chooses to defy my sense of morality, I have no right to go and kill him. Put simply, I deem murder as wrong, irregardless of who it is.

If push comes to shove I could grab a baseball bat or something. Yet I've never really been faced with that situation. >_>

By the way, just an off question... how many people did you save from being raped on your way back home from work yesterday?

 

[DarkSun]

Right. It reminds me of an old but true cliche; "If you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns."

I don't think you understand the harm that an every day person can do with a gun when faced with paranoia. <_<

Oh far out, I give up. Enjoy your gun mortality rate. I gots stuff to do now.

 

[Apex]

DarkSun, you do realize that you do not live in an idealistic world, right?

 

[Apex]

Exactly - and perhaps the police: those who are actually proven not to be psychotic.

Except the ones who become murderers. (Yes it has and does happen)

^_^ Thank you, Kai.

I don't think you realise, Apex, that not every "criminal" would go to the black market and possess a gun. It could be any ordinary person who snaps under life's pressure and pulls a massacre from under his sleeve. If that "ordinary person" never had a gun, then minimal or even no death would have had to occur.

You just contradicted your own argument. Do you really think that the outlet of guns changing to the black market is going to stop some ordinary person from going on a killing spree? Instead of going to a gun store and going through the background check and waiting period he can just go get a gun off the black market the same day and be on with his killing spree.

Besides, guns are illegal in every other country in the world.

Prove it. Provide the laws for every other country in the world that ban guns.

Guess what, we have a one thousand times lower gun mortality rate to America. I think that says something.

Dude, you live in Australia. You probably have lower crime rates in every category. You also live on an island, allowing you to control what passes over your borders much more efficiently then we can.

Your constitution desperately needs to change. >_>

Frankly, you are not an American Citizen, so mind your own business. I fail to see how me owning a gun will impact you on the other side of the planet.

 

[kai]

Except the ones who become murderers. (Yes it has and does happen)



You just contradicted your own argument. Do you really think that the outlet of guns changing to the black market is going to stop some ordinary person from going on a killing spree? Instead of going to a gun store and going through the background check and waiting period he can just go get a gun off the black market the same day and be on with his killing spree. of course sir right next to the oranges past the haberdashery the desert eagles are to the right

Prove it. Provide the laws for every other country in the world that ban guns.

Dude, you live in Australia. You probably have lower crime rates in every category. You also live on an island, allowing you to control what passes over your borders much more efficiently then we can.

Frankly, you are not an American Citizen, so mind your own business. I fail to see how me owning a gun will impact you on the other side of the planet.

Oh i dont know a butterfly flaps its wings in south america and-----------


and where does it say Americans only on this thread?

 

[Father Heathen]

The whole objection is based on emotional rather than rational grounds. I don't believe in sacrificing liberty in exchange for some silly sense of fuzzywuzziness.

 

[Alceste]

Right.. I think most women in such a situation would be too terrified to try to put on a convincing act. And even if they did, what would plan "B" be if the rapist decided to follow through anyway?

Not all rapes are "terrifying". That's a misrepresentation, since the vast majority are not cases of strangers leaping out of dark alleyways and putting a knife to your neck. The most common perpetrators of rape are husbands and boyfriends, according to statistics in England, where 97% of the callers to Rape Crises Lines knew their attackers beforehand. (linky) So you're basically advocating wives (or passing vigilantes) shoot their husbands, daughters shoot their fathers, students shooting their classmates, etc. for what many people might argue (albeit incorrectly) might actually be a simple case of miscommunication or the need for psychiatric counselling.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not being an apologist here, I only think it's of great benefit for both men and women to have an accurate picture of what "rape" actually is in the vast majority of cases. Insisting that death should be an appropriate punishment for rape overvalues female chastity in a way I find disturbing and archaic.

Yes there are serial rapists around who target strangers, but it's a drop in the pond in comparison to the whole. Probably similar to the ratio of people murdered by serial killers to killings overall, including crimes of passion and manslaughter (as opposed to first degree murder), although that's just a guess.

There just aren't enough violent, predatory sociopaths in the world to justify carrying a gun just in case you happen to have the misfortune to cross paths with one, considering it is infinitely MORE likely you will use it inappropriately yourself in dark times, or your children will play with it, or someone will steal it to sell on the black market.

 

[Sunstone]

Frankly, you are not an American Citizen, so mind your own business. I fail to see how me owning a gun will impact you on the other side of the planet.

I don't think this thread is limited to American citizens.