Any Pro-Gun Liberals?

[Alceste]

The whole objection is based on emotional rather than rational grounds. I don't believe in sacrificing liberty in exchange for some silly sense of fuzzywuzziness.

Me neither, by the way, people should have guns for hunting if they want them. I will probably get a hunting rifle myself at some point when I go back to Canada. I still think people should not be permitted to own or carry easily concealed weapons that are specifically designed for killing humans, as it increases crime, suicide, accidents, etc.

To illustrate the point, a student who flipped out and started shooting his classmates in Taber, Alberta killed one student with his .22 caliber rifle (borrowed from his dad). This was two weeks after Columbine, where fourteen students were killed with: 2 X 9 mm firearms and 2 X 12 guage sawed off shotguns (all of which were acquired by themselves.)

To me, it's more a matter of the intended function of the weapon and responsible legislation of sales than the right to own guns.

I expect this is the common view in Canada, where a lot of people hunt but not many people go on massive killing sprees.

 

[Father Heathen]

Not all rapes are "terrifying". That's a misrepresentation, since the vast majority are not cases of strangers leaping out of dark alleyways and putting a knife to your neck. The most common perpetrators of rape are husbands and boyfriends, according to statistics in England, where 97% of the callers to Rape Crises Lines knew their attackers beforehand. (linky) So you're basically advocating wives (or passing vigilantes) shoot their husbands, daughters shoot their fathers, students shooting their classmates, etc. for what many people might argue (albeit incorrectly) might actually be a simple case of miscommunication or the need for psychiatric counselling.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not being an apologist here, I only think it's of great benefit for both men and women to have an accurate picture of what "rape" actually is in the vast majority of cases. Insisting that death should be an appropriate punishment for rape overvalues female chastity in a way I find disturbing and archaic.

Yes there are serial rapists around who target strangers, but it's a drop in the pond in comparison to the whole. Probably similar to the ratio of people murdered by serial killers to killings overall, including crimes of passion and manslaughter (as opposed to first degree murder), although that's just a guess.

There just aren't enough violent, predatory sociopaths in the world to justify carrying a gun just in case you happen to have the misfortune to cross paths with one, considering it is infinitely MORE likely you will use it inappropriately yourself in dark times, or your children will play with it, or someone will steal it to sell on the black market.

I doubt knowing who your attacker is makes a brutal violation any less of a horrifying, traumatic and painful experience.

 

[painted wolf]

true... but you arn't likely to be in a situation to pull a gun on your husband/boyfriend.

I personally think there is too much of this sort of charged hyperboly in discussions of gun rights.

wa:do

 

[Apex]

I doubt knowing who your attacker is makes a brutal violation any less of a horrifying, traumatic and painful experience.

We had a presentation from the girls mother about rape. Her daughter was raped by someone she knew while she was over at his apartment. She killed her self about a year latter.

 

[DarkSun]

Except the ones who become murderers. (Yes it has and does happen)

Quite infrequently per thousand police, one would think, when compared with every day society.

You just contradicted your own argument.

Where? Sorry... I mustn't be able to see it, that's my bad.

Do you really think that the outlet of guns changing to the black market is going to stop some ordinary person from going on a killing spree? Instead of going to a gun store and going through the background check and waiting period he can just go get a gun off the black market the same day and be on with his killing spree.

I seriously doubt that someone who's about to go on some psychotic rampage will rationalise and think "Oh, hmmm... maybe I should go to the black market to get a gun." Although I could be wrong - it seems unlikely. Especially when the every day person has minimal to no involvement with the mafia at all, so presumedly, he wouldn't know where to even get a gun.

Now if that someone had a gun to begin with that would make his job a whole lot easier. Just grab the gun and run. <_<

Prove it. Provide the laws for every other country in the world that ban guns.

I can't be stuffed looking up laws in every country in the world, I'm sorry. In Australia it is illegal. In England, it is illegal. In various parts of Europe, it is illegal. But since I'm not a solicitor and don't have any education in law on a national level, let alone and international level, I'm just going to have to give you my word.

Besides - what I said was pretty much common knowledge and needs no proof. You realise that the US is one of the only countries who legalises guns, don't you?

Dude, you live in Australia. You probably have lower crime rates in every category. You also live on an island, allowing you to control what passes over your borders much more efficiently then we can.

Country Yearly Firearm Homicides
(i.e. not including accidents)

USA 11,127
Germany 381
France 255
Canada 165
United Kingdom 68
Japan 39

Source: [Internet] Available from: "Bowling For Columbine"

It's not just Australia, mate. You've got a gun mortality rate that's about one hundred times higher than most other countries in the world. Round of applause?

Frankly, you are not an American Citizen, so mind your own business. I fail to see how me owning a gun will impact you on the other side of the planet.

Basic issues of morality require no set nationality to act upon.

The way I see it, we are all people. I care for the wellfare of other countries, because each and every human being, regardless of culture, is capable of pain and suffering. We are all the same in that respect.

Besides, new technology such as the internet has resulted in what we call Globalisation. No single country is on it's own any more. Despite your affinity to deny it, an Australian's opinion on this matter is just as valid as any other's.

 

[DarkSun]

DarkSun, you do realize that you do not live in an idealistic world, right?

I do, actually... I live with that every day.

But that's not an excuse to become a part of what I know is wrong.

 

[Alceste]

I doubt knowing who your attacker is makes a brutal violation any less of a horrifying, traumatic and painful experience.

What I'm saying is that many wives and girlfriends, even battered ones, would not appreciate a passing vigilante blowing their husbands' head off during an abusive encounter, despite the horror, trauma and pain. I'm almost certain most women would prefer an intensive course of counselling for the offending partner. Likewise, I've been in borderline situations myself where I'm pretty sure I did not consent - like waking up after a party to someone attempting to have sex with me (very common occurrence) - and although it was disturbing and traumatic it would have been all the more so if someone had burst in and slaughtered the offender in a hail of bullets.

 

[Father Heathen]

I've been in borderline situations myself where I'm pretty sure I did not consent - like waking up after a party to someone attempting to have sex with me (very common occurrence)

I hope you don't mind me asking this, but why would you put yourself in such a situation if it happens to be a common occurrence? A thrilling game of rape roulette?

 

[Alceste]

I hope you don't mind me asking this, but why would you put yourself in such a situation if it happens to be a common occurrence? A thrilling game of rape roulette?

No, an ordinary game of going to house parties, sleeping in an available bed (rather than driving home drunk), and drunk guys taking liberties. A common occurrence, I'm sure, if you ask any woman. They were "borderline" only because I'm a light sleeper. Otherwise they would have been rape.

 

[painted wolf]

sexual assault isn't about a woman putting herself at risk... unless you call knowing any males a risk.
I've had 'borderline' experiences myself.. no 'risky' behavior needed. Just opportunistic jerks.

Having said that... I don't think having access to a gun would have stopped any of those incidents. Unless I'm to be expected to keep a gun on my person at all times.

Personally I think a culture where a woman needs a gun on herself 24/7 is fundimentally sick.

wa:do

 

[Father Heathen]

No, an ordinary game of going to house parties, sleeping in an available bed (rather than driving home drunk), and drunk guys taking liberties. A common occurrence, I'm sure, if you ask any woman. They were "borderline" only because I'm a light sleeper. Otherwise they would have been rape.

And if it does happen?

 

[Alceste]

And if it does happen?

Well then I would have been very disgusted, had a long shower, warned all my female friends to stay away from the guy, etc. You know, like women do already. I wouldn't have seen any cause to kill them. I'm not that much of a prude.

 

[painted wolf]

Have the filthy so and so arrested. I'm not going to blow his brains out for my own peace of mind.
I'd rather he rotted in jail. (I'm mean what can I say.)
*Mind you I'd prolly' kick his teeth in first.

wa:do

 

[Father Heathen]

Well then I would have been very disgusted, had a long shower, warned all my female friends to stay away from the guy, etc. You know, like women do already. I wouldn't have seen any cause to kill them. I'm not that much of a prude.

I wasn't talking about guns anymore. I'm talking about people returning to situations were they've repeatedly faced attempted rapes, and then dismissing and downplaying the potential risk like rape was little more than the sexual version of a wedgie. And even if I were still speaking of guns, I think it would be better to not place yourself in a situtation where you would need one in the first place.

 

[kai]

I wasn't talking about guns anymore. I'm talking about people returning to situations were they've repeatedly faced attempted rapes, and then dismissing and downplaying the potential risk like rape was little more than the sexual version of a wedgie. And even if I were still speaking of guns, I think it would be better to not place yourself in a situtation where you would need one in the first place.

and yet we have people that feel the need to carry a gun concealed on their person,under the car seat ,or even at home, so to a lot of people it seems life in general, is a situation where you would need one.

 

[Alceste]

Have the filthy so and so arrested. I'm not going to blow his brains out for my own peace of mind.
I'd rather he rotted in jail. (I'm mean what can I say.)
*Mind you I'd prolly' kick his teeth in first.

wa:do

Yes, me too. :yes:

 

[Alceste]

I wasn't talking about guns anymore. I'm talking about people returning to situations were they've repeatedly faced attempted rapes, and then dismissing and downplaying the potential risk like rape was little more than the sexual version of a wedgie. And even if I were still speaking of guns, I think it would be better to not place yourself in a situtation where you would need one in the first place.

I downplay it because the only "attempted rapes" I've faced were just awkward, unwelcome, drunken come-ons. They would have only been rape if I hadn't woken up. You see what I'm saying? And we're talking about life in general, here. Not one specific social group that happens to have more than its fair share of men who aren't aware it's inappropriate to attempt to have sex with a sleeping drunk woman. This is life. Particularly when I was younger. Are you saying I should not go to parties, just in case somebody tried to have sex with me without my permission? Or what? 1 in 4 women have been raped according to UK statistics. That indicates to me that avoiding situations where you might face attempted rape is probably a lost cause. Better to just live life prepared to kick someone's teeth in if they cross my boundaries and don't listen when I tell them to stop. Shooting rapists would be overkill, and considering the statistics on rape (1 in 4!), it likely also decimate the male population.

 

[Apex]

and yet we have people that feel the need to carry a gun concealed on their person,under the car seat ,or even at home, so to a lot of people it seems life in general, is a situation where you would need one.

Ever heard of the Boy Scouts motto? "Always be prepared"

 

[Reverend Rick]

and yet we have people that feel the need to carry a gun concealed on their person,under the car seat ,or even at home, so to a lot of people it seems life in general, is a situation where you would need one.

If we had a crystal ball, we could just relax and be happy. The one time in your life where a gun might solve a problem or perhaps save many lives, is not going to be in some dark alley or seedy neighborhood.

I believe the bottom line is, having a gun and being able to use it is having the power of life and death in your own hands. You are judge, jury, and executioner.

This is serious power. It must be respected. Many people believe they should not respect other people. They want to be attempted rapists, thieves and such. They want to rape and pillage with impunity.

How dare the legal gun owner demand respect by not being molested.

The criminals rights exceed the victims rights.

The right to self defense is under attack. We should endure a rape rather than set an example of what happens when you step over the line. What society really wants is no consequences for their actions.

 

[kai]

Ever heard of the Boy Scouts motto? "Always be prepared"

yes to make a fire with two sticks or how to tie a knot , not be prepared to shoot someones head off. thats more billy the kid than baden powell