Apostates of Islam

[ProudMuslim]

I thought i was being honest
Sura 47.4 "When you encounter the unbelievers, Strike off their heads. Untill you have made a wide slaughter among them tie up the remaining captives."
we are told its taken out of context ok fair enough

and yes i understand it,it is not i who is confused,it is the 600 million Muslims who think that the Hadiths of Apostacy are relevant today,hence Kareems predicament and many others and he does'nt live in an Islamic state,well officially its not.

"So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners, and afterwards either set them free as a favor or let them ransom (themselves) until the war terminates."

This is the verse, and as you can see yes we are allowed to kill combatants during war, i guess it is a shocking news right?

And can you please specify where did you get the 600 million muslims figure from?

I think it is fair enough to say that you've got many replies here regarding this issue. There is NO worldly punishment for apostates, refer to "Peace" post. I think you might be confusing the status of a traitor with an apostate. A traitor, let him be a Muslim or an unbeliever, is the one who faces death penalty and rightfully so if convicted. This is an honest answer.

As far as Kareem goes, how is he any different from those who are imprisoned in Europe for Holocaust "Denial/Revisionsim"?

 

[Mr Spinkles]

As far as Kareem goes, how is he any different from those who are imprisoned in Europe for Holocaust "Denial/Revisionsim"?

I wasn't aware anyone got any serious jail time for that...but I agree with you that it is not fundamentally different. It should be legal to express unpopular opinions, like Holocaust denial in Europe and atheism in Egypt. Do you agree?

 

[England my lionheart]

I wasn't aware anyone got any serious jail time for that...but I agree with you that it is not fundamentally different. It should be legal to express unpopular opinions, like Holocaust denial in Europe and atheism in Egypt. Do you agree?

I totaly agree,free speech and thought is an integral part of what i believe in,what is different in Kareems case is 3 of the 4 years he recieved was because he criticised Islam and Al-Azhar University.

 

[gnostic]

There is NO worldly punishment for apostates, refer to "Peace" post. I think you might be confusing the status of a traitor with an apostate. A traitor, let him be a Muslim or an unbeliever, is the one who faces death penalty and rightfully so if convicted. This is an honest answer.

It would seem that Fatihah have a very different from yours.

Response: We must first understand that the issue is apostacy. After an explaination, you can decide for yourself whether the individual should die.

A person who leaves islam and insists on staying in disbelief were never muslims to begin with. They were enemies of islam. If the muslim community allowed this practice, they would be easy target for their enemies which would cause havoc and destroy the unity between muslims and any individual muslim directedly involved. Therefore it is very necessary to put an end to such a practice by putting the apostates to death before they attempt to harm the muslims.

But if the apostates promise to give the muslims peace then they must enter into a peace treaty with the muslims and no harm will come to them unless the treaty is broken.

He is treating apostates as the same thing as traitors, and that is people leaving Islam.

Different Muslims have different view on the punishment of apostates.

 

[England my lionheart]

"So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners, and afterwards either set them free as a favor or let them ransom (themselves) until the war terminates."

This is the verse, and as you can see yes we are allowed to kill combatants during war, i guess it is a shocking news right?

And can you please specify where did you get the 600 million muslims figure from?

I think it is fair enough to say that you've got many replies here regarding this issue. There is NO worldly punishment for apostates, refer to "Peace" post. I think you might be confusing the status of a traitor with an apostate. A traitor, let him be a Muslim or an unbeliever, is the one who faces death penalty and rightfully so if convicted. This is an honest answer.

As far as Kareem goes, how is he any different from those who are imprisoned in Europe for Holocaust "Denial/Revisionsim"?

Thanks for your honest answer.
I criticise my government everyday,icriticise Politicians to their face,i criticise every religious door knocker that comes to my house but i am not in prison.
The 600 million comes from all the countries who practice Sharia Hudood(spelling)penalties,it is abhorrent to me and if you added Egypt where there are many issues at the moment 600 million is a conservative estimate.
As for the verses,i agree they should not be taken out of context sadly they are but not only by non Muslims but importantly by Muslims.

 

[ProudMuslim]

It would seem that Fatihah have a very different from yours.

When it comes to Qur'an it is not about opinions. "Peace" have posted Qur'anic verses to support Islamic view on the apostates, not her or my opinion. Quran to Muslims is the direct words of God and no one shall contradict it based on his/her personal opinion IF they want to uphold Islamic law.

But if you read 'Fatihah' last sentence, it clearly says that apostates who leave peacefully and dont wage wars against us, no harm should come to them. I dont think he is equating apostates to traitors.

 

[Fatihah]

It would seem that Fatihah have a very different from yours.



He is treating apostates as the same thing as traitors, and that is people leaving Islam.

Different Muslims have different view on the punishment of apostates.

Response: On the contrary, it would seem as if you want the muslims on the forum to dispute. Every muslim here has said from the start that all the verses pertaining to acts of violence are in self defense. My response was no different. I've noticed that throughout the forum. A person comes along and tries to point out a difference in the responses between muslims in an effort to prove something but the unfortunate thing in this incident is that every muslim is clearly saying the same thing. Why you would try to make it seem otherwise is very evident of your intentions.

 

[gnostic]

But in "self defence" of what????

You said it yourself, that a person who leave Islam is already an enemy and deserve death. That much is clear.

It is actually a joke.

Does everyone who leave actually attack their religion?

Can a religion EVEN be attacked or harm in any way?

Or do you seriously think that a person who leave Islam, can make war upon it?

I have never heard such rubbish before.

From what I understand about your religion, you see god and religion (well, at least your Islam) to be one and the same. So, if a religion is a god and god is the religion, then a religion can't be harmed, let alone be attack.

Unless you mean criticism. Is your god is so weak that it can't take criticism by former believer? Or is that people are weak that they can't receive criticism of their religion?

Either way, your religion is barbaric if it must punished those who leave Islam.

 

[ProudMuslim]

But in "self defence" of what????

You said it yourself, that a person who leave Islam is already an enemy and deserve death. That much is clear.

It is actually a joke.

Does everyone who leave actually attack their religion?

Can a religion EVEN be attacked or harm in any way?

Or do you seriously think that a person who leave Islam, can make war upon it?

I have never heard such rubbish before.

From what I understand about your religion, you see god and religion (well, at least your Islam) to be one and the same. So, if a religion is a god and god is the religion, then a religion can't be harmed, let alone be attack.

Unless you mean criticism. Is your god is so weak that it can't take criticism by former believer? Or is that people are weak that they can't receive criticism of their religion?

Either way, your religion is barbaric if it must punished those who leave Islam.

WOW, did you got all that from our replies?

ROTFLAMO

 

[gnostic]

What do the Muslims have to fear from apostates?

What do your god have to fear from apostates?

Why punished those who no longer what to be Muslims?

Your Qur'an tell you to kill any unbelievers, does it not. It say nothing about combatants.

I think it was 2 years ago, an Afghan Muslim left to be converted as a Christian, and he was arrested for such conversion, and he would have received a death sentence. The only way he escaped execution is both pressure by non-Muslim governments, and forcing the man to confess madness.

The threat to apostates are real by Islamic governing powers and law and by fanatical Muslims, regardless if they done they said nothing or done nothing. A simple admission of changing religion or becoming atheist, would earn arrest or worse be lynch by fanatical mobs.

 

[England my lionheart]

Ok lets put it another way,every day you go to the Mosque with a freind for prayers then one day your freind does'nt go and you ask him why? he says i have lost faith in Islam,you try to persuade him otherwise but he is still adamant,not only that he then goes on to criticise it calling it inhuman for the Hudd punishments etc.
Do you shun his company(if he were to do this in an Islamic state he would be dead)or do you continue to be his freind?

 

[ProudMuslim]

The 600 million comes from all the countries who practice Sharia Hudood(spelling)penalties,it is abhorrent to me and if you added Egypt where there are many issues at the moment 600 million is a conservative estimate.

There isn't a single Islamic country that represents or applies fully the Sharia Law.

Anyway the way you come up with this figure is totally invalid. It's like counting the populations of US, UK and Australia and then say over 400 million supported the war! When we know not everyone living in those countries supported the war. Just because one country applies a certain rule does not mean its population agree with it specially in a non-democratic countries.

Ok lets put it another way,every day you go to the Mosque with a freind for prayers then one day your freind does'nt go and you ask him why? he says i have lost faith in Islam,you try to persuade him otherwise but he is still adamant,not only that he then goes on to criticise it calling it inhuman for the Hudd punishments etc.
Do you shun his company(if he were to do this in an Islamic state he would be dead)or do you continue to be his freind?

This is very subjective so dont expect the same answer from everyone.

Personally i will not shun this person, if he is truly my friend then i will not give up on my him and i am a firm believers in "a friend in need, is a friend indeed". I believe athiesm is state of confusion and denial, so of course i will try to stick around and won't mind debating and discussing with him religion.

 

[England my lionheart]

Very good answer,if only Egypt thought the same way

 

[England my lionheart]

And it was proven that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Whoever changes his religion, execute him.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari in his Saheeh. What this hadeeth means is that whoever leaves Islam and changes to another religion and persists in that and does not repent, is to be executed. It was also proven that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “It is not permissible to shed the blood of a person who bears witness that there is no god but Allaah and that I am the Messenger of Allaah except in three cases: a life for a life, a previously-married person who commits adultery, and one who leaves Islam and forsakes the jamaa’ah.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari and Muslim.​

This harsh punishment is for a number of reasons:
1 – This punishment is a deterrent to anyone who wants to enter Islam just to follow the crowd or for hypocritical purposes. This will motivate him to examine the matter thoroughly and not to proceed unless he understands the consequences of that in this world and in the Hereafter. The one who announces his Islam has agreed to adhere to all the rulings of Islam of his own free will and consent, one of which rulings is that he is to be executed if he apostatizes from the faith.

 

[England my lionheart]

Bukhari (84:58) - "There was a fettered man beside Abu Muisa. Mu'adh asked, 'Who is this (man)?' Abu Muisa said, 'He was a Jew and became a Muslim and then reverted back to Judaism.' Then Abu Muisa requested Mu'adh to sit down but Mu'adh said, 'I will not sit down till he has been killed. This is the judgment of Allah and His Apostle (for such cases) and repeated it thrice.' Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed. Abu Musa added, 'Then we discussed the night prayers'"

 

[Gharib]

i just copied my previous answer just to keep an eye out in this thread, and so i can have it in "my replies"
hope you don't mind, and you do not need to asnwer it again in a better way if you can. (picture a smiley here)

Originally Posted by England my lionheart

And it was proven that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Whoever changes his religion, execute him.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari in his Saheeh. What this hadeeth means is that whoever leaves Islam and changes to another religion and persists in that and does not repent, is to be executed. It was also proven that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “It is not permissible to shed the blood of a person who bears witness that there is no god but Allaah and that I am the Messenger of Allaah except in three cases: a life for a life, a previously-married person who commits adultery, and one who leaves Islam and forsakes the jamaa’ah.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari and Muslim. ​

This harsh punishment is for a number of reasons:
1 – This punishment is a deterrent to anyone who wants to enter Islam just to follow the crowd or for hypocritical purposes. This will motivate him to examine the matter thoroughly and not to proceed unless he understands the consequences of that in this world and in the Hereafter. The one who announces his Islam has agreed to adhere to all the rulings of Islam of his own free will and consent, one of which rulings is that he is to be executed if he apostatizes from the faith.

i don't understand most of this post, all of it mainly. but read that highlited part, one will not enter unless they have agred to the laws of Allah. so whats the point of this, you have just opposed your own argument (thats what i think as far as i know). you yourself don't accept the laws, so you are not a muslim. is there something you wish to say about bringing this topic up.

 

[Gharib]

Different Muslims have different view on the punishment of apostates.

yes true, different 'simple' muslims do have different anwers to many things concerning islam, i bet mine would be completely differen't but don't have much knowledge to speak about it. however, if you are looking for an asnwer go ask a scholar.

and you just as any other non muslim are very quick to point out that our views are different, so what?

 

[Gharib]

Bukhari (84:58) - "There was a fettered man beside Abu Muisa. Mu'adh asked, 'Who is this (man)?' Abu Muisa said, 'He was a Jew and became a Muslim and then reverted back to Judaism.' Then Abu Muisa requested Mu'adh to sit down but Mu'adh said, 'I will not sit down till he has been killed. This is the judgment of Allah and His Apostle (for such cases) and repeated it thrice.' Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed. Abu Musa added, 'Then we discussed the night prayers'"

are you trying to prove something with this? at the moment it isn't doing anything. appart from starring at the screen

 

[England my lionheart]

i just copied my previous answer just to keep an eye out in this thread, and so i can have it in "my replies"
hope you don't mind, and you do not need to asnwer it again in a better way if you can. (picture a smiley here)
i don't understand most of this post, all of it mainly. but read that highlited part, one will not enter unless they have agred to the laws of Allah. so whats the point of this, you have just opposed your own argument (thats what i think as far as i know). you yourself don't accept the laws, so you are not a muslim. is there something you wish to say about bringing this topic up.

Read,"there shall be no compulsion in religion" bit of a contradiction isn't it,what i am saying is simple people like Kareem should not be in prison for voicing his opinion and Apostacy should not be punishable with death because of some outdated Hadith.

 

[England my lionheart]

are you trying to prove something with this? at the moment it isn't doing anything. appart from starring at the screen

What i am saying is that people should stop living in the past of 1400 years ago and trying to copy every single thing your prophet did or said.