Apostates of Islam

[Kodanshi]

Interesting. Got a source for this. I heard it had to do with allowing captured Jewish children to remain Jewish.

No, it was Jews nicely taking care of Muslim children who were under threat from pagans. And they were not to force the muslim children to become Jews. Or something along those lines.

Ahhh, here it is, from ibn Kathir’s tafsir of the Qur’ân:

Ibn Jarir recorded that Ibn `Abbas said ﴿that before Islam﴾, "When (an Ansar) woman would not bear children who would live, she would vow that if she gives birth to a child who remains alive, she would raise him as a Jew. When Banu An-Nadir (the Jewish tribe) were evacuated ﴿from Al-Madinah﴾, some of the children of the Ansar were being raised among them, and the Ansar said, `We will not abandon our children.' Allah revealed,
﴿لاَ إِكْرَاهَ فِى الدِّينِ قَد تَّبَيَّنَ الرُّشْدُ مِنَ الْغَيِّ﴾
(There is no compulsion in religion. Verily, the right path has become distinct from the wrong path.)''

He then takes it as a general injunction not to force religion on people, including not turning people muslim, but that’s not what the context of the revelation was.

 

[.lava]

Whenever someone quotes a Qur’ânic verse that sounds bad, muslims accuse people of taking it out of context, and then say that you need to understand the context of the revelation which produced the verse in the first place. And as I have repeatedly pointed out, the no compulsion in religion verse was ‘revealed’ to stop people forcibly converting muslims to paganism and NOT the other way around!

you said the same thing in your earlier post. are you sure i told you you're taking sentences out of context?

it was revealed to Pagans converting Muslims to paganism? it is OK to have your own personal idea but this is almost funny you know. well, believe as you like, you can not damage religion of God. we will exist and keep Islam standing still for those who wants to be saved no matter what.

.

 

[AbuKhalid]

He then takes it as a general injunction not to force religion on people, including not turning people muslim, but that’s not what the context of the revelation was.

But the essence of the verse rather than the context is the important thing. It is a general rule which Allah revealed in relation to an event which was actually happening at the time. He could not have revealed it in relation to Muslims forcing Islam upon people as that was not happening.

 

[Kodanshi]

It is a general rule which Allah revealed in relation to an event which was actually happening at the time.

I looked it up in the tafsir and it was an event consisting of muslim children being brought up as Jews. So it’s about not forcing muslims to abandon their religion, nothing else. Otherwise you may as well take other general injunctions out of context and claim they represent a message for all time.

 

[AbuKhalid]

There's always a reason be it oppression,injustice,"tit for tat" or power politics. one fact remains that Bin Laden could and has justified his attacks against the US "Islamically" even though i believe it is not sanctioned in the Quran or the Sharia, is it not true that Muslims are not to declare war on a country that allows them to practice their religion freely?

No. It is an individual obligation on all Muslims to fight against any nation which occupies any of the Islamic lands. This is one of the clearest points in Sharia and something over which there is no dispute amongst the Ulaama. Muslims didn't declare war on the US - the US has been involved in the middle east since the end of the 2nd world war and without it all the apostate regimes there would fall. This is a whole different issue however but I was just pointing out what the Sharia states. I can provide evidences for this if you like.

 

[AbuKhalid]

I looked it up in the tafsir and it was an event consisting of muslim children being brought up as Jews. So it’s about not forcing muslims to abandon their religion, nothing else. Otherwise you may as well take other general injunctions out of context and claim they represent a message for all time.

By saying it was a general rule I did mean that it was a message for all time. There are other verses which support this:

Allah says: “If it had been your Lord’s will, all of the people on Earth would have believed. Would you then compel the people so to have them believe?”
[Sûrah Yûnus: 99]

Allah says: “So if they dispute with you, say ‘I have submitted my whole self to Allah, and so have those who follow me.’ And say to the People of the Scripture and to the unlearned: ‘Do you also submit yourselves?’ If they do, then they are on right guidance. But if they turn away, your duty is only to convey the Message. And in Allah’s sight are all of His servants.”
[Sûrah Âl `Imrân: 20]

Allah says: “The Messenger’s duty is but to proclaim the Message.”
[Sûrah al-Mâ’idah: 99]

 

[Alla Prima]

Here's another contradiction. Actually this shows clearly that Islam was forced onto people:

Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 53, Number 392:
Narrated Abu Huraira:

While we were in the Mosque, the Prophet came out and said, "Let us go to the Jews" We went out till we reached Bait-ul-Midras. He said to them, "If you embrace Islam, you will be safe. You should know that the earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle, and I want to expel you from this land. So, if anyone amongst you owns some property, he is permitted to sell it, otherwise you should know that the Earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle."

In other words, if you accept Islam, you may keep your land and property, but if not, Muhammad and the Muslims will confiscate it. Compulsion to religion

 

[Gharib]

Here's another contradiction. Actually this shows clearly that Islam was forced onto people:

Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 53, Number 392:
Narrated Abu Huraira:

While we were in the Mosque, the Prophet came out and said, "Let us go to the Jews" We went out till we reached Bait-ul-Midras. He said to them, "If you embrace Islam, you will be safe. You should know that the earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle, and I want to expel you from this land. So, if anyone amongst you owns some property, he is permitted to sell it, otherwise you should know that the Earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle."

In other words, if you accept Islam, you may keep your land and property, but if not, Muhammad and the Muslims will confiscate it. Compulsion to religion

thats what all great mpires do, how old are you Alla Prima?

how else would mecca have belonged to the muslims?
see, even though he did that, he never did it like the other animals, who go and kill the people and take their land.

funny see, islam was not spread by the sword.

 

[Alla Prima]

Sahih Bukhari 4.52.191

"In the name of Allah, the most Beneficent, the most Merciful (This letter is) from Muhammad, the slave of Allah, and His Apostle, to Heraculius, the Ruler of the Byzantine. Peace be upon the followers of guidance. Now then, I invite you to Islam (i.e. surrender to Allah), embrace Islam and you will be safe; embrace Islam and Allah will bestow on you a double reward. But if you reject this invitation of Islam, you shall be responsible for misguiding the peasants (i.e. your nation).


Compulsion to religion

 

[Alla Prima]

[9.23] O you who believe! do not take your fathers and your brothers for guardians if they love unbelief more than belief; and whoever of you takes them for a guardian, these it is that are the unjust.

Compulsion to religion

[9.24] Say: If your fathers and your sons and your brethren and your mates and your kinsfolk and property which you have acquired, and the slackness of trade which you fear and dwellings which you like, are dearer to you than Allah and His Apostle and striving in His way, then wait till Allah brings about His command: and Allah does not guide the transgressing people.

[9.25] Certainly Allah helped you in many battlefields and on the day of Hunain, when your great numbers made you vain, but they availed you nothing and the earth became strait to you notwithstanding its spaciousness, then you turned back retreating.

[9.26] Then Allah sent down His tranquillity upon His Apostle and upon the believers, and sent down hosts which you did not see, and chastised those who disbelieved, and that is the reward of the unbelievers.

Compulsion to religion

[9.27] Then will Allah after this turn (mercifully) to whom He pleases, and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

[9.28]O you who believe! the idolaters are nothing but unclean, so they shall not approach the Sacred Mosque after this year; and if you fear poverty then Allah will enrich you out of His grace if He please; surely Allah is Knowing Wise.

[9.29]Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

Compulsion to religion

 

[AbuKhalid]

Sahih Bukhari 4.52.191

"In the name of Allah, the most Beneficent, the most Merciful (This letter is) from Muhammad, the slave of Allah, and His Apostle, to Heraculius, the Ruler of the Byzantine. Peace be upon the followers of guidance. Now then, I invite you to Islam (i.e. surrender to Allah), embrace Islam and you will be safe; embrace Islam and Allah will bestow on you a double reward. But if you reject this invitation of Islam, you shall be responsible for misguiding the peasants (i.e. your nation).


Compulsion to religion

How is that compulsion. He is telling him that if he doesn't accept Islam then he will be misguided and have misguided those under his rule. To see this as forcing him to accept Islam is clearly wrong. And as history shows Heraculius didn't accept Islam so how was he compelled to do anything?

 

[Alla Prima]

thats what all great mpires do, how old are you Alla Prima?

how else would mecca have belonged to the muslims?
see, even though he did that, he never did it like the other animals, who go and kill the people and take their land.

funny see, islam was not spread by the sword.

What does my age has to do with this discussion?

The verse clearly shows coercion on the part of Muhammad. Coercion is the act of achieving a goal by force or threat. Convert or suffer. Compulsion.

 

[AbuKhalid]

Here's another contradiction. Actually this shows clearly that Islam was forced onto people:

Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 53, Number 392:
Narrated Abu Huraira:

While we were in the Mosque, the Prophet came out and said, "Let us go to the Jews" We went out till we reached Bait-ul-Midras. He said to them, "If you embrace Islam, you will be safe. You should know that the earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle, and I want to expel you from this land. So, if anyone amongst you owns some property, he is permitted to sell it, otherwise you should know that the Earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle."

In other words, if you accept Islam, you may keep your land and property, but if not, Muhammad and the Muslims will confiscate it. Compulsion to religion

Again no. These Jews (only a particular tribe, not all Jews in Madina) had been guilty of treachery against the Muslims and had been waging a campaign against Islam. As a result they where to be expelled however the Prophet said that any who accepted Islam would not be expelled. As the majority of them didn't accept Islam but instead moved to Khyber (where they continued to fight Islam) the how where they compelled to do anything?

 

[Gharib]

What does my age has to do with this discussion?

oh nothing. you can ignore that.

The verse clearly shows coercion on the part of Muhammad. Coercion is the act of achieving a goal by force or threat. Convert or suffer. Compulsion.

no wrong. convert or sell everything and go. leaving does not mean suffer. go look it up. and he never threatend them, so how can you say that.

 

[AbuKhalid]

[9.23] O you who believe! do not take your fathers and your brothers for guardians if they love unbelief more than belief; and whoever of you takes them for a guardian, these it is that are the unjust.

Compulsion to religion

[9.24] Say: If your fathers and your sons and your brethren and your mates and your kinsfolk and property which you have acquired, and the slackness of trade which you fear and dwellings which you like, are dearer to you than Allah and His Apostle and striving in His way, then wait till Allah brings about His command: and Allah does not guide the transgressing people.

[9.25] Certainly Allah helped you in many battlefields and on the day of Hunain, when your great numbers made you vain, but they availed you nothing and the earth became strait to you notwithstanding its spaciousness, then you turned back retreating.

[9.26] Then Allah sent down His tranquillity upon His Apostle and upon the believers, and sent down hosts which you did not see, and chastised those who disbelieved, and that is the reward of the unbelievers.

Compulsion to religion

[9.27] Then will Allah after this turn (mercifully) to whom He pleases, and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

[9.28]O you who believe! the idolaters are nothing but unclean, so they shall not approach the Sacred Mosque after this year; and if you fear poverty then Allah will enrich you out of His grace if He please; surely Allah is Knowing Wise.

[9.29]Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

Compulsion to religion

Taking a lot of verses which in no way make anyone compelled to accept Islam and simply proclaiming "compulsion to religion" does not make it so. Can you explain how any of these verses tell us to force people to become Muslims?

 

[Alla Prima]

How is that compulsion. He is telling him that if he doesn't accept Islam then he will be misguided and have misguided those under his rule. To see this as forcing him to accept Islam is clearly wrong. And as history shows Heraculius didn't accept Islam so how was he compelled to do anything?

Because apparently Heraclius did not accept Islam, and thereafter the Byzantines found the warriors of jihad granted no safety to those who rejected their “invitation.”

Accept Islam or suffer. That's compulsion.

 

[Alla Prima]

Taking a lot of verses which in no way make anyone compelled to accept Islam and simply proclaiming "compulsion to religion" does not make it so. Can you explain how any of these verses tell us to force people to become Muslims?

Accept Islam or be subdued. That's compulsion. One is being compelled to accept Islam upon the threat of being forced to endure humiliation.

 

[Alla Prima]

no wrong. convert or sell everything and go. leaving does not mean suffer. go look it up. and he never threatend them, so how can you say that.

Leaving one's land - one's home does not mean suffering!? You expect me to buy that nonsense? How about we take your mother's home away from her and see how she feels about that.

And they'll be safe if they accept Islam. That's coercion and coercion is a method to compel someone to do something.

 

[Alla Prima]

Again no. These Jews (only a particular tribe, not all Jews in Madina) had been guilty of treachery against the Muslims and had been waging a campaign against Islam. As a result they where to be expelled however the Prophet said that any who accepted Islam would not be expelled. As the majority of them didn't accept Islam but instead moved to Khyber (where they continued to fight Islam) the how where they compelled to do anything?

You only make my point that these acts were designed to compel the Jews to accept Islam.

 

[Alla Prima]

What Muhammad did reminds me of what Don Vito Corleone said in the movie The Godfather - "I'll make him an offer he can't refuse".