Apostates of Islam

[England my lionheart]

The fact remains,the precedent is set in the Ahadith,the punishment for Apostacy is death,not a big kiss and you are forgiven,all the Hadith i have quoted are either Bukhari or Muslim and are Sahih,if they contradicted the Quran they could not be Sahih.

 

[AbuKhalid]

The fact remains,the precedent is set in the Ahadith,the punishment for Apostacy is death,not a big kiss and you are forgiven,all the Hadith i have quoted are either Bukhari or Muslim and are Sahih,if they contradicted the Quran they could not be Sahih.

Completely true and for Sunni Muslims these Sahih Ahadith are the second foundation of Islamic law after the Quran. The fact that so many Muslims seem to be ignorant of this is astonishing, especially when people like England who isn't a Muslim can fully grasp this concept.

 

[England my lionheart]

Completely true and for Sunni Muslims these Sahih Ahadith are the second foundation of Islamic law after the Quran. The fact that so many Muslims seem to be ignorant of this is astonishing, especially when people like England who isn't a Muslim can fully grasp this concept.

Thanks again,this is what suprises me,to me Islam isn't a religion you can practice half heartedly,i cannot see how you can Cherrypick,there are some Muslims on this Forum who seem to have less knowledge of Islam than i do which is something i cannot understand.

 

[.lava]

Hoho, that’s rich! You spoke to me about taking Qur’ânic verses ‘out of context’, and what have you done here? Let’s have a look at the whole ayat and those surrounding it, shall we?



So what’s your point?

my point is some Imams invite hell and some Imams invite heaven. they are both mentioned in Qur'an.

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[.lava]

The fact remains,the precedent is set in the Ahadith,the punishment for Apostacy is death,not a big kiss and you are forgiven,all the Hadith i have quoted are either Bukhari or Muslim and are Sahih,if they contradicted the Quran they could not be Sahih.

and if there was a hadith that says "if you have two daughters and your third child was another girl, you give her to someone who can not have kids" that would not contradict with Qur'an either. if you really need specific verse that says "do not do this", then there could be thousands of hadiths that would not contradict. you have to care for all verses. as long as there is a verse that says "Let there be no compulsion in religion" you can not kill someone for leaving this or that. if that is not compulsion then i do not know what is.


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[Alla Prima]

and if there was a hadith that says "if you have two daughters and your third child was another girl, you give her to someone who can not have kids" that would not contradict with Qur'an either. if you really need specific verse that says "do not do this", then there could be thousands of hadiths that would not contradict. you have to care for all verses. as long as there is a verse that says "Let there be no compulsion in religion" you can not kill someone for leaving this or that. if that is not compulsion then i do not know what is.


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Sorry but that one's false too lava and we all know it.

 

[.lava]

Sorry but that one's false too lava and we all know it.

which one is false? let there be no compulsion in religion? it is openly said in the book.

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[Alla Prima]

which one is false? let there be no compulsion in religion? it is openly said in the book.

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Yes the line I boldened. I know what it says in the Koran but that command is contradicted in so many other places (the killing of apostates not being the least) that the line is rendered meaningless.

 

[England my lionheart]

and if there was a hadith that says "if you have two daughters and your third child was another girl, you give her to someone who can not have kids" that would not contradict with Qur'an either. if you really need specific verse that says "do not do this", then there could be thousands of hadiths that would not contradict. you have to care for all verses. as long as there is a verse that says "Let there be no compulsion in religion" you can not kill someone for leaving this or that. if that is not compulsion then i do not know what is.


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Allah says: “So if they dispute with you, say ‘I have submitted my whole self to Allah, and so have those who follow me.’ And say to the People of the Scripture and to the unlearned: ‘Do you also submit yourselves?’ If they do, then they are on right guidance. But if they turn away, your duty is only to convey the Message. And in Allah’s sight are all of His servants.” [Sûrah Âl `Imrân: 20]

This is different,this does'nt concern Apostates,this is about non believers either accepting or rejecting Islam,Apostacy is a different kettle of Fish.

 

[ProudMuslim]

Completely true and for Sunni Muslims these Sahih Ahadith are the second foundation of Islamic law after the Quran. The fact that so many Muslims seem to be ignorant of this is astonishing, especially when people like England who isn't a Muslim can fully grasp this concept.

After the Qur'an and not equal to the Qur'an.

The fact that many Muslims are now taking so called "hadiths" with 'sahih' signature on it and apply it on the expense of Quranic commandment is astonishing and sad. The fact that some scholars will invent terms such as 'naskh' (abrogation of verses) to support their agenda speaks volume about the "Islam" they are following. The fact is because of these so called hadiths, many Muslims are no longer Muslims but have been pushed away from their faith and on top of that invites hatred and bitterness towards Islam.

 

[.lava]

Allah says: “So if they dispute with you, say ‘I have submitted my whole self to Allah, and so have those who follow me.’ And say to the People of the Scripture and to the unlearned: ‘Do you also submit yourselves?’ If they do, then they are on right guidance. But if they turn away, your duty is only to convey the Message. And in Allah’s sight are all of His servants.” [Sûrah Âl `Imrân: 20]

This is different,this does'nt concern Apostates,this is about non believers either accepting or rejecting Islam,Apostacy is a different kettle of Fish.

yes different concepts but the religion is the same religion that Allah commands not oppress people.

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[ProudMuslim]

Thanks again,this is what suprises me,to me Islam isn't a religion you can practice half heartedly,i cannot see how you can Cherrypick,there are some Muslims on this Forum who seem to have less knowledge of Islam than i do which is something i cannot understand.

So you are saying Muslims who are against the killing of apostates and the stonning of adulterer are less knowledgable about Islam but those who call for them are educated like yourself?

It is not called Cherrypick, it is called the ability to distinguish between God commandments as delivered by prophet Muhammed (PBUH) and man-made commandement delivered by God knows who covered in the name of Islam.

God created brains for us to question, debate and reason. I and many Muslims refuse to take what is brought forth by some scholars claims as "Islamic" and we use Islam's prime source that is the Qur'an to refute those claims.

I said that before and will repeat it again, hadiths are the saying of the Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) that meant to either explain the verses in the Qur'an (i.e. how to pray) and/or preach on methods to get closer to God. Hadiths were not meant to be like the another Qur'an, where it has its seperate set of laws of what is halal (lawful) and what is haram (forbidden). Any hadith that contradicts the Qur'an and that is by altering, adding or deducting commandments set forward in the Qur'an is a false hadith regardless of its "signature".

So Mr. Englad you are not a Muslim to grasp the importance of this subject. You just copy and paste some "hadiths" to support a claim you make and because you insist and want to insist on your claim, any Muslim who gives you different yet valid explanation of why such claims are not Islamic or at least should not be Islamic, you go ahead and accuse them of being "less knowledgable" of Islam.

 

[Alla Prima]

After the Qur'an and not equal to the Qur'an.

The fact that many Muslims are now taking so called "hadiths" with 'sahih' signature on it and apply it on the expense of Quranic commandment is astonishing and sad. The fact that some scholars will invent terms such as 'naskh' (abrogation of verses) to support their agenda speaks volume about the "Islam" they are following. The fact is because of these so called hadiths, many Muslims are no longer Muslims but have been pushed away from their faith and on top of that invites hatred and bitterness towards Islam.

There is no question that Islam is the messiest, most disorganized and disagreed upon ideology in existence. No wonder we have so many Muslim terrorists. Any position, whether peaceful or violent, can be drawn from it.

 

[ProudMuslim]

Yes the line I boldened. I know what it says in the Koran but that command is contradicted in so many other places (the killing of apostates not being the least) that the line is rendered meaningless.

Then go and criticise those who contradict this verse, criticise those who pretend to follow the Qur'an and yet they contradict it. It's as if i criticise every government for having murderers among their citizens even though it is in their law that murder is illegal.

What you are doing is senseless and you know it.

 

[ProudMuslim]

There is no question that Islam is the messiest, most disorganized and disagreed upon ideology in existence.

Islam idealogy is derived from the Qur'an which is infallible and has one version only in the entire world. Therefore, the idealogy is fixed, obvious and clear for anyone with brains.

The mess created by some Muslims and endorsed by other non-Muslims only speak about their ability to think and function and in some cases about their hidden motives and agenda.

No wonder we have so many Muslim terrorists.

Terrorism is born out of oppression and injustice.

Any position, whether peaceful or violent, can be drawn from it.

Again this can be applied on any religion like Christianity.

 

[.lava]

So you are saying Muslims who are against the killing of apostates and the stonning of adulterer are less knowledgable about Islam but those who call for them are educated like yourself?

i agree with everything you say. especially stonning people to death as punishment of adultery is an obvious example that some Muslims take hadith over Qur'an. because punishment of adultery is written in Qur'an but it is not stoning. it is hadiths that say that and unfortuantely as if punishment of adultery was not mentioned in Qur'an they practice hadith, they simply ignore verse about it. why would a Muslim agrees to follow a hadith over verse of Qur'an?

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[.lava]

Thanks again,this is what suprises me,to me Islam isn't a religion you can practice half heartedly,i cannot see how you can Cherrypick,there are some Muslims on this Forum who seem to have less knowledge of Islam than i do which is something i cannot understand.

is it me that you're calling "half hearted" here because i stand against killing people for using their free will?

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[Alla Prima]

Again this can be applied on any religion like Christianity.

The difference is Christianity has been pacified. Islam hasn't.

 

[Alla Prima]

Then go and criticise those who contradict this verse, criticise those who pretend to follow the Qur'an and yet they contradict it. It's as if i criticise every government for having murderers among their citizens even though it is in their law that murder is illegal.

What you are doing is senseless and you know it.

No - what I am doing is defending our freedoms against an ideology that would steal them from us. As to the contradictions - Islamic teachings themselves contradict the command of no compulsion which is why so many Muslims force their ideology on others.

 

[ProudMuslim]

The difference is Christianity has been pacified. Islam hasn't.

Well instead of calling "death to Islam" and brewing the situation, why not encourage the progressive Muslims to reform the situation and give it some time like Christianity to be "pacified".