Apostates of Islam

[Gharib]

hang on hang one veryone, i personaly have been thinking about some verses in the quran and by that i have sort of figured it out which appostates should be killed and which shouldn't. i'm am not a scholar but my views on it do seem reasonable.

here are some verses;

[4:48] GOD does not forgive idolatry, but He forgives lesser offenses for whomever He wills. Anyone who sets up idols beside GOD, has forged a horrendous offense.

[4:116] GOD does not forgive idol worship (if maintained until death), and He forgives lesser offenses for whomever He wills. Anyone who idolizes any idol beside GOD has strayed far astray.

[5:72] Pagans indeed are those who say that GOD is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah himself said, "O Children of Israel, you shall worship GOD; my Lord and your Lord." Anyone who sets up any idol beside GOD, GOD has forbidden Paradise for him, and his destiny is Hell. The wicked have no helpers.

[5:82] You will find that the worst enemies of the believers are the Jews and the idol worshipers. And you will find that the closest people in friendship to the believers are those who say, "We are Christian." This is because they have priests and monks among them, and they are not arrogant.

in these verses Allah is telling us that the worst of his creatures are those who associate partners to him, therefore the only appostates who would be killed are those who believe that god does not exist, and those who say that god has partners. but the problem is that the quran does not say to kill apostates, so if any hadith exists about apostacy it must be related to these verses and it must not contradict them.

but i personally do not have a clue or a better understanding of this other than that. and i do not know whether appostates should be killed or not, so i too am just like the rest of you, trying to learn about this issue.

can someone please let me know if i am wrong or please do correct me.

 

[England my lionheart]

I dunno… As I pointed out here…

Exactly,there is enough there for any hardcore Muslim to see

 

[ProudMuslim]

Which is,kill the Apostate

Nope, the Qur'an does not say that at all. The Qur'an promises after life punishment.

It's clear that Islam sanctions the killing of apostates. Muslims can deny it all they want but until these verses and others are expunged from the books of Islam apostasy will be punishable by death and apostates will fear leaving Islam

Rubbish. I know you wish this the truth, but it isn't.

I dunno… As I pointed out here…

Yes we know. The Qur'an does not order the killing of apostates, otherwise those who call for the death of apostates would cite Qur'anic verse and not some "hadiths". The same applied for stonning to death.

 

[ProudMuslim]

Which is part of the teachings of Islam.

Only the ones that do not contradict the Qur'anic verses are part of the teachings of Islam. And by contradict it means violate, add or deduct a commandment, prohibition or lawful act mentioned already in the Qur'an.

 

[England my lionheart]

Only the ones that do not contradict the Qur'anic verses are part of the teachings of Islam. And by contradict it means violate, add or deduct a commandment, prohibition or lawful act mentioned already in the Qur'an.

Even sahih Hadith

 

[.lava]

hang on hang one veryone, i personaly have been thinking about some verses in the quran and by that i have sort of figured it out which appostates should be killed and which shouldn't. i'm am not a scholar but my views on it do seem reasonable.

here are some verses;

[4:48] GOD does not forgive idolatry, but He forgives lesser offenses for whomever He wills. Anyone who sets up idols beside GOD, has forged a horrendous offense.

[4:116] GOD does not forgive idol worship (if maintained until death), and He forgives lesser offenses for whomever He wills. Anyone who idolizes any idol beside GOD has strayed far astray.

[5:72] Pagans indeed are those who say that GOD is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah himself said, "O Children of Israel, you shall worship GOD; my Lord and your Lord." Anyone who sets up any idol beside GOD, GOD has forbidden Paradise for him, and his destiny is Hell. The wicked have no helpers.

[5:82] You will find that the worst enemies of the believers are the Jews and the idol worshipers. And you will find that the closest people in friendship to the believers are those who say, "We are Christian." This is because they have priests and monks among them, and they are not arrogant.

in these verses Allah is telling us that the worst of his creatures are those who associate partners to him, therefore the only appostates who would be killed are those who believe that god does not exist, and those who say that god has partners. but the problem is that the quran does not say to kill apostates, so if any hadith exists about apostacy it must be related to these verses and it must not contradict them.

but i personally do not have a clue or a better understanding of this other than that. and i do not know whether appostates should be killed or not, so i too am just like the rest of you, trying to learn about this issue.

can someone please let me know if i am wrong or please do correct me.

my dear friend, there is only one death penalty written in Qur'an. just one.

.

 

[.lava]

I dunno… As I pointed out here…

2:217 — He among you who retracts his religion and dies as an unbeliever, these are people whose works shall come to nothing in this world and the next.

2:217 They ask thee concerning fighting in the Prohibited Month. Say: "Fighting therein is a grave (offence); but graver is it in the sight of Allah to prevent access to the path of Allah, to deny Him, to prevent access to the Sacred Mosque, and drive out its members." Tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter. Nor will they cease fighting you until they turn you back from your faith if they can. And if any of you Turn back from their faith and die in unbelief, their works will bear no fruit in this life and in the Hereafter; they will be companions of the Fire and will abide therein.

so? what is it have to do with killing disbeliever?

5:33 — In truth, the punishment of those who make war against God and His Messenger, and roam the earth corrupting it, is that they be killed, or crucified, or have their hands and feet amputated, alternately, or be exiled from the land. This would be their shame in the present life, and in the next a terrible torment awaits them.

yes, this is the punishment for those who fight against messenger of Allah. but this is not about apostates either.

5:54 — O believers, whoso among you shall apostatize from his religion, let him know that God will bring forth a people whom He loves and who love Him, humble towards the believers but mighty against the unbelievers, who exert themselves in the cause of God, and fear no blame from any quarter.

5:54 O you who believe! whoever from among you turns back from his religion, then Allah will bring a people, He shall love them and they shall love Him, lowly before the believers, mighty against the unbelievers, they shall strive hard in Allah's way and shall not fear the censure of any censurer; this is Allah's Face, He gives it to whom He pleases, and Allah is Ample-giving, Knowing.

9:74 — If they turn away, God will torment them with a torment most painful in this life and in the hereafter.

9:74 They swear by Allah that they did not speak, and certainly they did speak, the word of unbelief, and disbelieved after their Islam, and they had determined upon what they have not been able to effect, and they did not find fault except because Allah and His Messenger enriched them out of His grace; therefore if they repent, it will be good for them; and if they turn back, Allah will chastise them with a painful chastisement in this world and the hereafter, and they shall not have in the land any guardian or a helper.

i see no connection between these verses and death penalty of apostates. could you please tell me why you gave this link?


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[England my lionheart]

2:217 — He among you who retracts his religion and dies as an unbeliever, these are people whose works shall come to nothing in this world and the next.

2:217 They ask thee concerning fighting in the Prohibited Month. Say: "Fighting therein is a grave (offence); but graver is it in the sight of Allah to prevent access to the path of Allah, to deny Him, to prevent access to the Sacred Mosque, and drive out its members." Tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter. Nor will they cease fighting you until they turn you back from your faith if they can. And if any of you Turn back from their faith and die in unbelief, their works will bear no fruit in this life and in the Hereafter; they will be companions of the Fire and will abide therein.

so? what is it have to do with killing disbeliever?

5:33 — In truth, the punishment of those who make war against God and His Messenger, and roam the earth corrupting it, is that they be killed, or crucified, or have their hands and feet amputated, alternately, or be exiled from the land. This would be their shame in the present life, and in the next a terrible torment awaits them.

yes, this is the punishment for those who fight against messenger of Allah. but this is not about apostates either.

5:54 — O believers, whoso among you shall apostatize from his religion, let him know that God will bring forth a people whom He loves and who love Him, humble towards the believers but mighty against the unbelievers, who exert themselves in the cause of God, and fear no blame from any quarter.

5:54 O you who believe! whoever from among you turns back from his religion, then Allah will bring a people, He shall love them and they shall love Him, lowly before the believers, mighty against the unbelievers, they shall strive hard in Allah's way and shall not fear the censure of any censurer; this is Allah's Face, He gives it to whom He pleases, and Allah is Ample-giving, Knowing.

9:74 — If they turn away, God will torment them with a torment most painful in this life and in the hereafter.

9:74 They swear by Allah that they did not speak, and certainly they did speak, the word of unbelief, and disbelieved after their Islam, and they had determined upon what they have not been able to effect, and they did not find fault except because Allah and His Messenger enriched them out of His grace; therefore if they repent, it will be good for them; and if they turn back, Allah will chastise them with a painful chastisement in this world and the hereafter, and they shall not have in the land any guardian or a helper.

i see no connection between these verses and death penalty of apostates. could you please tell me why you gave this link?


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Hi Lava,i gave it because it is enough for some Muslims and i mean some to take it to mean death to apostates.

 

[.lava]

Hi Lava,i gave it because it is enough for some Muslims and i mean some to take it to mean death to apostates.

but verses say "if they die as one...". it makes no sense if this is interpreted that way. i mean a man could have his faith shaken and could spend years away from religion but noone can say it for sure he is gonna die as a disbeliever.


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[England my lionheart]

5:54 — O believers, whoso among you shall apostatize from his religion, let him know that God will bring forth a people whom He loves and who love Him, humble towards the believers but mighty against the unbelievers, who exert themselves in the cause of God, and fear no blame from any quarter.
This one is a possible culprit

 

[.lava]

5:54 — O believers, whoso among you shall apostatize from his religion, let him know that God will bring forth a people whom He loves and who love Him, humble towards the believers but mighty against the unbelievers, who exert themselves in the cause of God, and fear no blame from any quarter.
This one is a possible culprit

you are aware it is God who's mighty against disbelievers, right?

15.fî sebîli allâhi: Allâh'ın (cc.) yolunda16.ve lâ yehâfûne: ve korkmazlar17.levmete lâimin: kınayanın kınaması

15= in the path of Allah
16=and they are not afraid
17...here i would have to use dictionary to translate but that does not mean quarter. in Turkish it is "kınamak"

kınamak/ı/ to condemn, censure.
kınamak: blame, condemn, reproach, disapprove, reprove, castigate, censure, decry, denounce, fault, remonstrate, reprimand, reprobate, slate, stigmatize, strafe

levmete laimin is like blame of blamer or disapprove of disapprover. so it says "they are not afraid of blame of blamer." that is true. i still do not see how it is about killing apostates. a Muslim should not just do whatever he wants because he is a Muslim. i mean maybe some people can come up with idea that they could do anything they want and they would not care if they were blamed. but a Muslim should not leave circle of Islam either. for example i know some women who were blamed and condemned because they choosed to wear hijab. before they were not wearing hijab. some even had western life style so their friends wre like them. but they felt like they want to wear hijab and their friends disliked this situation. most of their friends abandoned them. but these ladies did not care because peace they felt within them truly worth it. that peaceful feeling in ourselves are from God. this is an example for this verse i can think of at the moment. cos it happens quite a lot. a friend of mine first welcomed me and when i told her i perform salaats and i love Islam she did not want to talk to me again. even if everyone around me left me alone, God would not and that is all i need, help and blessing of God.

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[England my lionheart]

you are aware it is God who's mighty against disbelievers, right?

15.fî sebîli allâhi: Allâh'ın (cc.) yolunda16.ve lâ yehâfûne: ve korkmazlar17.levmete lâimin: kınayanın kınaması

15= in the path of Allah
16=and they are not afraid
17...here i would have to use dictionary to translate but that does not mean quarter. in Turkish it is "kınamak"

kınamak/ı/ to condemn, censure.
kınamak: blame, condemn, reproach, disapprove, reprove, castigate, censure, decry, denounce, fault, remonstrate, reprimand, reprobate, slate, stigmatize, strafe

levmete laimin is like blame of blamer or disapprove of disapprover. so it says "they are not afraid of blame of blamer." that is true. i still do not see how it is about killing apostates. a Muslim should not just do whatever he wants because he is a Muslim. i mean maybe some people can come up with idea that they could do anything they want and they would not care if they were blamed. but a Muslim should not leave circle of Islam either. for example i know some women who were blamed and condemned because they choosed to wear hijab. before they were not wearing hijab. some even had western life style so their friends wre like them. but they felt like they want to wear hijab and their friends disliked this situation. most of their friends abandoned them. but these ladies did not care because peace they felt within them truly worth it. that peaceful feeling in ourselves are from God. this is an example for this verse i can think of at the moment. cos it happens quite a lot. a friend of mine first welcomed me and when i told her i perform salaats and i love Islam she did not want to talk to me again. even if everyone around me left me alone, God would not and that is all i need, help and blessing of God.

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Thats cool Lava and if every Muslim were like you this discussion would'nt happen,the Quran as far as i can see,does not call for death for apostacy outright,it is the Hadiths that set a precedent and are open to interpretation.

 

[Alla Prima]

Only the ones that do not contradict the Qur'anic verses are part of the teachings of Islam. And by contradict it means violate, add or deduct a commandment, prohibition or lawful act mentioned already in the Qur'an.

There are two Korans as differentiated by the eariler more peaceful Meccan period of Mohammed's career to the later more violent Medinan period so almost anything can be argued to be contradictory to the Koran.

 

[Alla Prima]

my dear friend, there is only one death penalty written in Qur'an. just one.

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“The most authentic book after the Holy Qur’an.” This is the conclusion that every learned religious Scholar came to. No matter how great these Scholars were, they were forced to unanimously agree that ‘Sahih Al-Bukhari’ is the most authentic work in Hadith literature ever compiled.

http://www.ummah.net/Al_adaab/hadith/bukhari/index.html



Sahih Bukhari

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 260:


Ali burnt some people and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' "

Volume 9, Book 83, Number 37:

I said, "By Allah, Allah's Apostle never killed anyone except in one of the following three situations: (1) A person who killed somebody unjustly, was killed (in Qisas,) (2) a married person who committed illegal sexual intercourse and (3) a man who fought against Allah and His Apostle and deserted Islam and became an apostate."

Volume 9, Book 84, Number 57:

Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to 'Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn 'Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's Apostle forbade it, saying, 'Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire).' I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"

Volume 9, Book 89, Number 271:

A man embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism. Mu'adh bin Jabal came and saw the man with Abu Musa. Mu'adh asked, "What is wrong with this (man)?" Abu Musa replied, "He embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism." Mu'adh said, "I will not sit down unless you kill him (as it is) the verdict of Allah and His Apostle

Volume 9, Book 84, Number 58:

There was a fettered man beside Abu Muisa. Mu'adh asked, "Who is this (man)?" Abu Muisa said, "He was a Jew and became a Muslim and then reverted back to Judaism." Then Abu Muisa requested Mu'adh to sit down but Mu'adh said, "I will not sit down till he has been killed. This is the judgment of Allah and His Apostle (for such cases) and repeated it thrice. Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed.

 

[.lava]

:angel2:

no reason to reply to me, Alla Prima.

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[Alla Prima]

no reason to reply to me, Alla Prima.

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I'm not replying to you. I'm replying to your comments so that others can see my rebuttal. You're free to ignore me and my responses.

 

[Gharib]

my dear friend, there is only one death penalty written in Qur'an. just one.

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what is it? can you tell me

 

[.lava]

I'm not replying to you. I'm replying to your comments so that others can see my rebuttal. You're free to ignore me and my responses.

OK so let me say what i've been saying again because none of the things you say did not prove other wise. there is only one death penalty IN QUR'AN.

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[.lava]

what is it? can you tell me

there is death penalty for those who try to kill messenger of God. i can't recall the number of surah but i find out if you want me too

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[Gharib]

there is death penalty for those who try to kill messenger of God. i can't recall the number of surah but i find out if you want me too

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oh yeah now i know, Allah punished the people who killed the prophets sent to them.
it's that one isn't it?