Apostates of Islam

[Kodanshi]

Amusingly, the Qur’ân contains contradictory passages about satan leading people astray. Contradictory, because most of the passages state that none other than allah itself seals people’s hearts and leads them astray. I’ve started compiling occurrences in the Qur’ân but it proves kinda hard–going because it’s not a simple matter of online word–searching a specific root (such as the word for ‘seal&#8217 because at other times allah places a ‘cover’ over people’s hearts. Much of the early surahs (as in found towards the start of the book) feature actively leading people astray.

I suspect that in part this came from Muhammad wanting to show allah as all–powerful and that things couldn’t happen without its permission, but it has had the unfortunate side–effect of turning allah into a sort of satan character!

 

[Alla Prima]

soft jihad? how would you call this discussion that we all take a part? you know, Jihad means war. we did not invent it. so ys, if a foreign army with its guns go into an Islamic land of course local people would take that as a war sign. what would you do? for last decade i keep hearing some Western saying things like "Oh Muslims want to kill us all" they keep saying it over and over again and all we see is American soldiers in Iraq, 1.5 million Muslim deaths. all the accusations you make are actually are the things your people practice. but hey, they do not call it jihad. wow, so it is not bad, isn't it? you look within your nation, critize your own culture where young people, students take a gun once in a while and kill his own friends, you look at those cimes being commited instead of critizing people your people kill every single day. and if you had time explain me why are you in Middle East killing Muslims, ruining homes, breaking down our schools, killing our scientists, raping our women. while reality shows these facts of how cruel, violent, injust and inhumane you ARE, how dare you come tell us our religion our culture as if you know it better than we do? first explain and clean your own dirt. it is your people who's killing with no mercy, your people stealing future of unborn Muslim kids. which Muslim army is there in any non-Muslim nation trying to change your religion or system for God's sake? it is yours invading urs to change our culture and religion. you do not see that? well maybe someday you will, if not you then your child will see the truth.


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If the Middle East learned how to behave itself, it would no doubt be left in peace.

 

[kai]

a very large proportion of deaths in Iraq are due to "insurgency" roadside bombs, suicide bombs etc. could any Muslims try to explain to me how Muslims justify Killing other Muslims? like sunni attacks on Shia and vice versa ?, what are they using to legitimise these acts? is there something in the Quran or sunnah to justify killing Shia? Take a look at April and explain how a muslim justifies the 58 fellow muslims killed in car bombs? Its a genuine Question i am puzzled why or how such acts could find justification by Muslims.

Wednesday 29 April: 64 dead

Baghdad: 58 killed by car bombs.
Tameem
Riyadh: US forces kill 2 after coming under attack.
Ninewa
Mosul: 2 policemen killed in separate incidents; girl's body found beheaded.
Basra
Basra: former translator for British Army is shot dead.


Recent Events :: Iraq Body Count

 

[Sahar]

a very large proportion of deaths in Iraq are due to "insurgency" roadside bombs, suicide bombs etc. could any Muslims try to explain to me how Muslims justify Killing other Muslims? like sunni attacks on Shia and vice versa ?, what are they using to legitimise these acts? is there something in the Quran or sunnah to justify killing Shia?

Wednesday 29 April: 64 dead

Baghdad: 58 killed by car bombs.
Tameem
Riyadh: US forces kill 2 after coming under attack.
Ninewa
Mosul: 2 policemen killed in separate incidents; girl's body found beheaded.
Basra
Basra: former translator for British Army is shot dead.


Recent Events :: Iraq Body Count

Why don't you go and ask them? I am sure that none of the Muslims here is a suicide bomber!!

 

[kai]

Why don't you go and ask them? I am sure that none of the Muslims here is a suicide bomber!!

Please just answer the question not4me and stop being so clever, are you moonlighting as a stand up comedian in the evenings?. How does a sunni muslim find justification in Quran, sunnah, etc to kill Shia? or blow up a Shia Mosque? If there is no justification then just say so, I am asking a question many people are puzzled about. If its criminal or tribal then fair enough.

 

[Gharib]

Please just answer the question not4me and stop being so clever. How does a sunni muslim find justification in Quran, sunnah, etc to kill Shia? or blow up a Shia Mosque? If there is no justification then just say so, I am asking a question many people are puzzled about. If its criminal or tribal then fair enough.

why don't you go and ask them? LOL

 

[kai]

why don't you go and ask them? LOL

yes very funny, she should be on the stage and would make a fortune

tell me eselam do you know of any reason why Muslims would kill each other? how do you view Shia? what do you think is behind it ? do you think there is no Islamic justification for this? is it Criminal?


I know this is old but do you or any othe muslims have a comment?

the leader of the insurgency, al-Qaida's Abu Musab al-Zarqawi openly called for a jihad on Shias, in effect denying that they were Muslims at all. There was virtually no condemnation of this shocking statement by Sunni Muslim clerics or political leaders in other Arab countries.

http://www.unc.edu/depts/diplomat/item/2006/0406/rubi/rubin_sunnishia.html



I am seeking an understanding here! trying to show that either the Quran ,Sunnah etc IS being used to justify acts of violence or not

 

[Gharib]

yes very funny, she should be on the stage and would make a fortune

tell me eselam do you know of any reason why Muslims would kill each other? how do you view Shia? what do you think is behind it ? do you think there is no Islamic justification for this? is it Criminal?


I know this is old but do you or any othe muslims have a comment?

the leader of the insurgency, al-Qaida's Abu Musab al-Zarqawi openly called for a jihad on Shias, in effect denying that they were Muslims at all. There was virtually no condemnation of this shocking statement by Sunni Muslim clerics or political leaders in other Arab countries.

Rubin | Sunni versus Shia

you have found the right person to ask about this Kai.

too bad i don't have an answer. how am i sopposed to answer that, when those guys have nothing to do with us/ me.

i have not studied the war on iraq, and it wasn't me who started it. it is your country who is there "defending the people" so why don't you go ask tony blaire or gordon brown, they should know, this is their conspiracy. they controll it, they call the shots.

i don't think any muslim on RF is wasting their time studying something that belongs in the trash. whats the point anyway?

 

[kai]

you have found the right person to ask about this Kai.
Oh good
too bad i don't have an answer. how am i supposed to answer that, when those guys have nothing to do with us/ me.
Easy i asked of your opinion thats all
i have not studied the war on Iraq, and it wasn't me who started it. it is your country who is there "defending the people" so why don't you go ask tony blaire or gordon brown, they should know, this is their conspiracy. they controll it, they call the shots.
Sorry they are as confused as me, Muslim on Muslim violence could only really be explained by Muslims dont you think?
i don't think any muslim on RF is wasting their time studying something that belongs in the trash. whats the point anyway?

What a shame i was hoping for some answers,

I will tell you my way of thinking anyway. Its criminal! there is no legitimate Quranic argument for Sunni Shia violence.
Its a tactic used by evil men to warp Quran ,Sunnah to influence the gullible to attack fellow Muslims.
now i may be wrong ,after all i am not a Muslim ,thats why i asked the question.

 

[Gharib]

I will tell you my way of thinking anyway. Its criminal! there is no legitimate Quranic argument for Sunni Shia violence.
Its a tactic used by evil men to warp Quran ,Sunnah to influence the gullible to attack fellow Muslims.

precisely, thats why i said go ask blaire about it.

now i may be wrong ,after all i am not a Muslim ,thats why i asked the question.

well i'm not into that stuff. so i would not have a clue. what i do have a clue about is that the invading forces are behind all of that.

 

[AbuKhalid]

Well the Koran sees it otherwise. All unbelievers are bound for hell-fire. I reject your comment.

Recognising them as having value is different from whether or not their followers will go to hell. I gave an example of how we clearly see values in other religions.

 

[AbuKhalid]

If the Middle East learned how to behave itself, it would no doubt be left in peace.

Well if the crusaders behaved we would leave them in peace.

 

[AbuKhalid]

Take a look at April and explain how a muslim justifies the 58 fellow muslims killed in car bombs?

It depends. You would have to look at who these people where and make an individual judgement in each case. if they where going about their lives and where just killed then there is no justification for it. If on the other hand they where assisting the occupation then their death although regretful was justified. Anyone who assists those waging war against Muslims is deemed an apostate because to do so is an act of disbelief in the revelation of Allah and the guidance of His Messenger (SAW). The scholars argue that even moral support for the enemies of Islam can remove you from the Deen.

how do you view Shia?

They are a deviant sect and whether or not they are Muslim is again depended on the person themselves. Their Imams and Ayatollahs have all removed themselves from Islam as they fully believe the wicked things they do and follow. As for the ordinary Shia on the street, if they fully understand and follow some of these Shia beliefs then they are the same, if not they are still Muslims but seriously misguided.

i don't think any muslim on RF is wasting their time studying something that belongs in the trash. whats the point anyway?

You really should be studying it and the plight of Muslims everywhere. As the Prophet (SAW) said we are one body and if one of us is hurt then all of us are. Also the fact that if you are an adult and are not insane and are financially able to then you are obligated to fight in defence of Iraq so studying this issue would seriously benefit you.

 

[Sahar]

Please just answer the question not4me and stop being so clever, are you moonlighting as a stand up comedian in the evenings?. How does a sunni muslim find justification in Quran, sunnah, etc to kill Shia? or blow up a Shia Mosque?

And how am I supposed to know?

If there is no justification then just say so, I am asking a question many people are puzzled about. If its criminal or tribal then fair enough.

What do you expect me to say? "Yea, this is justified in Islam"?!
Seriously, what are you waiting for?

I don't know why Muslims are supposed to be the spokesman of every criminal and terrorist who happened to be Muslim.

 

[Alla Prima]

Recognising them as having value is different from whether or not their followers will go to hell. I gave an example of how we clearly see values in other religions.

Oh please. All unbelief is treated as worthy of the absolute worst there is according to Islam.

 

[Alla Prima]

Well if the crusaders behaved we would leave them in peace.

There are no crusaders.

 

[AbuKhalid]

There are no crusaders.

http://www.youtube.com/v/hVGmbzDLq5c&hl=en&fs=1

Tell that to them.

Oh please. All unbelief is treated as worthy of the absolute worst there is according to Islam.

True, but this is different from saying that there is no value in their religion as I have shown.

 

[kai]

And how am I supposed to know?
Then just say i dont know! Duh!
What do you expect me to say? "Yea, this is justified in Islam"?!
Seriously, what are you waiting for?
i was asking a question ,what the heck is going on there what is al this anomosity between sunni and shia? and what justifies the killing?
I don't know why Muslims are supposed to be the spokesman of every criminal and terrorist who happened to be Muslim.

so you agree with me that its criminal ,great ,thanks. i like it when we agree.

 

[kai]

precisely, thats why i said go ask blaire about it.


Ok you think i should ask Tony Blair ?


well i'm not into that stuff. so i would not have a clue. what i do have a clue about is that the invading forces are behind all of that.

you have a clue, then you dont, but your clue is the invading forces are behind it OK thanks

 

[kai]

It depends. You would have to look at who these people where and make an individual judgement in each case. if they where going about their lives and where just killed then there is no justification for it. If on the other hand they where assisting the occupation then their death although regretful was justified. Anyone who assists those waging war against Muslims is deemed an apostate because to do so is an act of disbelief in the revelation of Allah and the guidance of His Messenger (SAW). The scholars argue that even moral support for the enemies of Islam can remove you from the Deen.
OK thanks
They are a deviant sect and whether or not they are Muslim is again depended on the person themselves. Their Imams and Ayatollahs have all removed themselves from Islam as they fully believe the wicked things they do and follow. As for the ordinary Shia on the street, if they fully understand and follow some of these Shia beliefs then they are the same, if not they are still Muslims but seriously misguided.

But is there any justification at all, in your opinion, in violence against them ?

You really should be studying it and the plight of Muslims everywhere. As the Prophet (SAW) said we are one body and if one of us is hurt then all of us are. Also the fact that if you are an adult and are not insane and are financially able to then you are obligated to fight in defence of Iraq so studying this issue would seriously benefit you.

would that defence include the prevention of Shia taking over?