Apostates of Islam

[.lava]

If the Middle East learned how to behave itself, it would no doubt be left in peace.

that's a lie. there are permanent army bases American people built in Iraq. they are not teaching Iraqis nothing but what American would do for more oil, more power. as long as there are foreigners with guns in their hands pointed at local people, there would be war.

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[AbuKhalid]

would that defence include the prevention of Shia taking over?

Yes. Muslims lands should be ruled by those who follow the Sunnah of the Prophet (SAW), i.e Sunni Muslims. At least thats how I understand it at the moment, though its not something I have really read alot on so I could be wrong. I will try to check a few sources tonight.

 

[.lava]

a very large proportion of deaths in Iraq are due to "insurgency" roadside bombs, suicide bombs etc. could any Muslims try to explain to me how Muslims justify Killing other Muslims? like sunni attacks on Shia and vice versa ?, what are they using to legitimise these acts? is there something in the Quran or sunnah to justify killing Shia? Take a look at April and explain how a muslim justifies the 58 fellow muslims killed in car bombs? Its a genuine Question i am puzzled why or how such acts could find justification by Muslims.

Wednesday 29 April: 64 dead

Baghdad: 58 killed by car bombs.
Tameem
Riyadh: US forces kill 2 after coming under attack.
Ninewa
Mosul: 2 policemen killed in separate incidents; girl's body found beheaded.
Basra
Basra: former translator for British Army is shot dead.


Recent Events :: Iraq Body Count

let me guess dear Kai, your newspapers never told about those English men who dressed like Arabs and captured by Iraqi police because they were randomly shooting at people walking on the streets. how do you think this struggle between tribe has started in the first place? who placed the first bomb do you think? a Muslim? i am afraid not. that is Western strategy to make people kill each other. first bombs are always placed and went off because/by Western spies who's there to start this war between tribes.

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[kai]

Yes. Muslims lands should be ruled by those who follow the Sunnah of the Prophet (SAW), i.e Sunni Muslims. At least thats how I understand it at the moment, though its not something I have really read alot on so I could be wrong. I will try to check a few sources tonight.

thanks for your answers , i am interested.

 

[AbuKhalid]

Yes. Muslims lands should be ruled by those who follow the Sunnah of the Prophet (SAW), i.e Sunni Muslims. At least thats how I understand it at the moment, though its not something I have really read alot on so I could be wrong. I will try to check a few sources tonight.

I also meant to add that you have to understand that it is an obligation for Muslims to restore the Caliphate and so having the lands of Islam under the control of those actively struggling to do this is a necessary step in that direction.

Also now it is obligatory to remove any government (in the Muslim lands) which doesnt implement the Sharia in full and that would of course mean the Shia as they don't recognise the sources of our Sharia so they would not implement it. It also of course includes every single present day government.

 

[kai]

let me guess dear Kai, your newspapers never told about those English men who dressed like Arabs and captured by Iraqi police because they were randomly shooting at people walking on the streets. how do you think this struggle between tribe has started in the first place? who placed the first bomb do you think? a Muslim? i am afraid not. that is Western strategy to make people kill each other. first bombs are always placed and went off because/by Western spies who's there to start this war between tribes.

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your right Lava my newspapers have not told me that. what is your opinion on sunni shia violence Lava. Is their any justification for it islamically? remember you can lead a horse to water but you cant make it drink. I respectfully presume your view of Shia is not the same as Abu Khalids

 

[kai]

I also meant to add that you have to understand that it is an obligation for Muslims to restore the Caliphate and so having the lands of Islam under the control of those actively struggling to do this is a necessary step in that direction.

Also now it is obligatory to remove any government (in the Muslim lands) which doesnt implement the Sharia in full and that would of course mean the Shia as they don't recognise the sources of our Sharia so they would not implement it. It also of course includes every single present day government.

Thanks that may well be the "reasoning" i was seeking.

 

[.lava]

your right Lava my newspapers have not told me that. what is your opinion on sunni shia violence Lava. Is their any justification for it islamically? remember you can lead a horse to water but you cant make it drink

of course your newspapers haven't said that. you're not supposed to know what's happening in Iraq and Middle East. but dear, do you care?

my opinion on any violance is the same. if you truly want to know what we think for sunni and shia struggle then you need to go back and see definition of a Muslim. who is a Muslim?

a Muslim is;

1-someone who believes Qur'an is word of God.
2-someone who believes there is only one God.
3-someone who believes Mohammad (PBUH) is Prophet and messenger of God.

do you see anything about sunni or shia so far, Kai? there is only one book that's known as word of God. verses and commands there has never changed. but there are sections like sunni, shia...etc. the reason for this, people left Qur'an. instead they practice what this or that Imam said. in other words what they practice is an ideology, no Islam. each section believe they are the right path but Qur'an says none of them are on the right path. Qur'an calls all those who follow sections instead of Qur'an Mushrik.

here you go;

3:105 Be not like those who are divided amongst themselves and fall into disputations after receiving Clear Signs: For them is a dreadful penalty,-

30:31 Turning unto Him (only); and be careful of your duty unto Him and establish worship, and be not of those who ascribe partners (unto Him);
30:32 Those who split up their Religion, and become (mere) Sects,- each party rejoicing in that which is with itself!

according to verses of Qur'an those people who keep this sections alive and enemy to each other are the ones who's ascribing partner unto God. so what should i think about sunni shia struggle? brother killing brother, they end up hell. none of the names of these sections ever mentioned in Qur'an for a reason. none of them are following Qur'an. but the "fire starter" in Middle East are not Muslims. yet it is Muslims who believed and being fooled by this set up. that is a strategy to start civil war. now Western sit back and wait for Muslims to kill each other.


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[keithnurse]

To Lava: On the other thread about apostasy from Islam you acknowledged that there are hadiths which prescribe the death penalty for apostates. You then said those hadiths are fake despite the fact that it is the consensus of Islamic scholars that there are genuine hadiths which prescribe the death penalty for apostates such as Bukhari: "if someone (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him". What evidence do you know of that those hadiths are fake??? It is the consensus of Islamic scholars that Muhammed really did say "if someone (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him".
How can you, a Muslim, go against what Muhammed himself said? Of course I think it is absolutely wrong to kill someone just for changing religions so I say Muhammed was wrong to say what he said.

 

[Alla Prima]

that's a lie. there are permanent army bases American people built in Iraq. they are not teaching Iraqis nothing but what American would do for more oil, more power. as long as there are foreigners with guns in their hands pointed at local people, there would be war.

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If Iraq had been a civilized country no american bases would be there uninvited.

 

[.lava]

To Lava: On the other thread about apostasy from Islam you acknowledged that there are hadiths which prescribe the death penalty for apostates. You then said those hadiths are fake despite the fact that it is the consensus of Islamic scholars that there are genuine hadiths which prescribe the death penalty for apostates such as Bukhari: "if someone (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him". What evidence do you know of that those hadiths are fake??? It is the consensus of Islamic scholars that Muhammed really did say "if someone (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him".
How can you, a Muslim, go against what Muhammed himself said? Of course I think it is absolutely wrong to kill someone just for changing religions so I say Muhammed was wrong to say what he said.

i would not go against anything what Mohammad (PBUH) said. i'll give you that. but we know that there are hundreds of fake hadiths. there is one more hadith noone really talks about. in that hadith Mohammad (PBUH) says that someday his hadith would be argued and we should look Qur'an because his sayings would never contradict with Qur'an.

today, certain practices are discussed because some Muslims and some scholars say they are fake. those hadiths are basicly about stonning people to death, execution of gay people and killing of apostates. stoning people to death is a tradition and practiced as punishment of adultery. i hope this easy one because punishment of adultery is already written in Qur'an and it does not say anything about stoning.

we accept free will as faculty of choice. regardless of what path you choose, it is the same free will you use as mine. it is given by God. this contradicts with one of the verses of Baqara. "let there be no compulsion in religion". every single human being is free to choose what to believe as a given right by God. this right is not given by other people so it shall never be taken away. there are many verses in Qur'an that tell about God is all forgiving, also verses that ask "won't you use your intellect?". those who follow shcolars without questioning are not really using their intellect because each child is considered as a Muslim in case he was born in Islamic land. when he becomes an adult he would make his real choice about his path so that is a possibilty he leaves Islam. that is his choice. he would be using his free will that's given by God. there is nothing wrong about it. imo his choice is wrong but using his free will equal me using my own. you do not need to be super genious to see that. "Let there be no compulsion in religion" on its own is enough to let people chose their own path. if some scholars donot like this then they do not really care for what Qur'an says about humanity.

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[.lava]

If Iraq had been a civilized country no american bases would be there uninvited.

oh how humane. i am sure you would find many things in common with those in case if some Muslims thought America is not civilized enough and come there to up grade your minds. i am sure you welcome them.

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[Alla Prima]

oh how humane.

I wonder if you ever expressed such a sentiment when the dictator of Iraq was poisoning the Kurds.

i am sure you would find many things in common with those in case if some Muslims thought America is not civilized enough and come there to up grade your minds. i am sure you welcome them.

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As an ideology Islam isn't compatible with western liberal democracies so I don't welcome it at all.

 

[keithnurse]

i would not go against anything what Mohammad (PBUH) said. i'll give you that. but we know that there are hundreds of fake hadiths. there is one more hadith noone really talks about. in that hadith Mohammad (PBUH) says that someday his hadith would be argued and we should look Qur'an because his sayings would never contradict with Qur'an.

today, certain practices are discussed because some Muslims and some scholars say they are fake. those hadiths are basicly about stonning people to death, execution of gay people and killing of apostates. stoning people to death is a tradition and practiced as punishment of adultery. i hope this easy one because punishment of adultery is already written in Qur'an and it does not say anything about stoning.

we accept free will as faculty of choice. regardless of what path you choose, it is the same free will you use as mine. it is given by God. this contradicts with one of the verses of Baqara. "let there be no compulsion in religion". every single human being is free to choose what to believe as a given right by God. this right is not given by other people so it shall never be taken away. there are many verses in Qur'an that tell about God is all forgiving, also verses that ask "won't you use your intellect?". those who follow shcolars without questioning are not really using their intellect because each child is considered as a Muslim in case he was born in Islamic land. when he becomes an adult he would make his real choice about his path so that is a possibilty he leaves Islam. that is his choice. he would be using his free will that's given by God. there is nothing wrong about it. imo his choice is wrong but using his free will equal me using my own. you do not need to be super genious to see that. "Let there be no compulsion in religion" on its own is enough to let people chose their own path. if some scholars donot like this then they do not really care for what Qur'an says about humanity.

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You still didn't answer the question, Lava: what evidence can you name that the hadith "if someone ( a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him" is fake? Saying there are hundreds of fake hadiths doesn't mean this hadith is fake. It is NOT just "some scholars" who think this hadith is authentic, it is the overwhelming majority of them who agree that Muhammed did say "if someone ( a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him". What evidence do you have that Muhammed did not say that?

 

[.lava]

You still didn't answer the question, Lava: what evidence can you name that the hadith "if someone ( a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him" is fake? Saying there are hundreds of fake hadiths doesn't mean this hadith is fake. It is NOT just "some scholars" who think this hadith is authentic, it is the overwhelming majority of them who agree that Muhammed did say "if someone ( a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him". What evidence do you have that Muhammed did not say that?

i am sorry if i was not clear enough. Mohammad (PBUH) would not say anything that contradicts with verses of Qur'an. you tell me if killing of apostates contradicts with "let there be no compulsion in religion" or not.

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[keithnurse]

i am sorry if i was not clear enough. Mohammad (PBUH) would not say anything that contradicts with verses of Qur'an. you tell me if killing of apostates contradicts with "let there be no compulsion in religion" or not.

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How do you know he wouldn't contradict the Qur'an? just because you say so? He was a fallible human being like the rest of us. Other Muslims have told me that "let there be no compulsion in religion" only applies to not forcing people to convert to Islam. Once you become Muslim the rules change and there are all kinds of compulsions.

 

[.lava]

I wonder if you ever expressed such a sentiment when the dictator of Iraq was poisoning the Kurds.

funny you should say that Alla Prima. it was America who gave Saddam whatever he needed.

As an ideology Islam isn't compatible with western liberal democracies so I don't welcome it at all.

any, ANY ideology that denies one's free will and freedom of choice is not welcomed by me either. yet i am a Muslim who's following foot steps of Mohammad (PBUH). are you willing to ignore existance of people like me? you want to destroy Islam so bad so you do not even consider me as a Muslim, but God knows i am. that's the main issue here. people who hate idea of One God or submission, they just want all Muslims to be violent murderers because that kind of Muslims give reason to ruin our nations. a Western who does not see that is no better or worse than a Muslim who does not see that. that's the plan. you guys need violent bigot Muslims to invade our nations. this is why no way a non-Muslim read one single good things about Muslims in newspapers. as if, we were not Muslims anymore, our nations would be crime free areas. as if all the crimes are commited because we are Muslims. i am so surprise that adults, educated members of your society buying this pathetic lie. illogical from hair to toe.

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[.lava]

How do you know he wouldn't contradict the Qur'an? just because you say so? He was a fallible human being like the rest of us. Other Muslims have told me that "let there be no compulsion in religion" only applies to not forcing people to convert to Islam. Once you become Muslim the rules change and there are all kinds of compulsions.

because he could not. he did not have free will and he was 100% servant of God which means everything he said was from God, not from him as a person. tat is the same with all Prophets you know, same with Jesus(PBUH) and same with Moses(PBUH).

yes i know how some Muslims interpret that verse. but that verse does not need interpretation. it is crystal clear, no compulsion in religion. let me say it again "IN" religion. rules never change, no. i gave an example to show how illogical that intrepretation is. if i said there is no water in my home, using the same logic there would not be water in my home when you are outside but once you pass the door there would be water enough to kill you. logic does not work that way and also intellect does not work that way. if your intellect OK with this i do not know what to say to you. because it is illogical. it is command of Allah "use your intellect!"

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[.lava]

dear keithnurse, here i quote from a scholar that tells about free will;

5-5- THERE IS NO COMPULSION IN RELIGION

(THERE IS NO FANATICISM IN ISLÂM)

Allah has bestowed the free will on man. He has the right to dispose of it as he wishes. Man who is a social creature is obliged to live together with other men in a society in this worldly life.
Religion is the totality of a divine system containing the relations between the servant and Allah and the relations between the servant and other men within the limits of the Divine Commands. Allahû Tealâ has sent down the Prophets and the Books from his Presence in order to illuminate the human beings who are the owners of the Free Will (the Faculty of Choice).
The Prophets have always explained the Holy Books comprising the laws of Allah to mankind.
Our Lord has explained in the Books He has sent down that the limitless free will of man is the only authority to take decisions in the totality of the orders and relations between the servant and Allah and that no one can meddle with this will and the prophets have communicated them to men of all levels of comprehension.

33/Al-Ahzâb – 45, 46:
O Prophet! Verily, We have sent you as a witness and a bearer of glad tidings and a warner, and as one who invites to Allah by His Leave, and as a lamp spreading light.

It has been explained in the sacred verse that our Master the Prophet was entrusted with a mission for all human beings. Our Lord explains to us within the content of the Glorious Qur’ân that the person who has attained to the level of witnessing has become Islâm (muslim), has realized his surrenders, that is to say, has firstly surrendered his spirit, then his physical body and his soul and finally his free will to Allah.

 

[England my lionheart]

You still didn't answer the question, Lava: what evidence can you name that the hadith "if someone ( a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him" is fake? Saying there are hundreds of fake hadiths doesn't mean this hadith is fake. It is NOT just "some scholars" who think this hadith is authentic, it is the overwhelming majority of them who agree that Muhammed did say "if someone ( a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him". What evidence do you have that Muhammed did not say that?

I would just say that many Muslims will not accept the Ahadith even though Bukhari is Sahih which means it cannot contradict the Quran,the Ahadith do not make pretty reading in this day and age and you can see why when you look at Saudi Arabia.