Gharib
I want Khilafah back
just because you keep repeating it, doesn't make it true.
ok now i know what sort of a person you are. i will deal differently with you from now on.
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Apostates of Islam
- Thread starter England my lionheart
- Start date
just because you keep repeating it, doesn't make it true.
ok now i know what sort of a person you are. i will deal differently with you from now on.
Mr Spinkles
Mr
Oh, I see, that is confusing. I think I confused your argument with eselam. eselam said that there was a death penalty for apostates who proselytize, so the free speech issue was entangled with the apostacy issue.I have two problems now. The first is that I want to discuss the punishment of apostasy as a topic separate from the issue of freedom of speech and proselytizing issue and I can't.
When I asked you about apostasy, Spinkles, it is completely different from the other point of preaching any religion other than Islam, simply because this doesn't need an apostate, it can be done by any non-Muslim who lives in the Islamic state. We can discuss the latter away from the apostasy issue. Confusing those two things is confusing.
Of course, no problem.not4me said:
Gharib
I want Khilafah back
why is everything reflected at me?
what does proselytize mean?
and i still haven't answered you Sprinkles, you have to be a little patient.
Gharib
I want Khilafah back
[/quote]
not quite there.
No actually i agree with .lava and Proud Muslim. Let me explain:
i do not believe appostates should be killed unless in they fit the following criteria:
they are a muslim just to shame islam, so when becoming an apostate they are to be killed if evidence is gathered.
There is a death penalty for people who “become” muslims only to shame islam, pretend that their behaviour is that of islam and how all muslims are. Such people will call themself a muslim, but after they get enough people to actually believe that islam is a bad and false religion, they will anounce their apostacy. so such a person is to be killed but only if evidence is gatthered against them. They are an open enemie to islam and the muslims, we are obligated to punish such people.
An ex-muslim who takes advantage of weaker muslims, take advantage of their lack of knowledge about islam.
A former muslim knows about islam, so it is very easy for them to take advantage of other muslims. In islam it is not permited to take advantage of the weak or the poor. So this person is going around telling muslims that islam is bad religion will get him dead.
When a non muslim becomes a muslim we never ask them why they left the other religion, we always ask how did you find islam. Naturally us muslims believe that islam is the only true religion, so we do not go asking former non muslims why they left their other faith. Any religion that claims to be true should also be doing the same, what does it matter that he left islam, he has left it, thats what they wanted.
So if an ex-muslim preaches to the weak muslims to leave islam, their punishment is death, but if a non muslim preaches to muslims about another faith, they can do so. There is no punishment for them. Do you sort of see my reasoning about why a former muslim gets killed if he preaches to weak muslims?
Note: the following is of my current understanding and reasoning, what i have said may not be the actual ruling of islam and it’s laws.
here is my reasoning:
first of all, the sahih hadiths are true they are not fabricated.
second of all, not all hadiths apply to us, just as not all verses of the quran apply to us.
one hadith about apostacy is " who ever changes his religion kill him" the very words of the prophet (saws).
but that hadith and also many others which may also say something like "kill any jew that you see", do not apply to us.
you see, the first hadith that i quoted, is for the time when the Prophet (saws) was alive and so is the second one.
in the time of the prophet (saws) many people would "declare" the shahada, but they only would do it to spy on the muslims, then they would convert back. so going back to that first hadith "who ever changes his religion kill him" this clearly applies to the Hypocrits, which i am sure also appiles to the hypocrits of today.
but in no way does it apply to every apostate. it only applies to treachurers who declare their shahada for bad reasons, such as to spy or to speak in the name of islam to make it look as a bad religion and then they become apostates, but they cannot be called a hypocrite and get senteced to death if no such evidence is gathered against them.
then there is the second hadith (note: i haven't read any such hadith but am just trying to prove my point, it may not necesaraly be true) "kill any jew that you see"
this hadith clearly applies only to the first muslims, seeing that jews would give their word to the muslims that they would not fight against the muslims, but then they would go against the signed deal.
it does not however, apply to us muslims of today, seeing that the jews are minding their bussines and we are minding ours.
so by that, my point is that all hadiths do not apply to us, i however have not had a chance to ask any scholars my questions on apostacy. so from my understanding apostates ar not to be killed, not even if they speak out about why they left islam. They must not preach to other people to leave islam though.
but i am not an authority of islam to make make my reasoning valid or to tell people to accept my understanding on apostacy.
yes the above is my oppinion. making .lava, Proud Muslim and myself have the same views on this. ( i think)
No thats not right. You see a former muslim preaching to weak muslims is different to a non muslims preaching to weak muslims.
If a person happens to be a scholar and leaves islam, he has a great deal of probability to convert weak muslims. So this is not allowed in islam since clearly he is takking advanae of their lack of knowledge of islam. People would believe him simply because he has studied more and he probably came across something false that the other scholars are hiding. He could make all sorts of things up after he leaves islam. So because he won’t be telling the truth to people he would be making lies about islam to get muslims to leave islam, and that is not permitted.
Let me give you an example:
In an orphanage there are plenty of kids, and one day the kid that is the biggest and the strongest leaves the orphanage. So just because he left, that does not give him the right to take the other smaller kids with him, just because he is stronger and bigger. Naturally the laws of any government would punish that kind of person for taking advantage of their inability to defend themself, agains someone else who is stronger.
yes i too agree on that, if non muslims were to be killed for converting muslims to another belief, then so should muslims be killed for converting others into islam.
But that case is not the one that i think in which the death penalty applies.
not quite there.
No actually i agree with .lava and Proud Muslim. Let me explain:
i do not believe appostates should be killed unless in they fit the following criteria:
they are a muslim just to shame islam, so when becoming an apostate they are to be killed if evidence is gathered.
There is a death penalty for people who “become” muslims only to shame islam, pretend that their behaviour is that of islam and how all muslims are. Such people will call themself a muslim, but after they get enough people to actually believe that islam is a bad and false religion, they will anounce their apostacy. so such a person is to be killed but only if evidence is gatthered against them. They are an open enemie to islam and the muslims, we are obligated to punish such people.
An ex-muslim who takes advantage of weaker muslims, take advantage of their lack of knowledge about islam.
A former muslim knows about islam, so it is very easy for them to take advantage of other muslims. In islam it is not permited to take advantage of the weak or the poor. So this person is going around telling muslims that islam is bad religion will get him dead.
When a non muslim becomes a muslim we never ask them why they left the other religion, we always ask how did you find islam. Naturally us muslims believe that islam is the only true religion, so we do not go asking former non muslims why they left their other faith. Any religion that claims to be true should also be doing the same, what does it matter that he left islam, he has left it, thats what they wanted.
So if an ex-muslim preaches to the weak muslims to leave islam, their punishment is death, but if a non muslim preaches to muslims about another faith, they can do so. There is no punishment for them. Do you sort of see my reasoning about why a former muslim gets killed if he preaches to weak muslims?
Note: the following is of my current understanding and reasoning, what i have said may not be the actual ruling of islam and it’s laws.
here is my reasoning:
first of all, the sahih hadiths are true they are not fabricated.
second of all, not all hadiths apply to us, just as not all verses of the quran apply to us.
one hadith about apostacy is " who ever changes his religion kill him" the very words of the prophet (saws).
but that hadith and also many others which may also say something like "kill any jew that you see", do not apply to us.
you see, the first hadith that i quoted, is for the time when the Prophet (saws) was alive and so is the second one.
in the time of the prophet (saws) many people would "declare" the shahada, but they only would do it to spy on the muslims, then they would convert back. so going back to that first hadith "who ever changes his religion kill him" this clearly applies to the Hypocrits, which i am sure also appiles to the hypocrits of today.
but in no way does it apply to every apostate. it only applies to treachurers who declare their shahada for bad reasons, such as to spy or to speak in the name of islam to make it look as a bad religion and then they become apostates, but they cannot be called a hypocrite and get senteced to death if no such evidence is gathered against them.
then there is the second hadith (note: i haven't read any such hadith but am just trying to prove my point, it may not necesaraly be true) "kill any jew that you see"
this hadith clearly applies only to the first muslims, seeing that jews would give their word to the muslims that they would not fight against the muslims, but then they would go against the signed deal.
it does not however, apply to us muslims of today, seeing that the jews are minding their bussines and we are minding ours.
so by that, my point is that all hadiths do not apply to us, i however have not had a chance to ask any scholars my questions on apostacy. so from my understanding apostates ar not to be killed, not even if they speak out about why they left islam. They must not preach to other people to leave islam though.
but i am not an authority of islam to make make my reasoning valid or to tell people to accept my understanding on apostacy.
yes the above is my oppinion. making .lava, Proud Muslim and myself have the same views on this. ( i think)
No thats not right. You see a former muslim preaching to weak muslims is different to a non muslims preaching to weak muslims.
If a person happens to be a scholar and leaves islam, he has a great deal of probability to convert weak muslims. So this is not allowed in islam since clearly he is takking advanae of their lack of knowledge of islam. People would believe him simply because he has studied more and he probably came across something false that the other scholars are hiding. He could make all sorts of things up after he leaves islam. So because he won’t be telling the truth to people he would be making lies about islam to get muslims to leave islam, and that is not permitted.
Let me give you an example:
In an orphanage there are plenty of kids, and one day the kid that is the biggest and the strongest leaves the orphanage. So just because he left, that does not give him the right to take the other smaller kids with him, just because he is stronger and bigger. Naturally the laws of any government would punish that kind of person for taking advantage of their inability to defend themself, agains someone else who is stronger.
yes i too agree on that, if non muslims were to be killed for converting muslims to another belief, then so should muslims be killed for converting others into islam.
But that case is not the one that i think in which the death penalty applies.
Zindagee Rahmaan
Believing in unity
I wish this was the case in practise within so many Muslim countries. This would make converting from Islam a less...deadly experience.
For example in which case? I think he was a blogger and was a thinker. That is best point to argue with him, because his ignorance was related to thoughts. May be he needed a helping hand to guide him truely about Islam. I visited his blogs it is in Arabic and very diffcult to get his thoughts, would that I were to get full arabic essence to understand him and the reason of why he delt so.
Breathe
Hostis humani generis
But there's nothing wrong with being a blogger or a thinker, especially not a thinker.
It seems unfair to say he needed to truly learn about Islam, the person I believe you are discussing (the Egyptian blogger, right?) lives in a Muslim-majority state.
What I mean by a less deadly experience, is one wouldn't have to fear for their life. For example, remember the convert to Catholicism in... Afghanistan, I think, about a year or two years ago? They wanted to give him the death penalty in his home nation.
The penalty for leaving Islam in many a Muslim country is death, such as Iran and Saudi Arabia - Saudi Arabia is considered by many Muslims, especially amongst the more ultra-conservatives, to be a fine example of how one should live by shari'a law.
For me the very idea that I could be killed simply for changing my faith, something deeply personal, is a troubling thing for me to accept as a legitimate reason for killing someone. Killing someone in self-defence is fine, but this is is nothing more than the worst form of control, and I feel it's an ugly blemish on an otherwise beautiful religion.
Breathe
Hostis humani generis
Response: Straw man. Flawed logic, appeal to emotionalism.
This discussion is about apostates of Islam.
Someone who leaves Islam =/= someone attacking Islam.
Someone attacking Islam do not speak for "ordinary" civilians who leave Islam who are denied basic rights and face the death penalty in certain nations, including Western nations from ultra-conservatives who're willing to ignore the law of the land to take the law of Allah into their own hands.
Those who leave Islam are not given freedom to do so. They are often refused the right to live.
To try and claim that there is a legitimate reason for killing someone who leaves a religion is frankly, just a disgusting mindset. There is no good reason for it.
.lava
Veteran Member
hi
i would like to reply this one again. yesterday i did not have so much time.i do understand that.
first of all, about hijab being banned, i want to say there is a difference between France and Turkey. Turkey is a Muslim nation. banning hijab in Turkey is absurd and weird.
i believe that a healthy society would have any kind of beliefs within itself. there could be people with extreme ideas. decisions should be made by individuals. i mean, if i dislike your opinions, i do not have to talk to you and to be around you. i can chose not to be your friend and that happens. i can not get along with everyone.
on the other hand how would we know the difference between expressing yourself and preaching? i sincerely can not answer this question. matter of fact, if preaching was banned, than, for a Muslim, to have a dinner with a non-Muslim or to chat with an apostate could be dangerious. it could be misunderstood. as you said before, this would make people feel insecure. so yes, i do agree with everything you say because they are wise. this is my personal point of view.
yet there is another aspect. i would understand if you did not have this kind of situations in USA or other Western nations. as i said earlier, foreigners, missionaries abuse poverty of Muslims. they offer them money and in return they want these people to convert other beliefs and when they convert their duty is to preach and invite others to convert. imo this should be illegal. i see there is something terribly wrong. however it is almost impossible to prove the crime here, since someone gives money and ohter just takes it, so what? but the intention is not friendly. abusing poverty like that is something i can not respect. i do not know what you think about it. but i really feel disturbed and these missionaries who's being attacked by Muslims are not being attack just because they are not Muslims. it is because they are fooling young people with money, promises to have passport, permission to work, they also pay for their education. for a young person, you have nothing, these stuff is huge. this is not honesty, this is not expressing yourself. how could a father help his son if he did not have chance to give same options to his son? people lose their kids this way. teenagers just because they were asked to do it, they stop seeing their families. there is a girl here. she just wrote a book about how unnecessary Islam is....a few years ago she was a Muslim, performing her daily stuff and she was very succesful student but she was poor. then these people find her and offer her to pay for her entire education. first she takes off her hijab and eventually she writes this book where she actually mock her past life. her father is dying cos of sadness. once more i do not know solution for this. to me, killing someone is not an ordinary thing. from what i've understood so far killing might occur in wars where some other people trying to kill you and your people. well, there is something ugly going on in my nation and unfortunately the architect of this chaos are non-Muslims and apostates. unfortunately that is the truth. i would not mind people speaking even preaching whatever they believe to adults. but young people like 15-16 years old, young enough to be fooled, young enough to be dragged in directions where they can not see results. or finding 20-25 year old poor people and give them money to do this do that. there is something wrong about this stuff my friend.
.
Alla Prima
Well-Known Member
Then we finished the issue of apostasy here?
I thought the issue was wrapped up pages ago. The punishment for apostasy is death. Pure and simple. This is a punishment Muslims are uncomfortable with because the world condemns it so they're squirming and making excuses such as Hadiths are fake. The honorable thing to do would be admit the reality of the punishment and denounce it as barbaric en masse.
Gharib
I want Khilafah back
if the punishment on apostacy is death i would not to change that just so islam gets your aproval. no way. i don't care about what others think. just becuase everyone drinks alcohol and they think i'm a werido for not drinking like them, that doesn't make me the weirdo, nor do i have to change to please them, everyone is in control of their own life.
.lava
Veteran Member
:clap exactly! i am not willing to change, soften or twist anything about Islam or tell pink sweet lies just to make people like Islam. Islam is Islam, nothing more, nothing less. people either accept it as it is or they do not.
.
Alla Prima
Well-Known Member
So now you're not certain whether or not the punishment for apostasy is death. Good. This is making progress.
Alla Prima
Well-Known Member
An honest response. Good. More progress.
Breathe
Hostis humani generis
That's selfishness, though eselam.
Everyone has the right to freedom of thought and freedom to live and do as they please, so long as they harm nobody. The Qur'an says "There is no compulsion in religion". This is, according to Islam, God's word. The hadith say "if anyone leaves Islam, kill him". This is man's word. Which do you follow, God, or shirk, following ahadith, the words of man as opposed to the words of God?
God does not need people to kill others because they leave Islam. Only God is the one who decides who lives and who dies, and this is what Islam teaches. This means, logically, this must be a fabrication, created to keep those who follow ahadith as opposed to God in power, and anyone who belives otherwise is a mushrik, a follower of shirk. Why do humans get to decide who lives and who dies when they have commited no crime, except the crime of following one's heart and soul to something they prefer?
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Gharib
I want Khilafah back
look if the punishment is real, i would accept it, but at the moment i am just going by my own thinking seeing that i haven't got a scholar to ask, if i do get the chance i and if he says that apostates are to be killed, then his answers must be satisfying. and i will post them here when that happens.
but if anyone thinks that islam is not a real religion, for killing apostates, then take it up with Allah (swt), it's his religion i am only following what he says. i am trying to explain but since no one is listening whats the point in speaking.
that freedom of thought, will lead so many people to hell. so why should they go to hell just becaus of one man.
would it not be reasonable to kill one man infected with a deadly virus before he infects others and would have to kill them all?
first of all, i don't even think that verse about no compultion in religion means what it appears to mean. it has been over used and people refer to that as soon as something comes up, it probably has been missinterpreted many times and it's meaning has been changed.
i will study that verse and i will give you the answer.
no they are not, if the hadiths are false then so should the quran, he cannot be telling lies on one side and the truth on the other. the sahih hadiths are true, as verified by scholars.
This is going nowhere. It might be more beneficial if the Muslims on here who dispute the death sentence for apostasy would concentrate their efforts on persuading Islamic scholars who actually have some influence, not that they have much chance of succeeding. The evidence from the Hadith is much too strong to be obfuscated away by wishful thinking.
Gharib
I want Khilafah back
in which direction?
i do not know for sure, but from my knowledge it seems as though it apostates are not to be killed if they ask for peace and do not become enemies of islam.
Gharib
I want Khilafah back
i think asking a scholar or two might be a good idea, i will try to do that if i can.
Breathe
Hostis humani generis
Ack! I've just changed it.
You were offline a moment ago, so I thought I'd edit it.
Simple thing: leave it to God to decide. God is the only one in charge, after all.
Please note guys, I'm here to learn, and have a healthy debate, I'm not attacking Islam.
You were offline a moment ago, so I thought I'd edit it.
Ok, please do.
Actually, I think it's insulting to Allah to even claim you are following what he says, when ahadith are the word of man, and the Qur'an is the word of God. I understand what you are trying to say, that you want to be a good Muslim. But is killing someone for disagreeing with you really being a good follower of Allah?
That's not even a valid excuse for killing someone because of freedom of thought, though.
Deadly virus =/= leaving Islam. I can understand how you see this, but this is an extremely unfair thing. What if X religion believed the same, and killed Xers who became Muslims? Would you consider that acceptable because that's their religion?
Simple thing: leave it to God to decide. God is the only one in charge, after all.
I understand what you mean here, but the sentence is explicitly "there is no compulsion in religion". There is no need to delve into "deeper meanings". It's there because it's there. It's simple enough to understand, otherwise it's twisting the word of Allah to fit the evil hearts of men.
Ok, thanks.
If any hadith are against the Qur'an, then they are false. This is what every sheikh has said to me. I understand why you say that Muhammad cannot tell lies or sin, but:
- how do you know Muhammad said it, and not someone who lied?
- how do you know Muhammad cannot lie?
- where is it that Muhammad cannot lie, and that hadith cannot be fabricated simply because of the chain of transmission
Please note guys, I'm here to learn, and have a healthy debate, I'm not attacking Islam.