Apostates of Islam

[England my lionheart]

This is going nowhere. It might be more beneficial if the Muslims on here who dispute the death sentence for apostasy would concentrate their efforts on persuading Islamic scholars who actually have some influence, not that they have much chance of succeeding. The evidence from the Hadith is much too strong to be obfuscated away by wishful thinking.

Thankyou,you see everyone the evidence from the Ahadith is too strong,now what can be done about it if anything?

 

[keithnurse]

Response: I never claimed that a muslim leaving islam is a threat to me so your statement is untrue. But a person who leaves islam and tries to kill me and I kill him in sel-defense is the same as someone threatening my life.

What about a Muslim who leaves Islam and does NOT try to kill you? What if he leaves Islam and doesn't even know you and therefore is not trying to kill you?

 

[EiNsTeiN]

Wow, too many posts!

I won't have time to go through'em all.

Okay so then by your logic, the French state, the Turkish state, the Russian state, and any other secular state has the right to kill/jail people who undermine the identity of "secularism".

So isn't it somewhat hypocritical of you to complain that the hijab is not allowed in public schools in Turkey or France? Why is it wrong to do that, when they are just trying to preserve the identity of their state?

There is a difference here Mr.S.
Hijab is a religious act. In an Islamic state, everyone can practice his/her religion rituals no matter what his/her beliefs were. We are not talking about the freedom of performing your religious rituals, it's about your freedom of conveying your beliefs (that threaten the state's systems).

Again, everyone has the right to leave Islam or pursue it. But your freedom is limited when you convert to Islam and then decide to leave it.

BTW, I believe it's wise. Embracing Islam is huge, you can't just convert to Islam, and change it the second day (and that is the thing punished through death penalty)

 

[Fatihah]

What about a Muslim who leaves Islam and does NOT try to kill you? What if he leaves Islam and doesn't even know you and therefore is not trying to kill you?

Response: The ruling on apostasy is death. That ruling is made by the head of state or the ruler like in any country. I can not take the laws in my own hand.

So let us hypothetically say that I am the head of a muslim country and I have come to learn that someone has in fact became an apostate. This person would be gathered by the officers of the state and will be summoned to be put to death. Why? Because one of the strategies of the opposition to muslims is to pretend to be a muslim, thereby abling them to get close to the muslims and know how they operate which would make it easier for them to attack the muslims. Then they would denounce the religion and return to their allies and attack the muslims. Such a tactic needs to be put to an end which is why the death penalty is prescribed. A punishment for apostasy is also persecution which never seems to be addresed when dealing with apostasy.

However, no person is killed if they wish for peace. But if they do in fact wish for peace, an arrangement must be made within a contract between the muslims. This arrangement will assure both the muslims and the apostate that they will be able to live in peace with each other without fear of death or harm to either side.

 

[.lava]

Response: Then you should have no difficulty in the death penalty for apostates. The ruling for apostasy is the same.

it is not people who give other people free will. it is given by Allah. noone has right to kill someone else for using a tool which is directly given by Allah. that's not what Allah commands. those hadiths are made up by ordinary people. how do i know? i know because i know what's written in Qur'an.

here i quote my earlier post;

60:8 Allah does not forbid you respecting those who have not made war against you on account of (your) religion, and have not driven you forth from your homes, that you show them kindness and deal with them justly; surely Allah loves the doers of justice.

60:9 Allah only forbids you respecting those who made war upon you on account of (your) religion, and drove you forth from your homes and backed up (others) in your expulsion, that you make friends with them, and whoever makes friends with them, these are the unjust.

according to these verses, you can not be friends with anyone who's attacking Islam and God does not command Muslims to kill them but God clearly commands not to make friends with them.

.

 

[keithnurse]

I am soooooo happy that I am NOT a Muslim.

 

[Breathe]

Response: Of course not. It can only answer "the" question if it was said to answer "the" question. The statement is not an answer to "the" question, (whatever "the" question is) so your statement has no relevance.

Um. Not quite.
You changed the topic. You used something not relevant to the topic at hand.

This thread is about apostates of Islam. Not people pretending to be apostates to attack Islam, or about attacking Islam at all.

Therefore, your post is wrong, not mine.

 

[.lava]

I am soooooo happy that I am NOT a Muslim.

this time, i would like to ask you why? is it make you happier to mention this again and again?

.

 

[Fatihah]

Um. Not quite.
You changed the topic. You used something not relevant to the topic at hand.

This thread is about apostates of Islam. Not people pretending to be apostates to attack Islam, or about attacking Islam at all.

Therefore, your post is wrong, not mine.

Response: On the contrary, your post is wrong because no where in this entire forum have I talked about people "pretending to be apostates to attack islam" nor can you quote any post of mine saying so.

 

[Breathe]

Response: On the contrary, your post is wrong because no where in this entire forum have I talked about people "pretending to be apostates to attack islam" nor can you quote any post of mine saying so.

Um.

Response: Going to war by pretending to be a member of the opposing religion then leaving=/= trying to take someone's life away OR making life difficult for them.

Wrong.
Lying is a sin, you know.

 

[Fatihah]

it is not people who give other people free will. it is given by Allah. noone has right to kill someone else for using a tool which is directly given by Allah. that's not what Allah commands. those hadiths are made up by ordinary people. how do i know? i know because i know what's written in Qur'an.

here i quote my earlier post;

60:8 Allah does not forbid you respecting those who have not made war against you on account of (your) religion, and have not driven you forth from your homes, that you show them kindness and deal with them justly; surely Allah loves the doers of justice.

60:9 Allah only forbids you respecting those who made war upon you on account of (your) religion, and drove you forth from your homes and backed up (others) in your expulsion, that you make friends with them, and whoever makes friends with them, these are the unjust.

according to these verses, you can not be friends with anyone who's attacking Islam and God does not command Muslims to kill them but God clearly commands not to make friends with them.

.

Response: That is not all of the qur'an and not all the qur'an says. The qur'an also says in ch.4:59 to obey Allah "and" obey the Messenger and in ch.33:21 we are told that Muhammad is the best model for makind. These to verses clearly show that we are to follow the sunnah of the prophet which can only be found in the authentic hadiths and in those hadiths the prophet clearly said to kill those who become apostates. But as explained in post 904 that we are to refrain from this if they wish for peace. This is the way of the prophet.

 

[Alla Prima]

Response: The ruling on apostasy is death. That ruling is made by the head of state or the ruler like in any country. I can not take the laws in my own hand.

Stop the presses ladies and gentlemen Fatihah and I agree on something.

 

[ProudMuslim]

The issue regarding apostasy is very sensitive one and you (non-Muslims) will not hear a concensus among Mulims regarding this topic. As you can read from the posts Muslims either support the death penalty regardless, support the death penalty if the apostate was a revert, or totally reject the idea of killing the apostate whether a new revert or born as a Muslim. Of course all those opinions assuming the apostate has not chosen to become an enemy.

Even the last part is not agreed upon. What does make an apostate an enemy? The fact that he/she spoke their mind about Islam? Or if the apostate try to propagate his/her new faith to the Muslims? Or when the apostate declare Islam as his/her enemy and join the forces to eliminate Islam through tangible means.

The problem is its subjective which is fine until it involve the life of a human being. We can have different opinions on how to pray (hands folded, hands straight down) or how is it best to be dressed and so forth but with killing, one would hope the entire scholars to reach a convincing and irrefutable evidence to their stance. Right now each group think they have the right explanations that support their claim.

Anyway i totally agree with .lava here.

 

[Alla Prima]

I am soooooo happy that I am NOT a Muslim.

Yeah me too. Getting out would be a dangerous endeavor. Islam takes itself way too seriously for anyone's good imo. Better to sit and eat berries in a romote cabin somewhere.

 

[ProudMuslim]

Response: That is not all of the qur'an and not all the qur'an says. The qur'an also says in ch.4:59 to obey Allah "and" obey the Messenger and in ch.33:21 we are told that Muhammad is the best model for makind.

But don't we already are obeying the Prophet (PBUH) in believing the Qur'an? Wasn't the Prophet (PBUH) the messenger who delivered the Qur'an. It is not as if we recieve the Qur'an directly, we DO believe him (PBUH) when we took Qur'an word for word and accepted it is the truth from Allah. Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) was the one who conveyed to us the Qur'anic verses.

These to verses clearly show that we are to follow the sunnah of the prophet which can only be found in the authentic hadiths and in those hadiths the prophet clearly said to kill those who become apostates. But as explained in post 904 that we are to refrain from this if they wish for peace. This is the way of the prophet.

So tell me please why did the Qur'an left out a strict commandment as "kill the apostate" if we are to believe that the attributed hadith is authentic and inspired by Allah (SWT)? Why did Allah (SWT) mentioned apostasy over and over in the Qur'an but mention nothing of worldly punishment? As you know the Qur'an go in great details regarding small specific things like inheritance, when, how, who; the types of divorce; the halal and haram food and so forth. So holy Qur'an is detailed and complete, so rules that are commanded in some attributed hadiths were not mentioned in the Qur'an if we are to take them and apply them?

I have asked this question all the time to some fellow Muslims who believe that Hadiths can add new rules but i never got an answer so i hope you will help me with that?

There is no question that the Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) set a great role model to follow and that he was a mercy for mankind, i question the authenticity of such hadiths not the authenticy of prophet Muhammed (PBUH) sayings and orders.

 

[Fatihah]

Stop the presses ladies and gentlemen Fatihah and I agree on something.

Response: We agree? I'm speechless.

 

[Alla Prima]

The issue regarding apostasy is very sensitive one and you (non-Muslims) will not hear a concensus among Mulims regarding this topic. As you can read from the posts Muslims either support the death penalty regardless, support the death penalty if the apostate was a revert, or totally reject the idea of killing the apostate whether a new revert or born as a Muslim. Of course all those opinions assuming the apostate has not chosen to become an enemy.

Even the last part is not agreed upon. What does make an apostate an enemy? The fact that he/she spoke their mind about Islam? Or if the apostate try to propagate his/her new faith to the Muslims? Or when the apostate declare Islam as his/her enemy and join the forces to eliminate Islam through tangible means.

The problem is its subjective which is fine until it involve the life of a human being. We can have different opinions on how to pray (hands folded, hands straight down) or how is it best to be dressed and so forth but with killing, one would hope the entire scholars to reach a convincing and irrefutable evidence to their stance. Right now each group think they have the right explanations that support their claim.

Anyway i totally agree with .lava here.

Well this only stands to support the justifiable fears of Apostates. Whether or not Islam demands death for apostates becomes almost irrelevant. Apostates ARE murdered because SOME Muslims support it and some Muslims support it because the teachings of Islam support it according to these some Muslims.

So Muslims can deny death for apostasy all they want but these denials are ultimately irrelevant.

 

[Alla Prima]

Response: We agree? I'm speechless.

This may be the only thing we agree one but lets keep trying.

 

[Fatihah]

But don't we already are obeying the Prophet (PBUH) in believing the Qur'an? Wasn't the Prophet (PBUH) the messenger who delivered the Qur'an. It is not as if we recieve the Qur'an directly, we DO believe him (PBUH) when we took Qur'an word for word and accepted it is the truth from Allah. Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) was the one who conveyed to us the Qur'anic verses.



So tell me please why did the Qur'an left out a strict commandment as "kill the apostate" if we are to believe that the attributed hadith is authentic and inspired by Allah (SWT)? Why did Allah (SWT) mentioned apostasy over and over in the Qur'an but mention nothing of worldly punishment? As you know the Qur'an go in great details regarding small specific things like inheritance, when, how, who; the types of divorce; the halal and haram food and so forth. So holy Qur'an is detailed and complete, so rules that are commanded in some attributed hadiths were not mentioned in the Qur'an if we are to take them and apply them?

Response: I'll present to you my same response to brother eselem in another thread concerning apostasy:

Apostasy is mentioned in several places of the qur'an (2:217, 3:86-90, 4:137, 9:66, 9:74, 16:106-109, 4:88-91 and 47:24-27) but in all of those places, the death penalty is not the prescribed punishment. In fact, the death penalty is not prescribed as a punishment for any crime except in ch.5:33 and 45 in which the reason is due to killing someone else or in self defense or causing mischief and disorder in the land or waging war against islam.

But here is the important part. In verse 34 of the same chapter we read "Except those who repent before you have them in your power. So know that Allah is Most Forgiving, Merciful".

Also in ch.2:178 the death penalty is also mentioned but is followed by the option of providing blood-money as a punishment for the victims family if they choose so instead of death.

In summary, where ever the death sentence is mentioned in the qur'an, it is an option to certain crimes, not mandatory. And if the victim repents and wants peace, we as muslims must grant it to them.

Now the issue of apostasy. In ch. 4:88-91, we are told that the muslims were in a disagreement as to how to deal with the hypocrites. You see, there is a difference between a hypocrite and an apostate. A hypocrite is one who declares themself as a muslim and/or goes about preaching to others to follow the religion of islam but all the while they them self do not practice what they preach . An apostate on the other hand is one who openly declares themself as a muslim or take the shahada but later they openly reject the religion. The solution was for the hypocrites to migrate with Muhammad as a test to their faith;(verse 89) for if they are truly muslims they should willingly accept. If they turn away, then seize them and kill them because their turning away would confirm their apostasy.

But now let's read the following verse. (Verse 90)
"Except those who are connected with a people between whom and you there is a pact, or those who come to you, while their hearts shrink from fighting you or fighting their own people. And if Allah had pleased, He could have given them power against you, then they would have surely fought you. So, if they keep aloof from you and fight you not, and make you an offer of peace, then Allah has allowed you no way against them".

This verse confirms that death is not a mandatory punishment for apostacy for if it was then Allah would not say to grant them peace if they wished to do so.

So in conclusion, the death sentence is the punishment for apostacy but we must keep in mind that if the apostates ask for peace and does not cause any war, we as muslims must grant it. I hope this helps.

 

[ProudMuslim]

But don't we already are obeying the Prophet (PBUH) in believing the Qur'an? Wasn't the Prophet (PBUH) the messenger who delivered the Qur'an. It is not as if we recieve the Qur'an directly, we DO believe him (PBUH) when we took Qur'an word for word and accepted it is the truth from Allah. Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) was the one who conveyed to us the Qur'anic verses.



So tell me please why did the Qur'an left out a strict commandment as "kill the apostate" if we are to believe that the attributed hadith is authentic and inspired by Allah (SWT)? Why did Allah (SWT) mentioned apostasy over and over in the Qur'an but mention nothing of worldly punishment? As you know the Qur'an go in great details regarding small specific things like inheritance, when, how, who; the types of divorce; the halal and haram food and so forth. So holy Qur'an is detailed and complete, so rules that are commanded in some attributed hadiths were not mentioned in the Qur'an if we are to take them and apply them?

Response: I'll present to you my same response to brother eselem in another thread concerning apostasy:

Apostasy is mentioned in several places of the qur'an (2:217, 3:86-90, 4:137, 9:66, 9:74, 16:106-109, 4:88-91 and 47:24-27) but in all of those places, the death penalty is not the prescribed punishment. In fact, the death penalty is not prescribed as a punishment for any crime except in ch.5:33 and 45 in which the reason is due to killing someone else or in self defense or causing mischief and disorder in the land or waging war against islam.

But here is the important part. In verse 34 of the same chapter we read "Except those who repent before you have them in your power. So know that Allah is Most Forgiving, Merciful".

Also in ch.2:178 the death penalty is also mentioned but is followed by the option of providing blood-money as a punishment for the victims family if they choose so instead of death.

In summary, where ever the death sentence is mentioned in the qur'an, it is an option to certain crimes, not mandatory. And if the victim repents and wants peace, we as muslims must grant it to them.

Now the issue of apostasy. In ch. 4:88-91, we are told that the muslims were in a disagreement as to how to deal with the hypocrites. You see, there is a difference between a hypocrite and an apostate. A hypocrite is one who declares themself as a muslim and/or goes about preaching to others to follow the religion of islam but all the while they them self do not practice what they preach . An apostate on the other hand is one who openly declares themself as a muslim or take the shahada but later they openly reject the religion. The solution was for the hypocrites to migrate with Muhammad as a test to their faith;(verse 89) for if they are truly muslims they should willingly accept. If they turn away, then seize them and kill them because their turning away would confirm their apostasy.

But now let's read the following verse. (Verse 90)
"Except those who are connected with a people between whom and you there is a pact, or those who come to you, while their hearts shrink from fighting you or fighting their own people. And if Allah had pleased, He could have given them power against you, then they would have surely fought you. So, if they keep aloof from you and fight you not, and make you an offer of peace, then Allah has allowed you no way against them".

This verse confirms that death is not a mandatory punishment for apostacy for if it was then Allah would not say to grant them peace if they wished to do so.

So in conclusion, the death sentence is the punishment for apostacy but we must keep in mind that if the apostates ask for peace and does not cause any war, we as muslims must grant it. I hope this helps.

The bolded part was indicated to hypocrites not to apostates. Those who claim they were Muslims but when the Prophet (PBUH) asked them to emigrate they refused and showed their true colors. Like you have said, the Prophet (PBUH) wanted to know who is a true follower and who is a hypocrite. It does not deal with apostasy.

Brother Fatiha, i have asked a specific question in regards to your reply to sister .lava. What you have just posted is great and informative but it is not relevant to my question.