Apostates of Islam

[Mr Spinkles]

And I don't think maro, eselam, or even her wonderfulness .lava answered my question....

I asked a question (a few times) where I tried to describe the reverse situation, where "apostates" who leave atheism and try to convert people away from atheism, or otherwise fight or oppose the concept of atheism, can be killed if they are convicted by the proper atheist authorities.

I asked my Muslim friends if this would be a reasonable, just, humane practice, if they would feel free to express themselves, or not. I don't think anyone answered my question.

That is the other injustice of the issue of punishment for apostates of Islam (or outspoken ones): it does not treat people equally. There is no punishment for people who are apostates of Christianity, Judaism, atheism, Hinduism, etc. and surely Muslims would be against this if there was one. The Islamic stance is basically self-serving and hypocritical, i.m.o. It's not about concern for all people, and freedom and equality for all people, it's about concern for their ideology only.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Am I making war on Islam right now, by criticizing it on this forum?

 

[gnostic]

I just don't see how a single person leaving Islam can make war upon Islam. Any attack would be suicidal.

But then again, recalling the Danish cartoons and writing books seem to easily offend so many Muslims. But I wouldn't call this war, more like potential mob lynching or assassination attempts for mere words or images.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

By the way .lava, I ran out of frubals but I say BRAVO!!!! to you on your comment about how we are talking about killing.

I agree, it is very disturbing when people talk about killing in such a casual fashion, as you said as though we are talking about "breaking eggs".

I notice this happens also when many people in the West talk about killing in Palestine, Iraq or Afghanistan. I am afraid I may be guilty of this myself. It's a dangerous mindset, to not be extremely, extremely cautious when speaking about the taking of human life. Because none of us has the power to give it back once it is taken.

 

[Gharib]

None of this justifies the final conclusion that it is okay to murder people for expressing their beliefs. It is that conclusion that is at issue, this jump to "therefore, we have the right to murder them".

take a read at this, i do not know if it is a relevant answer to your question, but just read it:

We also say that the death penalty exists in the modern laws of man to protect the system from disorder in some situation and to protect society against certain crimes which may cause its disintegration, such as drugs etc. If execution can serve as a deterrent to protect man-made systems, then it is more appropriate that the true religion of Allaah, which Falsehood cannot come to it from before it or behind it [cf. Fussilat 41:42], and which is all goodness, happiness and tranquility in this world and in the Hereafter should punish those who commit acts of aggression against it and seek to extinguish its light and defame its image, and who fabricate lies against it to justify their apostasy and deviation.

us muslims consider our religion to be our life we are lost without it, so to you or to any other non muslim it may seem as just a belief, but it is not like that.
it is the most important thing in our life, just incase you didn't know that.

 

[Gharib]

odion

here are the verses in the quran that say Muhammed (saws) is protected by Allah (swt) from lying:

It is impossible for the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) to tell lies about Allaah. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And if he (Muhammad) had forged a false saying concerning Us (Allaah),
We surely would have seized him by his right hand (or with power and might),
And then We certainly would have cut off his life artery (aorta),
And none of you could have withheld Us from (punishing) him”
[al-Haaqqah :44-47]​

 

[Breathe]

odion

here are the verses in the quran that say Muhammed (saws) is protected by Allah (swt) from lying:

It is impossible for the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) to tell lies about Allaah. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And if he (Muhammad) had forged a false saying concerning Us (Allaah),
We surely would have seized him by his right hand (or with power and might),
And then We certainly would have cut off his life artery (aorta),
And none of you could have withheld Us from (punishing) him”
[al-Haaqqah :44-47]​

That is if Muhammad was lying about Allah.
Not if Muhammad was lying about laws, and nor does it say that ahadith supposedly from Muhammad will be protected from change like the Qur'an.

 

[gnostic]

us muslims consider our religion to be our life we are lost without it, so to you or to any other non muslim it may seem as just a belief, but it is not like that.

That's good and well.

But it should be a matter of choice, if a person chooses to leave his or her faith, either seeking other religion or no religion at all.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

us muslims consider our religion to be our life we are lost without it, so to you or to any other non muslim it may seem as just a belief, but it is not like that.
it is the most important thing in our life, just incase you didn't know that.

[emphasis added]

I understand this perfectly. Again, the conclusion is not justified. If you kill someone because they left Islam, and because they convinced others to join them, you are not defending your life, and your religion, you are attacking other peoples' lives and religion with murder.

And would you please kindly answer my question about "atheist apostacy"?

The Stalinists and Maoists (communist atheists) did arrest people who embraced religion, and sent them to "re-education camps". There were jail sentences for people who tried to actively preach and convert people to any religion in Russia (except I think the Orthodox Christian Church) and in China, because religion was seen as corrupting to their community of atheist communists, and a security threat to their secular atheistic state.

Now, on what grounds do you oppose this? You have no right to oppose it, unless you are a total hypocrite. Because if you were in power, you would do the same thing.

 

[Gharib]

That is if Muhammad was lying about Allah.
Not if Muhammad was lying about laws, and nor does it say that ahadith supposedly from Muhammad will be protected from change like the Qur'an.

oh yes you are right, but still he has not lied about or made up any laws of his own mind.

Allah (swt) says that we must obey Muhammed (saws), just as brother Fatihah has posted that verse in a few pages back, i will try to find the post and i will post the verse.

 

[Gharib]

That's good and well.

thank you.

But it should be a matter of choice, if a person chooses to leave his or her faith, either seeking other religion or no religion at all.

but islam is not a choice thing, you do not have a 30 day trial perid, and if not stisfied you can leave it.

the punishment on apostacy would be such in order to have strong believers in islam, if it was as simple as "try before you buy" then any person would become a muslim. and not everyone can become a muslim.

but the thing is, the punishment on apostacy is telling them that you need to study islam first then declare yourself a muslim, you must have guts and must be prepared to die if you change your mind after wards.

islam must be taken seriously, it is not a joke or just so one can belong to a group. it is life, and when someone talks falsewhood about my life and insults me, then naturally i have to deffend my self at any cost.

 

[Gharib]

I understand this perfectly.

what about the other part of my post? that was the main thing that i wanted you to focus on.

Again, the conclusion is not justified. If you kill someone because they left Islam, and because they convinced others to join them, you are not defending your life, and your religion, you are attacking other peoples' lives and religion with murder.

but if i leave him then he would be attacking my life and that of all the other muslims. so is it better to take one life in order to protect a lot more lives or would you take many lives to protect one, when clearly those many have not done anything?

And would you please kindly answer my question about "atheist apostacy"?

yeah sure.

The Stalinists and Maoists (communist atheists) did arrest people who embraced religion, and sent them to "re-education camps". There were jail sentences for people who tried to actively preach and convert people to any religion in Russia (except I think the Orthodox Christian Church) and in China, because religion was seen as corrupting to their community of atheist communists, and a security threat to their secular atheistic state.

Now, on what grounds do you oppose this?

first of all explain to me:

were the jail sentences for ex-atheists who called upon other atheists or non atheists who called upon atheists?

but here is a rough answer any way

if the preaching was done by ex-atheists then i could not oppose that governments law to arrest the people who preach.

but if the people were non atheists to start with, then i would oppose the law to have them arrested. everyone believes that their religion is the right one, so naturally everyone is allowed to preach to others.

You have no right to oppose it, unless you are a total hypocrite.

why can i not oppose it if i wanted to?

from an islamic perspective i can, because i believe islam is the only true religion of god, and some men have not been given power over other men to make what sort of laws they want, and then change them again when someone else wants to, from his own mind.

everything belongs to god, even our lives and our souls, so only god gets to decide when a life is to be taken, not men.

Because if you were in power, you would do the same thing.

yes because islam is the true religion of god and it has no man made laws that change over time. (an islamic perspective.)

 

[ProudMuslim]

Do you think that Wafaa Sultan should be killed for what she says?

No of course not, as long as she only use words for her hostility. Allah (SWT) said He does not love transgressors. Like i have said, for her likes the best retaliation is for Muslims to behave well and brighten the image of Islam and prove to the world why Islam is a great religion. No one likes its enemy to be flourishing, growing strong and widening its followers base.

But i would have definitely put her in jail for publicly inciting hatred and promoting the destruction of an entire religion. It is absolutely disgusting and embarrassing that some organizations located in countries who promote human rights chose to honor her for her hate speeches!! Imagine if Ahmedinajad got honored for his hate speech? The entire world will go up and down.

 

[ProudMuslim]

What do you mean by "tangible means"?

Carrying guns?

Or do making war on Islam through newsletters or posted on Internet, criticising Islam?

Not carrying guns, but actually using guns and other weapons and/or assisting in physical attack.

Other than that words don't hurt anyone, she can say and we can say.

 

[ProudMuslim]

ProudMuslim,

There is nothing difficult for me in understanding Fatiha's argument, or maro's or eselam's arguments. I understand the argument very well; it is precisely because I understand it that I reject it as not reasonable or humane.

I can accept almost everything Fatiha said. I can accept that Muslims have been mistreated, dominated, colonialized by Western powers. I can accept that Muhammad and his followers were persecuted. I can accept that apostates who openly express themselves are likely to draw some people away from Islam.

None of this justifies the final conclusion that it is okay to murder people for expressing their beliefs. It is that conclusion that is at issue, this jump to "therefore, we have the right to murder them".

And i agree with you, i think if you have strong faith in your religion nothing will change your mind. It is all about conviction, finding comfort and answers to your questions. I am not sure if Fatiha is saying that one should be killed if he propagate his new religion, personally i think propagating religion is not equal to an attack or violence so absolutely no for death penalty.

However,

I, if i was the ruler of a country, will ban one thing though: do not approach children and propagate your thoughts whatever they are. I have Christian friends and sometimes we have heated debate about our differences but when it comes to children we respect our boundaries and everyone act as if they are the follower of the other's faith just to prevent children from getting confused and caused unnecessary sensitivity.A

Or it is propaganda which serves to justify oppression and restriction of free speech.

Once again you might be true here. But it always depends on the situation. I will always go to Wafaa Sultan as an example, who mission is to defame Islam and Muslims and her justification of being hostile is rubbish. Many people undergo horrific situations in their life and don't choose to become Satans themselves. You have every right to be angry and bitter but with the right individuals who caused the misery upon you. Her hate towards Islam is unbecoming and unfathomable.

Fair enough, I absolutely agree, two wrongs don't make a right. But in fairness, tell that to Fatiha. He didn't apply this logic when he said "Well this is probably due to the cruelty that muslims themselves have to face" and spoke of the recent independence of many countries from colonial rule. It's a fair point, but it should be followed in the end by: "But, Muslims (like everyone) have to take responsibility for their own actions, because two wrongs don't make a right". Exactly as you said here.

And i totally agree with you again. I think its time for some Muslims to move on from post-colonial bitterness, the entire world is moving on and there is no point dwelling in the past and cry over what you have lost because we are losing much more by doing wasting your lives and doing nothing. We missed industrial revolution, hopefully we will not miss the information revolution. We owe this for our next generation.

 

[Alla Prima]

Am I making war on Islam right now, by criticizing it on this forum?

I'd like to see and answer to this one too.

 

[Alla Prima]

Take Wafaa Sultan who declared Islam is her enemy and that she will fight Islam. Not "radical" Islam (as some try to label it) but Islam as a whole and how it need to be crushed.

I still haven't seen this quote from Sultan. If you have it please post it. I want to see the context.

 

[AbuKhalid]

"I have decided to fight Islam; please pay attention to my statement; to fight Islam, not the political Islam, not the militant Islam, not the radical Islam, not the Wahhabi Islam, but Islam itself...Islam has never been misunderstood, Islam is the problem....(Muslims) have to realize that they have only two choices: to change or to be crushed."
Wafa Sultan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Breathe]

oh yes you are right, but still he has not lied about or made up any laws of his own mind.

Allah (swt) says that we must obey Muhammed (saws), just as brother Fatihah has posted that verse in a few pages back, i will try to find the post and i will post the verse.

But that doesn't mean someone has not fabricated these laws and claimed Muhammad said them. They could just as easily have been taken out of context from oral transmission.

 

[AbuKhalid]

But that doesn't mean someone has not fabricated these laws and claimed Muhammad said them. They could just as easily have been taken out of context from oral transmission.

But the Quran and Sunnah came through so many sources that for this to happen would mean there was a conspiracy by the entire society to fabricate what the Prophet (SAW) said, despite them being Muslims and knowing the consequences for such fabrication.