Apostates of Islam

[Alla Prima]

"I have decided to fight Islam; please pay attention to my statement; to fight Islam, not the political Islam, not the militant Islam, not the radical Islam, not the Wahhabi Islam, but Islam itself...Islam has never been misunderstood, Islam is the problem....(Muslims) have to realize that they have only two choices: to change or to be crushed."
Wafa Sultan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There are no guns mentioned here. Ideologies can be crushed with words. Muslims here are always using the term 'fight' without the connotation of violence attached to it. Show me where she advocates violence?

 

[Breathe]

But the Quran and Sunnah came through so many sources that for this to happen would mean there was a conspiracy by the entire society to fabricate what the Prophet (SAW) said, despite them being Muslims and knowing the consequences for such fabrication.

Not so. The Qur'an came from according to Islam the angel Gabriel, ultimately from God - whether or not this is true is not the debate for this though.

But the Sunnah are a different matter entirely. They are a collection of sayings attributed to Muhammad. Just because people follow the chain of transmission means nothing; someone could easily have said they heard it from X who heard it from Muhammad himself.

There was a person who fabricated many ahadith before having a change of heart who was killed in early Islamic history.

What if someone did not have a change of heart before they died?

They say that any hadith against the Qur'an is a fabrication. The Qur'an says there is no compulsion in religion. The hadith say to kill someone who leaves Islam.

Does one twist the Qur'an to fit into your own belief, like an idolater, or ignore the words of Allah for the words of men? There is for a Muslim, no doubt over the Qur'an's authorship, but that is not so for ahadith.

That's why I believed that the death penalty for apostasy is not condoned within early Islamic teaching, apart from what has been twisted by men.

 

[AbuKhalid]

Not so. The Qur'an came from according to Islam the angel Gabriel, ultimately from God - whether or not this is true is not the debate for this though.

But the Sunnah are a different matter entirely. They are a collection of sayings attributed to Muhammad. Just because people follow the chain of transmission means nothing; someone could easily have said they heard it from X who heard it from Muhammad himself.

There was a person who fabricated many ahadith before having a change of heart who was killed in early Islamic history.

What if someone did not have a change of heart before they died?

They say that any hadith against the Qur'an is a fabrication. The Qur'an says there is no compulsion in religion. The hadith say to kill someone who leaves Islam.

Do you twist the Qur'an to fit into your own belief, like an idolater, or do you ignore the words of Allah for the words of men? There is for a Muslim, no doubt over the Qur'an's authorship, but that is not so for ahadith.

There are fake Ahadith but these are known and any hadith which contradicts the Quran is considered fake to begin with. They didn't just record anything that anyone said in relation to the Prophet. The compiling and grading of Ahadith is a science in itself (Usool al Hadith) which is rigerous and quite complicated.

 

[AbuKhalid]

There are no guns mentioned here. Ideologies can be crushed with words. Muslims here are always using the term 'fight' without the connotation of violence attached to it. Show me where she advocates violence?

I didn't say she did. I was just providing the quote I thought he was talking about. In fact just now was the first time I saw it.

 

[Alla Prima]

I advocate violence against Muslim terrorism and I would urge all Muslims to leave Islam because I believe Islam is unhealthy for them. I believe Islam is unhealthy for all of us - doing the human family no good and much harm. I would see Islam eliminated from the human family. That's my opinion. However I would not use violence to accomplish this or harm Muslims to this end. Only words. People are free to choose their religious paths even if they are destructive to themselves. I believe this is what Sultan means as well.

 

[Alla Prima]

I didn't say she did. I was just providing the quote I thought he was talking about. In fact just now was the first time I saw it.

I see. Thank you for posting it.

 

[Breathe]

There are fake Ahadith but these are known and any hadith which contradicts the Quran is considered fake to begin with. They didn't just record anything that anyone said in relation to the Prophet. The compiling and grading of Ahadith is a science in itself (Usool al Hadith) which is rigerous and quite complicated.

But in light of new evidence ahadith can move from sahih (authentic) to mawdo (fabricated), correct?

Considering it's complicated to judge whether or not certain hadith are fabrications or not, mistakes can be made. Only God is perfect, right? And God knows best. That's why you should trust in the Qur'an and not words of men that go against it.

 

[ProudMuslim]

There are no guns mentioned here. Ideologies can be crushed with words. Muslims here are always using the term 'fight' without the connotation of violence attached to it. Show me where she advocates violence?

Yes and when Ahmedinajad said "Israel need to be wiped off the map" he didn't mention "guns, violence or war", right? Maybe he meant through words, criticisms and scandals!

Oh please.

 

[ProudMuslim]

There are fake Ahadith but these are known and any hadith which contradicts the Quran is considered fake to begin with. They didn't just record anything that anyone said in relation to the Prophet. The compiling and grading of Ahadith is a science in itself (Usool al Hadith) which is rigerous and quite complicated.

I disagree with you here.

The punishment of adultery in the Qur'an is 100 lashes, Allah (SWT) did not make any breakdown on the type of adultery or adultrer, but according to an attributed hadith, the prophet Muhammed (PBUH) ordered the stonning to death for married adultrers! There is no worldy punishment for apostasy in the Holy Qur'an even though the subject is tackled number of times, yet again there are some attributed hadiths to Muhammed (PBUH) that call for the killing of apostate!

Yes those are considered 'sahih' and yes i know all about 'Usool al hadith', but it does not require a rocket scientist to figure that such hadiths are contradicting the Qur'an by adding new faridahs that were never mentioned in the Qur'an. Hadiths were meant to explain the ways our beloved Muhammed (PBUH) performed the faridahs (commandments) and hads (punishments) ordered by Allah (SWT) in the Qur'an. So any hadith that contradicts the Qur'an whether by adding, deducting or violate any Qur'anic prohibition or lawful act should not be authenticated. After all the Prophet (PBUH) himself ordered his companions not to mix the message of Qur'an with any other sayings, because one if the direct words of Allah (SWT) and the other is his (PBUH) explanations of how to live your life as a Muslim based on the Qur'an.

 

[Alla Prima]

Yes and when Ahmedinajad said "Israel need to be wiped off the map" he didn't mention "guns, violence or war", right? Maybe he meant through words, criticisms and scandals!

Oh please.

She hasn't actually used violence against Islam has she. Still only words.

 

[Alla Prima]

Yes and when Ahmedinajad said "Israel need to be wiped off the map" he didn't mention "guns, violence or war", right? Maybe he meant through words, criticisms and scandals!

Oh please.

And Ahmedinajad hasn't actually used violence against Israel has he? Otherwise it would be an attack worthy of a violent response but no violent response has happened. He's using words. So too with Dr. Sultan. Until she actually uses violence against Islam, Islam has no justification whatsoever for violence against her. All words.

 

[AbuKhalid]

I disagree with you here.

The punishment of adultery in the Qur'an is 100 lashes, Allah (SWT) did not make any breakdown on the type of adultery or adultrer, but according to an attributed hadith, the prophet Muhammed (PBUH) ordered the stonning to death for married adultrers! There is no worldy punishment for apostasy in the Holy Qur'an even though the subject is tackled number of times, yet again there are some attributed hadiths to Muhammed (PBUH) that call for the killing of apostate!

Yes those are considered 'sahih' and yes i know all about 'Usool al hadith', but it does not require a rocket scientist to figure that such hadiths are contradicting the Qur'an by adding new faridahs that were never mentioned in the Qur'an. Hadiths were meant to explain the ways our beloved Muhammed (PBUH) performed the faridahs (commandments) and hads (punishments) ordered by Allah (SWT) in the Qur'an. So any hadith that contradicts the Qur'an whether by adding, deducting or violate any Qur'anic prohibition or lawful act should not be authenticated. After all the Prophet (PBUH) himself ordered his companions not to mix the message of Qur'an with any other sayings, because one if the direct words of Allah (SWT) and the other is his (PBUH) explanations of how to live your life as a Muslim based on the Qur'an.

The hadith expands on the Quran and the Quran tells us to obey the Messenger. Do you reject hadith? The prayer that we take from hadith "adds" to what is in Quran as Quran only tells us to pray. Should we reject this as an addition?

Now there are reasons why the hadith on apostasy and adultary are graded Sahih which I don't have time to go into now but they don't contradict the Quran at all. Do you believe that the Sahaba and all Muslim scholars from the time of the Prophet until the present where mistaken? Do you think the Sahaba lied that the Prophet executed apostates?

 

[Fatihah]

Forgive my interjection, Fatihah, but doesn't the above explanation sound more than just a bit paranoid? Using this kind of thinking, shouldn't "western" countries be killing citizens who convert to Islam just in case they are plotting against their homeland?

Response: If the "western" countries has logical reasoning to do so, then yes. They have a right to protect their homeland. However, islam is not a threat. If it was, there would never have been any western country. If the west waged war on islam, they would lose. That's why they never have and all western countries are run by the principle of freedom of religion because they know the end result when you try to oppress islam.

 

[ProudMuslim]

The hadith expands on the Quran and the Quran tells us to obey the Messenger. Do you reject hadith? The prayer that we take from hadith "adds" to what is in Quran as Quran only tells us to pray. Should we reject this as an addition?

No that is not an addition because prayer is mentioned in the Qur'an, just like all the pillars of Islam. The hadiths explains how to perform prayers, it did not introduce it. The same with ablution 'waduu' and the number of prayers. The Prophet (PBUH) explained how to perform them.

That is exactly what i explained previously. That Qur'an has all the commandments and the Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) explained how to perform them.

Now there are reasons why the hadith on apostasy and adultary are graded Sahih which I don't have time to go into now but they don't contradict the Quran at all. Do you believe that the Sahaba and all Muslim scholars from the time of the Prophet until the present where mistaken? Do you think the Sahaba lied that the Prophet executed apostates?

You are missing the point, i never accused the Sahaba of lying,i am questioning the authenticity of those hadiths and rightfully so. I believe they were made up by enemies of Islam.

You and i were not present during the time of prophet Muhammed (PBUH) nor his companions so we can't talk about their actions as if we witness it. It is a matter of faith. Anything apart from the Qur'an is not infallible and open to further debate and questioning. I will never believe the Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) ordered the killing of any apostate for simply leaving Islam.

 

[Fatihah]

I can accept almost everything Fatiha said. I can accept that Muslims have been mistreated, dominated, colonialized by Western powers. I can accept that Muhammad and his followers were persecuted. I can accept that apostates who openly express themselves are likely to draw some people away from Islam.

None of this justifies the final conclusion that it is okay to murder people for expressing their beliefs. It is that conclusion that is at issue, this jump to "therefore, we have the right to murder them".

Or it is propaganda which serves to justify oppression and restriction of free speech.

Fair enough, I absolutely agree, two wrongs don't make a right. But in fairness, tell that to Fatiha. He didn't apply this logic when he said "Well this is probably due to the cruelty that muslims themselves have to face" and spoke of the recent independence of many countries from colonial rule. It's a fair point, but it should be followed in the end by: "But, Muslims (like everyone) have to take responsibility for their own actions, because two wrongs don't make a right". Exactly as you said here.

Response: You must not have read the whole post. I never said that a person should be killed because they change their belief. They should be killed if they in fact are found to be trying to kill you which is self-defense.

 

[England my lionheart]

Response: If the "western" countries has logical reasoning to do so, then yes. They have a right to protect their homeland. However, islam is not a threat. If it was, there would never have been any western country. If the west waged war on islam, they would lose. That's why they never have and all western countries are run by the principle of freedom of religion because they know the end result when you try to oppress islam.

Aw come on,be realistic

 

[Breathe]

Aw come on,be realistic

I know. It sounds kind of...aggressive, to me.

 

[England my lionheart]

I know. It sounds kind of...aggressive, to me.

:run:LOL run away

 

[Gharib]

:run:LOL run away

actually this way would have been better:

LOL run away :run:

 

[England my lionheart]

actually this way would have been better:

LOL run away :run: