Apostates of Islam

[.lava]

The hadith expands on the Quran and the Quran tells us to obey the Messenger. Do you reject hadith? The prayer that we take from hadith "adds" to what is in Quran as Quran only tells us to pray. Should we reject this as an addition?

Now there are reasons why the hadith on apostasy and adultary are graded Sahih which I don't have time to go into now but they don't contradict the Quran at all. Do you believe that the Sahaba and all Muslim scholars from the time of the Prophet until the present where mistaken? Do you think the Sahaba lied that the Prophet executed apostates?

these questions are unfair to ask;

do you reject hadith?
did Sahaba lie about Prophet?...etc.

you asked similar stuff to me before. we are Muslims, you know? this is not about Mohammad(PBUH) or Sahaba. this is about some others, non-Muslims or/and Munafiqs who added hadiths in hadith books. they were enemies of Islam and adding hadiths to hadith books was the best thing they could do because they could not add anything to Qur'an.

there are two options, AbuKhalid. those hadiths are either fake or not. if they are fake, which i have no doubt they are, then Muslims who follow them, practice them and preach them as truth of Islam are unfortunately would be serving enemies of Islam. when you find out they are fake, can you emotionally handle this fact, my brother? it is your personaly duty to read Qur'an. when there's a claim for a hadith to be fake, read the only source with no mistakes and find the answer. this is all i am saying as yor friend. that's what i do. i can not find any verse that support those hadiths, on the contrary, i find verses that say otherwise.

so, please stop asking Muslims here if they call Sahaba liars. that is an insult. it is also unfair because it sounds like a threat. it sounds like you are ready to announce some Muslims because they stand against inhumanity as enemies of Islam even though they are not.

.

 

[keithnurse]

this time, i would like to ask you why? is it make you happier to mention this again and again?

.

All you have to do is read the statements by Muslims on this whole thread to see why I am glad to not be a Muslim. I am hoping that maybe someday Islam will evolve and become a genuinely peaceful religion. Right now it certainly is not one. Fatihah says apostates should not be killed if they ask for peace. I say if a Muslim leaves Islam it is NOBODYS business but his own. It's not the business of an Islamic government or the local Imam or his neighbors, just his own, period.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Response: You must not have read the whole post. I never said that a person should be killed because they change their belief. They should be killed if they in fact are found to be trying to kill you which is self-defense.

Fatihah I did read your whole post. If you look at my post, you will see I didn't suggest that you support death for people who merely change their belief.
And no one (on this thread anyway) is saying you can't use violence to defend yourself from violence. That's a moot point. We can set that aside.
The issue I am dealing with is about apostates who are outspoken about their beliefs (maybe they might persuade some people to leave Islam).
This has nothing to do with someone trying to kill you. Obviously, if someone is threatening to kill anyone, they should be arrested. That is not the scenario I am discussing.

Now, you have said several times the punishment for apostacy is death, "unless the apostate wishes for peace".
It sounds like you are saying that it is assumed apostates are psychopathic murderers, unless they make some effort, or provide some proof, that they are not.
If they are outspoken about their beliefs, and perhaps persuade people through nonviolent words to leave Islam, is the punishment death, in your view? Even when there is no evidence they are threatening anyone with violence?

Your view is obviously more humane than killing people outright, but even your view that apostates must "wish for peace", in some way that ordinary citizens are not required to do, is still prejudiced and paranoid, i.m.o.

Imagine if the law in the US was that any Christian who becomes an apostates (say he converts to Islam) will be put to death....unless he wishes for peace. Clearly this would be a tool for oppression and intimidation, because you assume people are violent, then threaten them with death, then make them promise they aren't a threat. But you don't do that to ALL people....you don't do it to Muslim apostates.....only Christian apostates. Isn't it obvious that this would serve as an excuse to intimidate, and treat unequally, and humiliate peaceful Muslim political opponents to the state, peaceful Muslim critics and authors and intellectuals, peaceful Muslims in the minority religion?

This is inequality, prejudice, bigotry, paranoia....this is the basis of fascism. The "self-defense" thing can only serve as an excuse for repressing, intimidating, and humiliating peaceful opponents to the State ideology (in this case an Islamic State ideology, but it could just as well be fascism, communism, etc.) As soon as someone expresses an opinion you don't like (apostacy) you assume they are violent maniacs unless they "wish for peace". Of course, this means the authorities pay special attention to investigating apostates. Obviously, if you investigate a certain group of people more, you will convict them of more crimes. Meanwhile, ordinary citizens who may have committed just as many minor offenses, are not investigated as thoroughly and may not get convicted of these minor crimes. These are standard, subtle tactics of discrimination and intimidation, fueled by the excuse of "they're trying to kill us!!"

 

[England my lionheart]

Fatihah I did read your whole post. If you look at my post, you will see I didn't suggest that you support death for people who merely change their belief.
And no one (on this thread anyway) is saying you can't use violence to defend yourself from violence. That's a moot point. We can set that aside.
The issue I am dealing with is about apostates who are outspoken about their beliefs (maybe they might persuade some people to leave Islam).
This has nothing to do with someone trying to kill you. Obviously, if someone is threatening to kill anyone, they should be arrested. That is not the scenario I am discussing.

Now, you have said several times the punishment for apostacy is death, "unless the apostate wishes for peace".
It sounds like you are saying that it is assumed apostates are psychopathic murderers, unless they make some effort, or provide some proof, that they are not.
If they are outspoken about their beliefs, and perhaps persuade people through nonviolent words to leave Islam, is the punishment death, in your view? Even when there is no evidence they are threatening anyone with violence?

Your view is obviously more humane than killing people outright, but even your view that apostates must "wish for peace", in some way that ordinary citizens are not required to do, is still prejudiced and paranoid, i.m.o.

Imagine if the law in the US was that any Christian who becomes an apostates (say he converts to Islam) will be put to death....unless he wishes for peace. Clearly this would be a tool for oppression and intimidation, because you assume people are violent, then threaten them with death, then make them promise they aren't a threat. But you don't do that to ALL people....you don't do it to Muslim apostates.....only Christian apostates. Isn't it obvious that this would serve as an excuse to intimidate, and treat unequally, and humiliate peaceful Muslim political opponents to the state, peaceful Muslim critics and authors and intellectuals, peaceful Muslims in the minority religion?

This is inequality, prejudice, bigotry, paranoia....this is the basis of fascism. The "self-defense" thing can only serve as an excuse for repressing, intimidating, and humiliating peaceful opponents to the State ideology (in this case an Islamic State ideology, but it could just as well be fascism, communism, etc.) As soon as someone expresses an opinion you don't like (apostacy) you assume they are violent maniacs unless they "wish for peace". Of course, this means the authorities pay special attention to investigating apostates. Obviously, if you investigate a certain group of people more, you will convict them of more crimes. Meanwhile, ordinary citizens who may have committed just as many minor offenses, are not investigated as thoroughly and may not get convicted of these minor crimes. These are standard, subtle tactics of discrimination and intimidation, fueled by the excuse of "they're trying to kill us!!"

Excellent post Mr Spinkles,i would Frubal but i'm out,i think of religion as the Carrot and the stick ideology but this is just the stick part.

 

[AbuKhalid]

these questions are unfair to ask;

do you reject hadith?
did Sahaba lie about Prophet?...etc.

you asked similar stuff to me before. we are Muslims, you know? this is not about Mohammad(PBUH) or Sahaba. this is about some others, non-Muslims or/and Munafiqs who added hadiths in hadith books. they were enemies of Islam and adding hadiths to hadith books was the best thing they could do because they could not add anything to Qur'an.

And you have said this before many times. Yet on every occasion I have asked you to provide proof that these Ahadith are fake and where added by hypocrites you cant or you wont.

Do you understand what Sahih is? Do you understand that ALL THE SCHOLARS are in agreement about the authenticity of them. You keep referring to munafiqs yet conveniently ignore the fact that you are not talking about one or two people here but the entire Ulama throughout history. Are you a scholar of hadith to be able to merely say all the other scholars where wrong and call them Munafiqs because again I will repeat you are refering to ALL THE SCHOLARS throughout history.

Do you not even think it possible that you are wrong on this issue and the entire ulamma are right? Do you not think they considered what seem to be contradictions at first sight? Are you aware of abrogated verses in the Quran and which ones abrogated to be able to make your claim? Are you aware of the substituted verse on the stoning of adulterers? Do you understand the details of Usool Al Hadith to be able to criticise a hadith because if you are not qualified in this area of ilm then like me you cannot just claim Ahadith to be fabricated. Do you know the isnad through which these hadith in question came? For example Ali Ibn Abu Talib is one of the narrators of a hadith on apostasy - is he a fabricator? How can you make such claims without evidence because this is slander. There was never any doubt about the faith of those who narrated any of the Sahih Ahadith and yet we are now told they are munafiqs.

Clearly you are in error on this issue and even all the Sufi scholars do not doubt in the slightest the authenticity of Bukhari and Muslim so how can you?

there are two options, AbuKhalid. those hadiths are either fake or not. if they are fake, which i have no doubt they are, then Muslims who follow them, practice them and preach them as truth of Islam are unfortunately would be serving enemies of Islam. when you find out they are fake, can you emotionally handle this fact, my brother? it is your personaly duty to read Qur'an. when there's a claim for a hadith to be fake, read the only source with no mistakes and find the answer. this is all i am saying as yor friend. that's what i do. i can not find any verse that support those hadiths, on the contrary, i find verses that say otherwise.

How can you judge if they are fake? You are not qualified in usool al hadith or tafsir of the Quran. Every scholar who is say opposite to you.

so, please stop asking Muslims here if they call Sahaba liars. that is an insult. it is also unfair because it sounds like a threat. it sounds like you are ready to announce some Muslims because they stand against inhumanity as enemies of Islam even though they are not.

No, it is an honest question because this is what the Sahaba told us and is recorded in the hadith which are Sahih. What is an insult is to slander the narrators of hadith without any proof. You are claiming that some of the greatest muslims ever are really munafiqs. So present your evidence of this is you have any or else you should desist.

 

[keithnurse]

Fatihah I did read your whole post. If you look at my post, you will see I didn't suggest that you support death for people who merely change their belief.
And no one (on this thread anyway) is saying you can't use violence to defend yourself from violence. That's a moot point. We can set that aside.
The issue I am dealing with is about apostates who are outspoken about their beliefs (maybe they might persuade some people to leave Islam).
This has nothing to do with someone trying to kill you. Obviously, if someone is threatening to kill anyone, they should be arrested. That is not the scenario I am discussing.

Now, you have said several times the punishment for apostacy is death, "unless the apostate wishes for peace".
It sounds like you are saying that it is assumed apostates are psychopathic murderers, unless they make some effort, or provide some proof, that they are not.
If they are outspoken about their beliefs, and perhaps persuade people through nonviolent words to leave Islam, is the punishment death, in your view? Even when there is no evidence they are threatening anyone with violence?

Your view is obviously more humane than killing people outright, but even your view that apostates must "wish for peace", in some way that ordinary citizens are not required to do, is still prejudiced and paranoid, i.m.o.

Imagine if the law in the US was that any Christian who becomes an apostates (say he converts to Islam) will be put to death....unless he wishes for peace. Clearly this would be a tool for oppression and intimidation, because you assume people are violent, then threaten them with death, then make them promise they aren't a threat. But you don't do that to ALL people....you don't do it to Muslim apostates.....only Christian apostates. Isn't it obvious that this would serve as an excuse to intimidate, and treat unequally, and humiliate peaceful Muslim political opponents to the state, peaceful Muslim critics and authors and intellectuals, peaceful Muslims in the minority religion?

This is inequality, prejudice, bigotry, paranoia....this is the basis of fascism. The "self-defense" thing can only serve as an excuse for repressing, intimidating, and humiliating peaceful opponents to the State ideology (in this case an Islamic State ideology, but it could just as well be fascism, communism, etc.) As soon as someone expresses an opinion you don't like (apostacy) you assume they are violent maniacs unless they "wish for peace". Of course, this means the authorities pay special attention to investigating apostates. Obviously, if you investigate a certain group of people more, you will convict them of more crimes. Meanwhile, ordinary citizens who may have committed just as many minor offenses, are not investigated as thoroughly and may not get convicted of these minor crimes. These are standard, subtle tactics of discrimination and intimidation, fueled by the excuse of "they're trying to kill us!!"

Absolutely excellent post, Mr Spinkles.

 

[England my lionheart]

these questions are unfair to ask;

do you reject hadith?
did Sahaba lie about Prophet?...etc.

you asked similar stuff to me before. we are Muslims, you know? this is not about Mohammad(PBUH) or Sahaba. this is about some others, non-Muslims or/and Munafiqs who added hadiths in hadith books. they were enemies of Islam and adding hadiths to hadith books was the best thing they could do because they could not add anything to Qur'an.

there are two options, AbuKhalid. those hadiths are either fake or not. if they are fake, which i have no doubt they are, then Muslims who follow them, practice them and preach them as truth of Islam are unfortunately would be serving enemies of Islam. when you find out they are fake, can you emotionally handle this fact, my brother? it is your personaly duty to read Qur'an. when there's a claim for a hadith to be fake, read the only source with no mistakes and find the answer. this is all i am saying as yor friend. that's what i do. i can not find any verse that support those hadiths, on the contrary, i find verses that say otherwise.

so, please stop asking Muslims here if they call Sahaba liars. that is an insult. it is also unfair because it sounds like a threat. it sounds like you are ready to announce some Muslims because they stand against inhumanity as enemies of Islam even though they are not.

.

I understand your feelings on this Lava but you are saying the related Ahadith are false even though they are Sahih with continuous authenticity,what would anyone gain from falsifying a Ahadith pertaining to Apostates,if anything it could only gain Islam because an actual enemy would want to undermine not strengthen Islam.

 

[ayani]

Fatihah ~

but simply refering to past attrocities is not a valid excuse for cruelty and fear being used as weapons in the present.

giving excuses for such behavior doesn't make it right. and i understand that Muslim views on apostacy are diverse. there are many who would say that an apostate should be allowed to live, so long as they are peaceful. other Muslims would say that under no circumstances does Allah permit the killing of apostates, and others would say hands-down that an unrepentant apostate must be killed, peaceful or not.

so admittedly there is diversity of views on how apostates should be handled. and often, what one sees in theory in text and what happens in real life can be very different.

i thank you for your reasoning and responses, Faitihah, thay are appreciated. but past discrimination and persecution of Muslims aside, i really don't see how that excuses Muslims frightening, threatening, or killing apostates today. the truth is that in reality, many apostates do face intimidation and death threats, and sometimes death. whether they chose to leave Islam for atheism, Christianity, the baha'i faith, or any other faith / belief system / world view.

it's a troubling and sensitive issue, but it's an important one. and for those do do leave Islam and do feel threatened, the question of whether or not they may lose their life for their beliefs is a pressing and meaningful one. and one which, i would argue, deserves answers.

and Muslims here are giving their answers and views, and i thank them very much for that. :yes:

then why, Fatihah, are so many converts from Islam to other faiths threatened with death? why to Muslim leaders sometimes call for the execution of apostates, who do nothing to harm Muslims, only change their faith and say so publicly?


it would seem that theory and practice are very, very different.

and that many former Muslims who chose to not only declare but share their new faith face very real threats, violence, and sometimes death on account of widely accepted interpretations of the Quran and hadith.

Response: Well this is probably due to the cruelty that muslims themselves have to face. You see, throughout history, this was the tactic of non-muslims. In order to destroy the muslim community and create havoc in the land, they pretended to be muslims. This made it easier for them to hurt the muslims because they're able to work from the inside out instead of challenging the muslims head on. Then they would denounce the religion (become apostates) and attack. So the attitude since the early days of islam is to kill them before they kill you.

Then we must add the simple fact that the propaganda against islam is extreme. The non-muslims never want to acknowledge their own role in what plays out in the muslim countries and on top of that they add propaganda. All of this has created much hostile attitudes towards non-muslims from muslims. We must also add that the present muslim countries are all countries who were just freed from oppression from non-muslim countries. Under oppression, the knowledge of islam was lost. The sources are there but we have to basically re-educate ourselves as to what the religion is. Think of the African-Americans in America. Most have no idea what their history is because of 400+ years of slavery. So this is why there are muslims with many different interpretations, including those considered scholars.

 

[keithnurse]

Lava, other people on this thread who are more knowledgeable than me have asked you over and over to back up your claim that the Bukhari hadiths on apostasy are fake. All you have done is cite verses in the Qur'an and say that should be enough. It seems absurd to me to say that all the great scholars of Islam did not remember Surah 2:256 when they ALL agreed that Muhammed really did say "if someone (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him". All the scholars do NOT believe that hadith contradicts the Qur'an so I tend to believe them rather than you unless you can provide evidence that that hadith is fake. www.islamqa.com/en/ref/811

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Poor .lava and ProudMuslim.....confronted by believers and unbelievers, with both groups telling them as Muslims they must accept something they know in their hearts isn't right.

 

[England my lionheart]

In a way i can understand the Ahadith but only in the context of 1400 years ago at the inception of Islam when things were a little shaky but i cannot understand the Ahadith being taken literally in the 21st century.
If the general consensus among Muslims was of Lava's and Proud Muslims view regarding Apostates we would'nt have a problem,i have issues with the Quran but thats for another thread but i must say this thread has been enlightening.

 

[keithnurse]

The view that there should be no punishment for apostasy seems more prevalent among American lay Muslims. It certainly is not among scholars.

 

[England my lionheart]

The view that there should be no punishment for apostasy seems more prevalent among American lay Muslims. It certainly is not among scholars.

True,the Scholars generally agree it's death for a male Apostate and imprisonment for the Female,it's a crazy world we live in

 

[AbuKhalid]

The view that there should be no punishment for apostasy seems more prevalent among American lay Muslims. It certainly is not among scholars.

Because lay Muslims cant do tafsir of the Quran. Most are unaware of what particular ahadith relates to each ayat and what ayats are abrogated by other ayats and what ayats where abrogated from the Quran with their ruling remaining and what ayats where abrogated along with their ruling. Without this knowledge one cannot make an independent judgement and must therefore go with the opinions of those who have this knowledge. Of course this should be easy as there is no difference of opinion amongst the people of knowledge.

 

[.lava]

And you have said this before many times. Yet on every occasion I have asked you to provide proof that these Ahadith are fake and where added by hypocrites you cant or you wont.

Do you understand what Sahih is? Do you understand that ALL THE SCHOLARS are in agreement about the authenticity of them. You keep referring to munafiqs yet conveniently ignore the fact that you are not talking about one or two people here but the entire Ulama throughout history. Are you a scholar of hadith to be able to merely say all the other scholars where wrong and call them Munafiqs because again I will repeat you are refering to ALL THE SCHOLARS throughout history.

can we just get over with this "all scholar" issue? someone or some people, say 1200 years ago add some hadiths into hadith books by using this name or that name. how could scholar would know about it? it takes just a few betrayal to start this and the rest of scholar woud follow without knowing. that does not make all scholars munafiqs. that is not what i am saying. but those who knowingly added hadiths in hadith books are definetely enemies of Islam.

i have no doubt we both agree Allah is all-powerful. so Allah, if wishes for it, can write rules and commands and which hadith is fake even with clouds in the skies. we w ake up and read everyday. if Allah wants it to happen, it is very easy for Allah to do it. but Allah does not do that. Allah does not say something directly because it is again Allah who gave people intellect and conscience. so, yes, noone could bring a verse that says do not kill apostates. but at the same time if there were some fake hadith that says "eat piece of glass every two days" we could not find any verse to contradict it. but with human intellect and conscience and general Spirit of Qur'an we could have said that is inhumane so that hadith must be fake. because Allah is not cruel and Allah does not want people to suffer. Allah gave humantiy Qur'an only to show them a path to happiness, love and peace. where's that love and peace? you even scare me with things you say. men who speaks truth of Islam give peace. that is what i saw from people who teach me Islam. i do something wrong, they do not even point my mistake to me. they hide it. that makes me feel even more ashamed because of their kindness, humanity and love and that courages me even more to be a better person. everyone make mistakes. if we were supposed to stone people to death because they committed adultery then maybe we should hang those who gossip because that is a sin too. maybe we should execute people who tell lie because telling lie is a sin too.

Do you not even think it possible that you are wrong on this issue and the entire ulamma are right? Do you not think they considered what seem to be contradictions at first sight? Are you aware of abrogated verses in the Quran and which ones abrogated to be able to make your claim? Are you aware of the substituted verse on the stoning of adulterers? Do you understand the details of Usool Al Hadith to be able to criticise a hadith because if you are not qualified in this area of ilm then like me you cannot just claim Ahadith to be fabricated. Do you know the isnad through which these hadith in question came? For example Ali Ibn Abu Talib is one of the narrators of a hadith on apostasy - is he a fabricator? How can you make such claims without evidence because this is slander. There was never any doubt about the faith of those who narrated any of the Sahih Ahadith and yet we are now told they are munafiqs.

i personally can not point any person and say he is a munafiq. not anyone today or in history. i am not able to do that. i have teachers. whenever this kind of stuff happens i ask them questions because i can not know everything. it is not my personal belief on hadiths. none of us here accepts those hadiths as from Mohammad (PBUH). our blodlines lived under haria for long years. in Ottoman Sharia there is nt even one signle event such as executing an apostate or stoning people to death. tat does not exist in our history not now, not in times we lived Islamic Sharia. the last Caliph was Ottoman.

no, my friend, i do not slander anyone at all. i am here trying to invite you and eah individual to read Qur'an. you owe it to Allah, not me.

Clearly you are in error on this issue and even all the Sufi scholars do not doubt in the slightest the authenticity of Bukhari and Muslim so how can you?

my dear friend, Bukhari is the hadith book. there are thousands of hadiths in there. of course it is an important book. i am not disccusing the book itself here.

How can you judge if they are fake? You are not qualified in usool al hadith or tafsir of the Quran. Every scholar who is say opposite to you.

first of all these are end times. secondly, there are some verses in Qur'an that warn people about religious leaders and imams. and for the last thing, i have intellect and conscience. i would follow a Imam of Allah who invites heaven as i do now.

No, it is an honest question because this is what the Sahaba told us and is recorded in the hadith which are Sahih. What is an insult is to slander the narrators of hadith without any proof. You are claiming that some of the greatest muslims ever are really munafiqs. So present your evidence of this is you have any or else you should desist.

it is only Qur'an that is protected by Allah. it is only Qur'an that noone could ever add anything. the rest of the records are added many things. that's what satan does as he did to previous holy books. i would respect and practice whatever Mohammad (PBUH) said. but the fact remains here. even though they contain real hadiths, not even one single hadith book has protection from Allah. therefor i say let's read Qur'an. so, is it wrong for a Muslim to make such a invitation? should we consider this invitation as an attack to Islam?


.

 

[.lava]

Lava, other people on this thread who are more knowledgeable than me have asked you over and over to back up your claim that the Bukhari hadiths on apostasy are fake. All you have done is cite verses in the Qur'an and say that should be enough. It seems absurd to me to say that all the great scholars of Islam did not remember Surah 2:256 when they ALL agreed that Muhammed really did say "if someone (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him". All the scholars do NOT believe that hadith contradicts the Qur'an so I tend to believe them rather than you unless you can provide evidence that that hadith is fake. www.islamqa.com/en/ref/811

the point is i have exams. i do not have time very much but i would try to collect some verses to give a general idea on the subject. and yes, dear, commands of Allah that organize society in Qur'an should be enough. growing beard is sunnah, fasting on Thursdays is sunnah but killing apostates is a command, not sunnah. therefor it should have been mentioned in Qur'an but it is not. there are no missing commands in Qur'an.

.

 

[Alla Prima]

can we just get over with this "all scholar" issue?

:biglaugh: :biglaugh: :biglaugh:

Oh this too much! I'm sorry Lava but this is just hilarious! :biglaugh: I don't know how much deeper you can go in denial. First the verses are out of context. Then their false. Then we have false hadith and now what? False scholars?

:biglaugh:

 

[.lava]

Oh this too much! I'm sorry Lava but this is just hilarious! I don't know how much deeper you can go in denial. First the verses are out of context. Then their false. Then we have false hadith and now what? False scholars?

that's not what i was trying to tell him. he thought i was slandering scholars of Islam. but this is not about people who's alive today.

laugh as you like. i feel sorry for you. more than you laugh, you would cry.

.

 

[keithnurse]

Lava, have you read these articles on apostasy by a current living Islamic scholar?

www.islamqa.com/en/ref/811
www.islamqa.com/en/ref/14231

Would you tell me exactly why he is wrong and that you know better than he does what Islam teaches despite the fact that he has much more education in the sciences of hadith and qur'an interpretation?

 

[.lava]

And you have said this before many times. Yet on every occasion I have asked you to provide proof that these Ahadith are fake and where added by hypocrites you cant or you wont.

i only have Qur'an to show that that kind of hadiths can not be sahih. no verse would say which hadith is real or not. but verses would either back them up or not. so, if you know any verse that back those hadith up, then show me.

i shared before some verses. here i would again;

2:256 There is no compulsion in religion; truly the right way has become clearly distinct from error; therefore, whoever disbelieves in the Shaitan and believes in Allah he indeed has laid hold on the firmest handle, which shall not break off, and Allah is Hearing, Knowing.

88:21 Therefore do remind, for you are only a reminder.

109:6 You shall have your religion and I shall have my religion.

10:99 And if your Lord had pleased, surely all those who are in the earth would have believed, all of them; will you then force men till they become believers?

there is no compulsion in religion, (even) our Prophet SAW is only a reminder, everyone shall have whatever religion they follow and if Allah had pleased everyone would believe in what Muslims believe...and hadith says "kill whoever abandons Islam". don't you see a contradiction here? i mean, how come you don't?

.