Apostates of Islam

[DavyCrocket2003]

england,

proof of good, is going agains his own claims, the punishment of 100 lashes is in the quran, and yet he doesn't believe in the punishment of 100 lashes, anything that he does not like due to him not having anwers to answer the questions of the non muslims he considers it to be false, i bet to you that he considers the verses of 100 lashes false, why because if he did belive in them and you asked him why, he won't know how to reply to you.

go ask him about the verse that says kill the non muslims where ever you find them, bring those verses to him, and unless he has something preppared in his website, from where he gets his info, he won't be able to reply and will call the verses false if he can't come up with an answer.

you know he is the person who has no freedom of speach, he only replies to people when he gets info from that website, or asks those people who have created it, that kind of belief is way wrong, that they will not answer you from their own knowledge, but will ask someone else to tell them the answer, i too do not know many things, but that wich i know for certain i say it because all the other muslims agree with me on it, he however, cannot do that, because if he gave you a reply from his own knowledge and own mind, then another person who is in that same path(just the quran) would go agains proof of god, they contradict each other, so they never give their own opinions. because it is not the right way, unlike the rest of us muslims.

So we shouldn't think for ourselves? We should just mindlessly follow what we are told? I mean, I'm all for faith and everything, but just because a lot of people agree on the same thing, that doesn't mean it's true. What if all Americans agreed that Islam is evil? Does that make it so? No! You cannot just go by what people say. You have to think for yourself! This is not bad! God gave you a brain and a heart. He gave you the ability to think for yourself. How can you ever know if something is true, unless you find out for yourself? You claim Islam is the only true religion, right? Well what if you had been born in an LDS community? Using your logic, you would have lived LDS all your life and never found Islam. You can't always rely on others to give you the truth. Sometimes you have to experience it yourself.

 

[DavyCrocket2003]

Oh yeah...
and eselam, thank you for honestly answering our questions even though you know you will get criticized for it. I am very happy to get to talk to you. There are not many Muslims where I live, though I have met a few at my university.

 

[Gharib]

So we shouldn't think for ourselves? We should just mindlessly follow what we are told? I mean, I'm all for faith and everything, but just because a lot of people agree on the same thing, that doesn't mean it's true. What if all Americans agreed that Islam is evil? Does that make it so? No! You cannot just go by what people say. You have to think for yourself! This is not bad! God gave you a brain and a heart. He gave you the ability to think for yourself. How can you ever know if something is true, unless you find out for yourself? You claim Islam is the only true religion, right? Well what if you had been born in an LDS community? Using your logic, you would have lived LDS all your life and never found Islam. You can't always rely on others to give you the truth. Sometimes you have to experience it yourself.

dave, dave, i think you have missinterpreted my post.

what i meant that other muslims would agree with me was that we can be from different parts of the world such as we are and we still have the same views on many things regarding verses, hadith, and islamic knowledge in general. where as people like proof of god, cannot comment on something from their own mind, because they contradict themself with other people who believe the same thing, they get their info from the smae person, so that people will really think that way (just the quran) is really better than the hadiths and sunnah. they are trying to corrupt islam by simply all of them having the same answer from the same person, in order for people to thing that, how they describe islam is the correct way, and Allah says in the quran that if you are an enemie of my prophets i too am you enemie. so how can he be a muslim if Allah is his enemie or even Muhammed (saws) is his enemie, he is going against Muhammed (saws). that person who does that is not a muslim, otherwise all the people would be muslims, the reason they aren't is because they think that Muhammed (saws) was a bad man, if they though otherwise, they would be muslims.

 

[Gharib]

Oh yeah...
and eselam, thank you for honestly answering our questions even though you know you will get criticized for it.

you are welcome
can i ask wich questions you are reffering to. if it is about proof of god, then no need to expalin.

what will i get criticized about? and most importantly why?

I am very happy to get to talk to you. There are not many Muslims where I live, though I have met a few at my university.

davy, if you are interested in knowing more about islam, then please feel free private message me you questions, i will answer you.
i wouldn't consider oppening a thread because many people will come there just to go agains me and i will lose concetration in answering them.

 

[DavyCrocket2003]

dave, dave, i think you have missinterpreted my post.

what i meant that other muslims would agree with me was that we can be from different parts of the world such as we are and we still have the same views on many things regarding verses, hadith, and islamic knowledge in general. where as people like proof of god, cannot comment on something from their own mind, because they contradict themself with other people who believe the same thing, they get their info from the smae person, so that people will really think that way (just the quran) is really better than the hadiths and sunnah. they are trying to corrupt islam by simply all of them having the same answer from the same person, in order for people to thing that, how they describe islam is the correct way, and Allah says in the quran that if you are an enemie of my prophets i too am you enemie. so how can he be a muslim if Allah is his enemie or even Muhammed (saws) is his enemie, he is going against Muhammed (saws). that person who does that is not a muslim, otherwise all the people would be muslims, the reason they aren't is because they think that Muhammed (saws) was a bad man, if they though otherwise, they would be muslims.

I'm trying to understand. Are you saying that there are many people like proof of god who all get their ideas from the same website? Do you agree that it is alright to think for yourself? And I'm not quite sure why it is wrong for proof of god to say what he thinks, even if it goes against what others say.

 

[Gharib]

I'm trying to understand. Are you saying that there are many people like proof of god who all get their ideas from the same website?

well they, just as other muslims get their info from one person, muslims get their info from Muhammed (saws), where as proof of god also gets them from a man who is saying that islam is only based on the quran, and not on the hadith and the sunnah. but the difference here is that, sooner or latter that belief will start to expand, just as we did from Muhammed (saws), so at the moment they do all get the same info from one source to make people think that their way(just the quran) is the real way, so everyone has the same answer and there are no arguments condradicting each other yet. but when more people will join that belief, someone will not wait for an answer to respond to someone else, so they will answer from their own mind, thus it will start to show that, that specific belief is wrong, just as the rest of islam is wrong according to proof of god. he thinks that the we should not believe the word of Muhammed (saws), we should not try to imitate him etc...

Do you agree that it is alright to think for yourself?

everyone thinks for themself, so why should it not ke OK.

And I'm not quite sure why it is wrong for proof of god to say what he thinks, even if it goes against what others say.

it is wrong because of this;

he believes only in the quran and not the haith or sunnah, yet he goes around saying that the quran has false verses in it. Allah has said that he will protect it from alteration.

you see, he is going against that very thing that he believes in, which is Allah and the quran.

 

[DavyCrocket2003]

What about personal revelation? Not all information must be entirely dependent on other people.

 

[Gharib]

What about personal revelation? Not all information must be entirely dependent on other people.

what do you mean by "personal revelation", as in god telling me do this do that?

 

[Kodanshi]

Which, of course, would go against the Islâmic dogma that god would not speak directly to people after Muhammad, because that would make someone else a prophet, and apparently no prophets would come after Muhammad…

 

[Gharib]

Which, of course, would go against the Islâmic dogma that god would not speak directly to people after Muhammad, because that would make someone else a prophet, and apparently no prophets would come after Muhammad…

can you atleast try to be respective and not use bad words, yes, Muhammed (saws) is the last prophet, Allah created him before anything, and sent him to us last, i my self am honoured by Allah to have me be part of the Ummah of his most beloved creation, Muhammed (saws)

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Bad words? Where did Kodanshi use a bad word?

 

[ProudMuslim]

That's very interesting ProudMuslim, thank you for addressing these questions. Given your views, are you not shocked and appalled by eselam's statement?

To be honest no am not. I know that some Muslims think that killing apostates is an Islamic teaching. It is not. Islam is a religion of reasoning, rationality and logic. Flip this issue in all its sides and nothing will make sense of killing a person for merely changing his belief. In contrary i can go on and on about the negative results of committing such a rule.

 

[ProudMuslim]

It declares to the direct addressees of Muhammad (pbuh) that if they do not accept the message of God’s messenger (Muhammad) their fate shall be no different from those nations that have gone before them (See Surah Al-Qamar, the whole Surah especially verse 43 - 45).
​

God Most High declares in the Qur'an:

But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion. We detail our revelations for a people who have knowledge. And if they break their pledges after their treaty (hath been made with you) and assail your religion, then fight the heads of disbelief -- Lo! they have no binding oaths in order that they may desist. (9:11,12)[1]

Quran:18.74 the Boy

The passages in the Koran dealing with apostasy are the chapter of Women, verse 90; the chapter of the Table, verse 59; and the chapter of the Bee, verse 108, viz:
"Why are ye two parties about the hypocrites, when God hath overturned them for what they earned? Do ye wish to guide those whom God hath led astray? Whoso God hath led astray ye shall not surely find for him a path. They would fain that ye misbelieve as they misbelieve, that ye might be alike; take ye not patrons from among them until they too fight in God's way; but if they turn their backs, then seize them wheresoever ye and them, and take from them neither patron nor help" (IV. 90, 91). "O ye who believe! Whoso is turned away from his religion-God will bring (instead) a people whom He loves and who love Him, lowly to. believers, lofty to unbelievers, strenuous in the way of God, fearing not the blame of him who blames" (V.59).
​

I know my holy book, can you explain what exactly are you referring at in those verses?

Women Verse 87-90 (I have posted both verses so that you can understand)

"What is the matter with you, then, that you have become two parties about the hypocrites, while Allah has made them return (to unbelief) for what they have earned? Do you wish to guide him whom Allah has caused to err? And whomsoever Allah causes to err, you shall by no means find a way for him

They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper

Except those who reach a people between whom and you there is an alliance, or who come to you, their hearts shrinking from fighting you or fighting their own people; and if Allah had pleased, He would have given them power over you, so that they should have certainly fought you; therefore if they withdraw from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not given you a way against them

You will find others who desire that they should be safe from you and secure from their own people; as often as they are sent back to the mischief they get thrown into it headlong; therefore if they do not withdraw from you, and (do not) offer you peace and restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them; and against these We have given you a clear authority. "

Pay attention specially to the "bold" part. Those verses are proof that there is no worldy punishment for apostates, but for those who break covenants and choose to fight. In fact those verses are tackling hypocrites, which are considered the lowest type of deceivers. They are those who pretend to be something when they are not while at the same time fighting/scheming against you. That is normally what we call treason not apostatsy.

 

[Kodanshi]

can you atleast try to be respective and not use bad words, yes, Muhammed (saws) is the last prophet, Allah created him before anything, and sent him to us last, i my self am honoured by Allah to have me be part of the Ummah of his most beloved creation, Muhammed (saws)

What disrespectful words did I use?

 

[England my lionheart]

I know my holy book, can you explain what exactly are you referring at in those verses?

Women Verse 87-90 (I have posted both verses so that you can understand)

"What is the matter with you, then, that you have become two parties about the hypocrites, while Allah has made them return (to unbelief) for what they have earned? Do you wish to guide him whom Allah has caused to err? And whomsoever Allah causes to err, you shall by no means find a way for him

They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper

Except those who reach a people between whom and you there is an alliance, or who come to you, their hearts shrinking from fighting you or fighting their own people; and if Allah had pleased, He would have given them power over you, so that they should have certainly fought you; therefore if they withdraw from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not given you a way against them

You will find others who desire that they should be safe from you and secure from their own people; as often as they are sent back to the mischief they get thrown into it headlong; therefore if they do not withdraw from you, and (do not) offer you peace and restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them; and against these We have given you a clear authority. "

Pay attention specially to the "bold" part. Those verses are proof that there is no worldy punishment for apostates, but for those who break covenants and choose to fight. In fact those verses are tackling hypocrites, which are considered the lowest type of deceivers. They are those who pretend to be something when they are not while at the same time fighting/scheming against you. That is normally what we call treason not apostatsy.

So is a child born into Islam,grows up in Islam then decides he/she no longer wants Islam a hypocrite,traitor or Apostate

 

[ProudMuslim]

So is a child born into Islam,grows up in Islam then decides he/she no longer wants Islam a hypocrite,traitor or Apostate

If a child that was born to English parents but decided that he does not want England to be his homeland and gave up his citizenship, is he a traitor?

You see the information i have given you in my question is not enough so it is difficult to come up with an asnwer.

I think the difference between a traitor, an apostate and a hypocrite is crystal clear.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

If a child that was born to English parents but decided that he does not want England to be his homeland and gave up his citizenship, is he a traitor?

You see the information i have given you in my question is not enough so it is difficult to come up with an asnwer.

The answer seems simple to me...no, he is not a traitor.

 

[Kodanshi]

That’s exactly what I said when I wrote that ‘treatise against the execution of apostates’. My last two points focussed on this insistence by muslims of referring to apostasy as the equivalent of treason.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Kodanshi - Where can I read your treatise? Thanks.

 

[ProudMuslim]

The answer seems simple to me...no, he is not a traitor.

Well yes and no.

The person i am talking about perhaps would like to join a terrorist mini cell to attack his own "former" country. That will make him a traitor.

But if he simply wants to leave the country and maintain respect and peace then he is not a traitor.

That is what i meant and that what i was saying all along. An apostate is different from a traitor, one can be both but a believer can also be a traitor. Treason is the crime that recieved capital punishment.