Apostates of Islam

[Mr Spinkles]

no it isn't, americans kill people for stealing money to eat some food, to live, now is that cruel and barbaric to you?

To answer your question: yes, it is barbaric to kill people for stealing money to eat and live. I wasn't aware this was common in the U.S., but yes I agree any American who does this is acting despicably.

Now going back to the original question....I ask eselam if it is barbaric to kill people who leave their religion, and eselam replies:

"no it isn't"
​

Incredible! Surely the rest of the kind, reasonable, enlightened Muslim posters on this forum realize this is despicable nonsense....will they call eselam's statement out for the barbarity and cruelty that it is?

Or will they pretend to take eselam's side, under the mistaken impression that group solidarity against infidels gives Islam a better image than individual thinking, honesty and self-criticism?

 

[Mr Spinkles]

But "there is no compulsion in religion' is 1400 years old doctorine!

Like I have explained earlier there isn't any event of Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) killing an apostate. The war that took place between Muslims and Apostates after the death of the Prophet were not merely about leaving the religion but it was about treason, about breaking the covenant. Qur'an does not mention any worldly punshiment for any apostate who respects the peace. Islam is not interested to keep people by force when it can attacts many other.

That's very interesting ProudMuslim, thank you for addressing these questions. Given your views, are you not shocked and appalled by eselam's statement?

 

[England my lionheart]

But "there is no compulsion in religion' is 1400 years old doctorine!

Like I have explained earlier there isn't any event of Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) killing an apostate. The war that took place between Muslims and Apostates after the death of the Prophet were not merely about leaving the religion but it was about treason, about breaking the covenant. Qur'an does not mention any worldly punshiment for any apostate who respects the peace. Islam is not interested to keep people by force when it can attacts many other.

It declares to the direct addressees of Muhammad (pbuh) that if they do not accept the message of God’s messenger (Muhammad) their fate shall be no different from those nations that have gone before them (See Surah Al-Qamar, the whole Surah especially verse 43 - 45).​

God Most High declares in the Qur'an:

But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion. We detail our revelations for a people who have knowledge. And if they break their pledges after their treaty (hath been made with you) and assail your religion, then fight the heads of disbelief -- Lo! they have no binding oaths in order that they may desist. (9:11,12)[1]

Quran:18.74 the Boy

The passages in the Koran dealing with apostasy are the chapter of Women, verse 90; the chapter of the Table, verse 59; and the chapter of the Bee, verse 108, viz:
"Why are ye two parties about the hypocrites, when God hath overturned them for what they earned? Do ye wish to guide those whom God hath led astray? Whoso God hath led astray ye shall not surely find for him a path. They would fain that ye misbelieve as they misbelieve, that ye might be alike; take ye not patrons from among them until they too fight in God's way; but if they turn their backs, then seize them wheresoever ye and them, and take from them neither patron nor help" (IV. 90, 91). "O ye who believe! Whoso is turned away from his religion-God will bring (instead) a people whom He loves and who love Him, lowly to. believers, lofty to unbelievers, strenuous in the way of God, fearing not the blame of him who blames" (V.59).
​

 

[England my lionheart]

There shall be no compulsion in religion

Narrated Ikrima, "Some atheists were brought to Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's messenger forbade it, saying, "Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire)." I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Messenger, "Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him."

 

[Kodanshi]

^ Which, I must point out, comes from Sahih Bukhari!

 

[England my lionheart]

Which is authentic

 

[DavyCrocket2003]

Please note, this is a typical muslim tactic so that they can avoid debating or even thinking about something negative about their religion, especially when they would otherwise have to concoct bizarre rationalisations to explain away the inconsistencies in their god and religion.

It is known as the logical fallacy of tu quoque.

Please don't try and interpret what someone is saying for them. They can do that themselves much better than you or I. It doesn't do any good for anyone.

 

[DavyCrocket2003]

well i'm not the one who started it. see when something that the western world doesn't like, then it has to be wrong, it must. so what i;m saying is that the west needs to take a darn good long look at itself before it can judge the others. there is a saying"he who is to be laughed at, laughs at others", and to apply this it sounds like this, the west has way more problems than anyone, and yet they are stuffing their nose in everyone elses bussines saying we are going to make the world better. now tell me just how is that ever going to happen?

if you have personal problems at home, you are in no possition to solve the same issues of another family. if i'm wrong about this, please tell me, i will reconsider.



well i cannot record tv channels and post them on to here, but if you are from the US you know what i'm talking about, unless you are deliberately trying to saound as though you have never heard of such cruel acts commited in the US.



there is no complain in that, the police stop him who they stop, it's like telling death to take someone elses soul too, because you both were born at the same date, month and year. that is nonsense

I am sorry, maybe I am very ignorant. I live in the U.S. and have lived here my whole life. I am not sure what you are talking about? Can you help me understand? Seriously, I'm not trying to play dumb or anything. I would be shocked and horrified to know that such a practice as you describe were taking place!

 

[DavyCrocket2003]

But "there is no compulsion in religion' is 1400 years old doctorine!

Like I have explained earlier there isn't any event of Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) killing an apostate. The war that took place between Muslims and Apostates after the death of the Prophet were not merely about leaving the religion but it was about treason, about breaking the covenant. Qur'an does not mention any worldly punshiment for any apostate who respects the peace. Islam is not interested to keep people by force when it can attacts many other.

Whew! Glad to hear it. All this talk of killing apostates had me worried. I have always held Muhammed in very high regard and I am glad to hear that he can still hold my respect.

 

[DavyCrocket2003]

It declares to the direct addressees of Muhammad (pbuh) that if they do not accept the message of God’s messenger (Muhammad) their fate shall be no different from those nations that have gone before them (See Surah Al-Qamar, the whole Surah especially verse 43 - 45).​

God Most High declares in the Qur'an:

But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion. We detail our revelations for a people who have knowledge. And if they break their pledges after their treaty (hath been made with you) and assail your religion, then fight the heads of disbelief -- Lo! they have no binding oaths in order that they may desist. (9:11,12)[1]

Quran:18.74 the Boy

The passages in the Koran dealing with apostasy are the chapter of Women, verse 90; the chapter of the Table, verse 59; and the chapter of the Bee, verse 108, viz:
"Why are ye two parties about the hypocrites, when God hath overturned them for what they earned? Do ye wish to guide those whom God hath led astray? Whoso God hath led astray ye shall not surely find for him a path. They would fain that ye misbelieve as they misbelieve, that ye might be alike; take ye not patrons from among them until they too fight in God's way; but if they turn their backs, then seize them wheresoever ye and them, and take from them neither patron nor help" (IV. 90, 91). "O ye who believe! Whoso is turned away from his religion-God will bring (instead) a people whom He loves and who love Him, lowly to. believers, lofty to unbelievers, strenuous in the way of God, fearing not the blame of him who blames" (V.59).
​

I think it would be very difficult to get a broad and accurate representation of Allah's will on the subject from just a few passages. I mean, the same goes for the Bible. Take for instance how God commands the Israelites to kill all of the Caananites, because of their wickedness and rejection of God. Yet, I don't think the overall message of the Bible is one of killing unbelievers. Cannot the same thing be true of the Quran?

 

[linwood]

But if you read 'Fatihah' last sentence, it clearly says that apostates who leave peacefully and dont wage wars against us, no harm should come to them. I dont think he is equating apostates to traitors.

How do you judge Kodanshi`s post here..

Why I left Islam

Is Kodanshi a "traitor" to Islam?

Edit:

Now that I`ve read a bit further I see you`ve met Kodanshi.

Nevermind..

:areyoucra

 

[Gharib]

Killing innocent people is always barbaric, immoral, and unjust. But I'm not exactly sure what you're talking about when you say Americans kill people for stealing money. Could you provide an example?

i'd love to, but i can't record TV shows and post them here.

 

[England my lionheart]

I think it would be very difficult to get a broad and accurate representation of Allah's will on the subject from just a few passages. I mean, the same goes for the Bible. Take for instance how God commands the Israelites to kill all of the Caananites, because of their wickedness and rejection of God. Yet, I don't think the overall message of the Bible is one of killing unbelievers. Cannot the same thing be true of the Quran?

I think you are missing the point

Sura (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them"

Bukhari (52:260) - "...The Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' "

Bukhari (84:57) - "[In the words of] Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"

Bukhari (89:271) - A man who embraces Islam, then reverts to Judaism is to be killed according to "the verdict of Allah and his apostle."

Bukhari (84:58) - "There was a fettered man beside Abu Muisa. Mu'adh asked, 'Who is this (man)?' Abu Muisa said, 'He was a Jew and became a Muslim and then reverted back to Judaism.' Then Abu Muisa requested Mu'adh to sit down but Mu'adh said, 'I will not sit down till he has been killed. This is the judgment of Allah and His Apostle (for such cases) and repeated it thrice.' Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed. Abu Musa added, 'Then we discussed the night prayers'"

Bukhari (84:64-65) - "Allah's Apostle: 'During the last days there will appear some young foolish people who will say the best words but their faith will not go beyond their throats (i.e. they will have no faith) and will go out from (leave) their religion as an arrow goes out of the game. So, wherever you find them, kill them, for whoever kills them shall have reward on the Day of Resurrection.'"

The problem is that because Muslims want and try to emulate Muhammed in every way from ablutions to prayer from everything he did in his life like killing Apostates,hence we have the situation in Iran,Syria,Pakistan etc where they are killing
not only Apostates but Homosexuals,Adulterers Bahai so on and all is based on the Hadith and Sunna.

 

[Gharib]

I think you are missing the point
Comment: Well let me educate you. Apparently, you don't know your islam very well.

Sura (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them"

Bukhari (52:260) - "...The Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' "

Bukhari (84:57) - "[In the words of] Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"

Bukhari (89:271) - A man who embraces Islam, then reverts to Judaism is to be killed according to "the verdict of Allah and his apostle."

Bukhari (84:58) - "There was a fettered man beside Abu Muisa. Mu'adh asked, 'Who is this (man)?' Abu Muisa said, 'He was a Jew and became a Muslim and then reverted back to Judaism.' Then Abu Muisa requested Mu'adh to sit down but Mu'adh said, 'I will not sit down till he has been killed. This is the judgment of Allah and His Apostle (for such cases) and repeated it thrice.' Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed. Abu Musa added, 'Then we discussed the night prayers'"

Bukhari (84:64-65) - "Allah's Apostle: 'During the last days there will appear some young foolish people who will say the best words but their faith will not go beyond their throats (i.e. they will have no faith) and will go out from (leave) their religion as an arrow goes out of the game. So, wherever you find them, kill them, for whoever kills them shall have reward on the Day of Resurrection.'"

The problem is that because Muslims want and try to emulate Muhammed in every way from ablutions to prayer from everything he did in his life like killing Apostates,hence we have the situation in Iran,Syria,Pakistan etc where they are killing
not only Apostates but Homosexuals,Adulterers Bahai so on and all is based on the Hadith and Sunna.

none of you guys still get it do you?

yes we do copy Muhammed (saws) in every aspect, but we cannot take the laws into our own hands, the law of killing apostates is for the government of islam, and as far as i know we do not have a government.

so what i'm saying is we do immitate the prophet, but he was a leader of a country too, so how can i copy him here, i am not a leader of any country, this is not something for an individual muslim to do, many billions of muslims cannot copy Muhammed (saws) in his characteristics as a leader, because we will not become one.

does anyone find this hard to understand, please let me know.

 

[England my lionheart]

none of you guys still get it do you?

yes we do copy Muhammed (saws) in every aspect, but we cannot take the laws into our own hands, the law of killing apostates is for the government of islam, and as far as i know we do not have a government.

so what i'm saying is we do immitate the prophet, but he was a leader of a country too, so how can i copy him here, i am not a leader of any country, this is not something for an individual muslim to do, many billions of muslims cannot copy Muhammed (saws) in his characteristics as a leader, because we will not become one.

does anyone find this hard to understand, please let me know.

Yes,i do,i find it hard to understand

 

[DavyCrocket2003]

none of you guys still get it do you?

yes we do copy Muhammed (saws) in every aspect, but we cannot take the laws into our own hands, the law of killing apostates is for the government of islam, and as far as i know we do not have a government.

so what i'm saying is we do immitate the prophet, but he was a leader of a country too, so how can i copy him here, i am not a leader of any country, this is not something for an individual muslim to do, many billions of muslims cannot copy Muhammed (saws) in his characteristics as a leader, because we will not become one.

does anyone find this hard to understand, please let me know.

I think I see what you are saying. Muhammed had many different responsibilities. He was the leader of a nation, as well as the leader of a religion, and many other things. Some actions are in regards to his role as leader of a nation. These things don't necessarily apply to all Muslims. On the other hand, something he did in his role as a husband would apply to all husbands. I think that kind of makes sense.

 

[England my lionheart]

none of you guys still get it do you?

yes we do copy Muhammed (saws) in every aspect, but we cannot take the laws into our own hands, the law of killing apostates is for the government of islam, and as far as i know we do not have a government.

so what i'm saying is we do immitate the prophet, but he was a leader of a country too, so how can i copy him here, i am not a leader of any country, this is not something for an individual muslim to do, many billions of muslims cannot copy Muhammed (saws) in his characteristics as a leader, because we will not become one.

does anyone find this hard to understand, please let me know.

In another thread by Proof of God who is a Muslim argues that the hadith is something Islam could do without,the Hadiths whether authentic or false are responsible for whats happening in Iran,Afghanistan,Pakistan,Saudi,Uzbekistan etc,
stoning,amputations,lashes Hadd punishments that are based on the life of the Prophet,sex discrination freedom of speech its all there.

 

[linwood]

So......

How do you judge Kodanshi`s post here..

Why I left Islam

Is Kodanshi a "traitor" to Islam?

 

[Gharib]

I think I see what you are saying. Muhammed had many different responsibilities. He was the leader of a nation, as well as the leader of a religion, and many other things. Some actions are in regards to his role as leader of a nation. These things don't necessarily apply to all Muslims. On the other hand, something he did in his role as a husband would apply to all husbands. I think that kind of makes sense.

yes exactly, this is where non muslims get it wrong, we do immitate him but the hadiths of adultery and appostacy do not apply to a simple muslim, he is not a leader, he is sopposed to believe in them, but he cannot act apon them as to kill the apostate or the adutery, Muhammed (saws) was also a poor person, so poor people can copy him, he was also a rich person at other times so rich people can copy him, see this is why he is the best example for us humans to live our life according to, he was everything, a father, a husband, a son, a leader, a warrior/soldier, an army leader etc. if we coppied him in the aspects that fit us (ie a leader to copy him, a soldier to copy him) the world would be so nice. but life isn't perfect.

 

[Gharib]

In another thread by Proof of God who is a Muslim argues that the hadith is something Islam could do without,the Hadiths whether authentic or false are responsible for whats happening in Iran,Afghanistan,Pakistan,Saudi,Uzbekistan etc,
stoning,amputations,lashes Hadd punishments that are based on the life of the Prophet,sex discrination freedom of speech its all there.

england,

proof of good, is going agains his own claims, the punishment of 100 lashes is in the quran, and yet he doesn't believe in the punishment of 100 lashes, anything that he does not like due to him not having anwers to answer the questions of the non muslims he considers it to be false, i bet to you that he considers the verses of 100 lashes false, why because if he did belive in them and you asked him why, he won't know how to reply to you.

note; i can't rememcer if there were any verses that speak about the lashes in the quran, but i've heard other muslims say so, and that why i said they are verses in the quran.

go ask him about the verse that says kill the non muslims where ever you find them, bring those verses to him, and unless he has something preppared in his website, from where he gets his info, he won't be able to reply and will call the verses false if he can't come up with an answer.

you know he is the person who has no freedom of speach, he only replies to people when he gets info from that website, or asks those people who have created it, that kind of belief is way wrong, that they will not answer you from their own knowledge, but will ask someone else to tell them the answer, i too do not know many things, but that wich i know for certain i say it because all the other muslims agree with me on it, he however, cannot do that, because if he gave you a reply from his own knowledge and own mind, then another person who is in that same path(just the quran) would go agains proof of god, they contradict each other, so they never give their own opinions. because it is not the right way, unlike the rest of us muslims.