Apostates of Islam

[Judgment]

oh yes you did, but i didn't understand it, ok my bad.

no they are not always an enemie, we may be enemies of each other in religious views but not in physical terms.

here is a verse for you;

[5:82] You will find that the worst enemies of the believers are the Jews and the idol worshipers. And you will find that the closest people in friendship to the believers are those who say, "We are Christian." This is because they have priests and monks among them, and they are not arrogant.

so clearly it is speaking about religious views. otherwise Allah (swt) could have just said they are all our enemies. and there is also this verse;

[3:20] If they argue with you, then say, "I have simply submitted myself to GOD; I and those who follow me." You shall proclaim to those who received the scripture, as well as those who did not, "Would you submit?" If they submit, then they have been guided, but if they turn away, your sole mission is to deliver this message. GOD is Seer of all people.

Then why does it say... ?

005.051O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.

 

[Gharib]

Then why does it say... ?

005.051O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.

oh man are we going to go through all of the quran?

i'm not a scholar you know, but i will answer all your questions if Allah permits it.

there is nothing wrong with that verse adn the other one.

it is speaking about friendship not enemies.

Allah is saying that we should not take a jew or christian as a friend over a muslim.

so if i leave a muslim for a christian then i am a christian since i do not like muslims.

 

[Judgment]

oh man are we going to go through all of the quran?

i'm not a scholar you know, but i will answer all your questions if Allah permits it.

there is nothing wrong with that verse adn the other one.

it is speaking about friendship not enemies.

Allah is saying that we should not take a jew or christian as a friend over a muslim.

so if i leave a muslim for a christian then i am a christian since i do not like muslims.

So you are saying it does not say what it says ?

Where some Jews and Christians turned in to Apes and swine ?

005.060 Shall I tell thee of a worse (case) than theirs for retribution with Allah? (Worse is the case of him) whom Allah hath cursed, him on whom His wrath hath fallen and of whose sort Allah hath turned some to apes and swine, and who serveth idols. Such are in worse plight and further astray from the plain road.

 

[Gharib]

So you are saying it does not say what it says ?

are we speaking about the verse below or the previous ones?

Where some Jews and Christians turned in to Apes and swine ?

005.060 Shall I tell thee of a worse (case) than theirs for retribution with Allah? (Worse is the case of him) whom Allah hath cursed, him on whom His wrath hath fallen and of whose sort Allah hath turned some to apes and swine, and who serveth idols. Such are in worse plight and further astray from the plain road.

i do not know what "swine" is, but yes they have been turned into apes, for breaking the rules on the saturday that they were told not to go fishing.

 

[Judgment]

are we speaking about the verse below or the previous ones?



i do not know what "swine" is, but yes they have been turned into apes, for breaking the rules on the saturday that they were told not to go fishing.

The previous verse. It clearly states what it states.

 

[Gharib]

The previous verse. It clearly states what it states.

yes i know, and i am not contradicting it.

it seems you are confused about something, can you tell me what the problem is?

is my reply wrong or something?

 

[.lava]

Hi Lava... You can choose - but - will you be slayed for not choosing correctly ?

Sura (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them"

no, we are not commanded to kill people because they are non-Muslims. we are commanded to do that when they attack our nations, our people to kill and to destroy. that is called self defense.

4:89 They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper

4:90 Except those who seek refuge with a people between whom and you there is a covenant, or (those who) come unto you because their hearts forbid them to make war on you or make war on their own folk. Had Allah willed He could have given them power over you so that assuredly they would have fought you. So, if they hold aloof from you and wage not war against you and offer you peace, Allah alloweth you no way against them.

it is our duty to fight back if we were attacked. but not against who do not fight us. is there anything unclear to you now?

.

 

[Alla Prima]

no, we are not commanded to kill people because they are non-Muslims. we are commanded to do that when they attack our nations, our people to kill and to destroy. that is called self defense.

The problem is this 'defense' is not specifically defined so that merely rejecting Islam can be interpreted as an attack warranting a defense.

 

[Judgment]

yes i know, and i am not contradicting it.

it seems you are confused about something, can you tell me what the problem is?

is my reply wrong or something?

The verse in question only states that you should not take Jews and Christians as friends - it does not say only over Muslims.

It is not the only verse. In this case you are a wrong-doer if you do so.
009.023O ye who believe! Choose not your fathers nor your brethren for friends if they take pleasure in disbelief rather than faith. Whoso of you taketh them for friends, such are wrong-doers.

 

[Alla Prima]

are we speaking about the verse below or the previous ones?



i do not know what "swine" is, but yes they have been turned into apes, for breaking the rules on the saturday that they were told not to go fishing.

You worship a diety that turns people into pigs and apes for going fishing?

 

[Gharib]

The verse in question only states that you should not take Jews and Christians as friends - it does not say only over Muslims.

It is not the only verse. In this case you are a wrong-doer if you do so.
009.023O ye who believe! Choose not your fathers nor your brethren for friends if they take pleasure in disbelief rather than faith. Whoso of you taketh them for friends, such are wrong-doers.

yes. so thats exactly what i said.

if my father was not a muslim, he would say to me to leave islam if i converted to it.

so if i took my fathers word then i'm clearly a wrong doer, since my father isn't interested in islam (faith) but rather in disbelief, and i should be taking friends those who are believers, over my father (ie. take their word over my fathers)

is it clear in this way or is it not still?

 

[Gharib]

You worship a diety that turns people into pigs and apes for going fishing?

yeah sure, why not. say it but don't spray it.

i knew that already, he is also a deity that will punish humans with hell, just incase you didn't know that.

 

[Alla Prima]

yeah sure, why not. say it but don't spray it.

i knew that already, he is also a deity that will punish humans with hell, just incase you didn't know that.

Allah is indeed worthy of contempt and Muslims who worship him pity.

 

[AbuKhalid]

The word in Arabic which is translated to friends in the above verse is Awliya (the plural of Wali)and this doesn't really mean friend in the sense English speakers would understand it. It better translates as protectors. For example when a Muslim woman gets married she would have a Wali who is usually her father - friend just doesnt fit.

 

[Gharib]

The word in Arabic which is translated to friends in the above verse is Awliya (the plural of Wali)and this doesn't really mean friend in the sense English speakers would understand it. It better translates as protectors. For example when a Muslim woman gets married she would have a Wali who is usually her father - friend just doesnt fit.

hey, thanks brother. i didn't know that. well thats probably because i don't know arabic. but thanks anyway, i will remember that. inshallah.

 

[Alla Prima]

yes. so thats exactly what i said.

if my father was not a muslim, he would say to me to leave islam if i converted to it.

so if i took my fathers word then i'm clearly a wrong doer, since my father isn't interested in islam (faith) but rather in disbelief, and i should be taking friends those who are believers, over my father (ie. take their word over my fathers)

is it clear in this way or is it not still?

Ahh but that's not what it said. Merely having a disbliever as a friend makes you a wrong doer.

 

[Gharib]

Allah is indeed worthy of contempt and Muslims who worship him pity.

what does contempt mean?

 

[.lava]

The problem is this 'defense' is not specifically defined so that merely rejecting Islam can be interpreted as an attack warranting a defense.

yes, it is specificly defined in 4:90 so let me remind you dear Alla Prima;

4:90 Except those who seek refuge with a people between whom and you there is a covenant, or (those who) come unto you because their hearts forbid them to make war on you or make war on their own folk. Had Allah willed He could have given them power over you so that assuredly they would have fought you. So, if they hold aloof from you and wage not war against you and offer you peace, Allah alloweth you no way against them.

.

 

[Gharib]

Ahh but that's not what it said. Merely having a disbliever as a friend makes you a wrong doer.

yes it does, if i chose them over a muslims.

 

[Judgment]

no, we are not commanded to kill people because they are non-Muslims. we are commanded to do that when they attack our nations, our people to kill and to destroy. that is called self defense.

4:89 They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper

4:90 Except those who seek refuge with a people between whom and you there is a covenant, or (those who) come unto you because their hearts forbid them to make war on you or make war on their own folk. Had Allah willed He could have given them power over you so that assuredly they would have fought you. So, if they hold aloof from you and wage not war against you and offer you peace, Allah alloweth you no way against them.

it is our duty to fight back if we were attacked. but not against who do not fight us. is there anything unclear to you now?

.

I understand Lava. But... it says here to fight against those that do not believe and do not follow Islam. It says nothing about being attacked.

009.029
Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.