Apostates of Islam

[Alla Prima]

did you think of that all by yourself, thats impressive. or is it

Didn't mean to disturb you from your sleep. Oh wait... I didn't.

 

[.lava]

I really have to disagree as your definition here is that of the Murjiah. A persons Islam is not simply based on belief as you claim but actions also. Islam itself means submission which suggests the carrying out of proscribed acts. Some of these acts if ignored put one out of the fold of Islam even if they believe the 3 points you listed above. I will give two examples which I hope will make my point clear.

The first is that of Abu Talib, the uncle of the Prophet. When he was on his death bed the Prophet kept urging him to say La Ilah Il Allah. Abu Talib admitted that he believed the message but out of pride and fear that the Quraish would say he was weak and changed his religion on his death bed he refused and so dies a kaffir. Now if we went by the 3 points you gave then he would be a Muslim which is not the case. This also happened for other Quraish who admitted they knew the Prophet was correct yet they didnt become Muslim out of pride.

The second example is that of Satan. Satan believes there is only one God, that the Quran is the word of God and the Muhammad is the Prophet of God. He knows this but just chooses to rebel against it. So it should be clear that your definition cannot be correct in that it would conclude that Satan is a Muslim.

thanks for this. i was not trying to write basics of Islam all together. but you're right. i could be misunderstood.

How did the Sunni leave the Quran and who remained with it? I pointed out before that if Islam breaks into sects then this doesnt condemn them all because one would have stayed on the correct path. Sunni is just a word used to differentiate those who remained on the path of the Prophet from those who split away. The Prophet(SAW) said that Islam would split into 73 sects and 72 of them would go to hell. So the conclusion is that one sect won't.

Lets look at the Shia-Sunni split. The Shia decided to remove itself from the main body of Muslims. The Sunni opposed this and called for unity however the Shia broke away anyway. This split thus created two sections of Islam, but as the Sunni tried to avoid this and never changed their beliefs then how does this condemn them for being made into a section against their will?

As Islam is split then we all belong to a sect despite the fact that some may deny this. What sect is defined by your beliefs. Sometimes it is necessary to talk about them by name as to fail to do so would cause great confussion. Now if we denied that there are any sects we could say:

Islam recognises Abu Bakr as the first Caliph
and
Islam says Abu Bakr was an usurper who stole the Caliphate and he cursed and destined for hell.

Now if we said that it would seem we are saying the opposite which we would be. So it is necessary for clarity to say the Sunni believe the first and the Shia the second.

according to what i know, dear AbuKhalid, one should wish to reach God to be on the right path. there are Sunni people who wish to reach God and there are Shia people who wish to reach God. in every section, in every nation there are people who wish to reach God. that one section that would be saved are those who wish to reach God from everywhere.

i am Turkish and many people would believe i am Sunni. but i would refuse to call myself Sunni cos i know what i am, i am a Muslim. callling myself Sunni is like calling myself a white human being, i rather call myself just human. if it makes you happy to call yourself Sunni, i do not have problem with that. but this kind of names do not unite people. it puts a distance between other Muslims who was not born as Sunni. it is not me who rejects sections it is Allah. every section thinks they are the ones who would be saved. well, maybe you know what sections believe better than i do but i have no doubt about verses. they are very clear. i hope someday every section abandon their wrong doings and we all become one. for that, we need Mahdi (PBUH). no ordinary man can unite millions of people. i can't. but i do what i can and i do not call myself anything but Muslim. so i follow Qur'an and sunnah of The last Prophet SAW. i believe there are people like me among both Sunni and Shia or other sections.

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[AbuKhalid]

.lava in general I agree with you and I only refer to myself as a Muslim but sometimes for the sake of discussion it is necessary to use these labels. Look at my above post. If I took the words Shia and Sunni out of it then it wouldn't make sense.

I also think that if we see something wrong with a group then we must speak against it and it is our duty to do so. Many Shia call Abu Bakr and Umar Kaffirs, they worship Ali and they put some of the attributes of Allah onto their Imams. This is shirk. To remain quiet when you know of this is not the correct way as we are required as Muslims to practice Hisbah.

The Prophet (SAW) said:

“Whoever of you sees an evil action, let him change it with his hand [by taking action], and if he cannot, then with his tongue [by speaking out], and if he cannot, then with his heart [by feeling that it is wrong] – and that is the weakest of faith.”
(Reported by Muslim in his Saheeh, 1/69).

 

[Judgment]

i am not trying to interpret because i do not see anything that needs that. i tried to give you examples from my life so by that you might have a point of view. i have friends who happen to be disbelievers. i do not see them very often because what we share is not that much. but they are not enemies.

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I understand. Of course we become friends and hang out with others that have some of the same interests. My concerns come from reading scripture that specifically tell you not to become friends with those simply because they do not believe in a given religion. You could still enjoy going out to eat, going to movies, just talking... doing any number of things together that do not infringe on each others religious beliefs.

This scripture states you are a wrong-doer simply for being friends. The verse you used yesterday to counter stated to walk away if your religion is being mocked. The two verses are from the same book as you say - but - one does not counter the other - the situations are different.

009.023O ye who believe! Choose not your fathers nor your brethren for friends if they take pleasure in disbelief rather than faith. Whoso of you taketh them for friends, such are wrong-doers.

I also have concerns over scripture such as this - this is stating that Christians and Jews are perverse - not because of war - but - because of their very beliefs. Allah fights against them - such words do not lead to friendships with other religions.

009.030 And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!

 

[Judgment]

Then they continue to be fought. They either become Muslims or pay Jiziyah.

Then - that is a problem. Other verses state that if Peace is sought Peace will be given. It's not that simple - Now the rules have been given - become Muslim or Pay a tax or you will be 'fought'.

 

[AbuKhalid]

I understand. Of course we become friends and hang out with others that have some of the same interests. My concerns come from reading scripture that specifically tell you not to become friends with those simply because they do not believe in a given religion. You could still enjoy going out to eat, going to movies, just talking... doing any number of things together that do not infringe on each others religious beliefs.

This scripture states you are a wrong-doer simply for being friends. The verse you used yesterday to counter stated to walk away if your religion is being mocked. The two verses are from the same book as you say - but - one does not counter the other - the situations are different.

009.023O ye who believe! Choose not your fathers nor your brethren for friends if they take pleasure in disbelief rather than faith. Whoso of you taketh them for friends, such are wrong-doers.

I also have concerns over scripture such as this - this is stating that Christians and Jews are perverse - not because of war - but - because of their very beliefs. Allah fights against them - such words do not lead to friendships with other religions.

009.030 And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!

Judgement if you refer back to post 514 you will see I have clarified the verse on friends.

The second verse refers to their perverse beliefs.

 

[.lava]

The Islam I and many many non-Muslims clearly see should be all our enemy not just mine. All 1.3 billion Muslims should stand up and demand a better Islam. Stop being brainwashed and open your eyes to the tyranny of Islam. It's your religion not mine. You do something about it. Don't point your finger at me. Point it at Islam. Islam's the problem not me. Fix it. All you and almost every Muslim I talk to say the same thing. Islam is perfect. Well if it was so perfect we wouldn't have all these problems in the world caused by Muslims who follow the so called perfect religion. Any time Islam rubs up against anything non-Islamic there's friction. The problem is Islam not me or the world. Wake up.

i am awake, that would be great to be able to write while i am asleep but for now i lose conscious during my sleep.

look, Alla Prima, i get it. i see why you react, i just think how you put yourself in action is not useful enough. you are targeting the only thing that could make things better for Muslims and that is Islam. if Muslims are doing wrongs it is because they left Qur'an. there are things to be fixed, true, but it is going to be done according to Qur'an, not according to what Western believes or thinks or wants. you deny One God, one creator idea all together. so maybe there are some points that we would never agree and we do not need to. but i and other Muslims we believe in God. we believe Mohammad (PBUH) was his messenger. that is not going to change. we Muslims would not become better people if we changed what we believe in, because the real enemy here is not knowledge of Qur'an, it is ignorance of men. so don't expect us to abandon Islam. i understand other expectations. many Muslims i know would understand too. but if you told them we must fight against Islam, they would never agree with you even though they are against many things that you are against too.

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[.lava]

.lava in general I agree with you and I only refer to myself as a Muslim but sometimes for the sake of discussion it is necessary to use these labels. Look at my above post. If I took the words Shia and Sunni out of it then it wouldn't make sense.

I also think that if we see something wrong with a group then we must speak against it and it is our duty to do so. Many Shia call Abu Bakr and Umar Kaffirs, they worship Ali and they put some of the attributes of Allah onto their Imams. This is shirk. To remain quiet when you know of this is not the correct way as we are required as Muslims to practice Hisbah.

The Prophet (SAW) said:

“Whoever of you sees an evil action, let him change it with his hand [by taking action], and if he cannot, then with his tongue [by speaking out], and if he cannot, then with his heart [by feeling that it is wrong] – and that is the weakest of faith.”
(Reported by Muslim in his Saheeh, 1/69).

i get that. i know someone people take Ali as Prophet. that is just weird. i did not know there were Muslims who call Abu Bakr kaffir, that is too weird. specailly those four Caliphs, the things i know about them make me cry. that is just so sad if Muslims calling any of them kaffir. do you know this story? i've just remembered - a story i like very much. Mohammad (PBUH) and i guess Umar walking on the street. they meet a guy, a disbeliever and this guy looks at Mohammad (PBUH) and says "ya Muhammad, you are the ugliest man i'd ever seen." Umar gets angry but Muhammad (PBUH) stops him. later Umar wonders and asks him "to me you are the most beautiful man i'd ever seen. how come he sees you as the ugliest?" Mohammad (PBUH) says that he is just a mirror. so who knows, maybe those who call Abu Bakr kaffir, maybe, in fact judging themselves without knowing.

anyways, what was i saying? in every section there are people who's in the path of Irshad and in the path of Gayy. same for every section, every belief, every nation. being a Sunni would not put someone directly onto path of Irshad. the only path that leads Allah is one. it is not called Sunni path or Shia path. it is Sirati Mustakiim. but yes, i do agree there are bidats, those beliefs added to religion is shirk. but are all the Sunni people on the right path just for simply being Sunni?

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[Judgment]

AbuKhalid: Judgement if you refer back to post 514 you will see I have clarified the verse on friends.

I am using Pickthal's translation for that verse.

What about these other verses ?
005.051
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.
PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.
SHAKIR: O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.

003.118
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! Take not into your intimacy those outside your ranks: They will not fail to corrupt you. They only desire your ruin: Rank hatred has already appeared from their mouths: What their hearts conceal is far worse. We have made plain to you the Signs, if ye have wisdom.
PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! Take not for intimates others than your own folk, who would spare no pains to ruin you; they love to hamper you. Hatred is revealed by (the utterance of) their mouths, but that which their breasts hide is greater. We have made plain for you the revelations if ye will understand.
SHAKIR: O you who believe! do not take for intimate friends from among others than your own people; they do not fall short of inflicting loss upon you; they love what distresses you; vehement hatred has already appeared from out of their mouths, and what their breasts conceal is greater still; indeed, We have made the communications clear to you, if you will understand.

AbuKhalid: The second verse refers to their perverse beliefs

That is my point. Allah mocks their beliefs - but when the same is done unto him - he is not happy.

 

[keithnurse]

.lava in general I agree with you and I only refer to myself as a Muslim but sometimes for the sake of discussion it is necessary to use these labels. Look at my above post. If I took the words Shia and Sunni out of it then it wouldn't make sense.

I also think that if we see something wrong with a group then we must speak against it and it is our duty to do so. Many Shia call Abu Bakr and Umar Kaffirs, they worship Ali and they put some of the attributes of Allah onto their Imams. This is shirk. To remain quiet when you know of this is not the correct way as we are required as Muslims to practice Hisbah.

The Prophet (SAW) said:

“Whoever of you sees an evil action, let him change it with his hand [by taking action], and if he cannot, then with his tongue [by speaking out], and if he cannot, then with his heart [by feeling that it is wrong] – and that is the weakest of faith.”
(Reported by Muslim in his Saheeh, 1/69).

I saw on tv awhile back a short clip of an Iranian Shia woman during a major Shia festival. She said she was having money problems and prayed to Hussein for an end to her financial problem. Soon her financial problems disappeared.

 

[kai]

I saw on tv awhile back a short clip of an Iranian Shia woman during a major Shia festival. She said she was having money problems and prayed to Hussein for an end to her financial problem. Soon her financial problems disappeared.

maybe i should pray to Hussein too and make my money problems go away.

 

[.lava]

maybe i should pray to Hussein too and make my money problems go away.

so you have money problems huh? more money brings more needs, Kai.

well, that woman is strange praying a human being for help.

.

 

[kai]

so you have money problems huh? more money brings more needs, Kai.

well, that woman is strange praying a human being for help.

.

very true Lava money doesnt make me happy, but it sure takes the rough edges off of life.

I think Shia beleive in intercession.

 

[England my lionheart]

Back to business folks,this from the Apostacy of Azam Kamguian,you can catch the whole story The Fate of Infidels and Apostates under Islam | International Humanist and Ethical Union


In a feeble attempt to disguise the Islamic attitude to apostasy, apologists often quote the Koranic verse: "There shall be no compulsion in religion". For a Muslim wishing to leave Islam this is simply not true. In Yemen it's punishable by death as it is in Iran, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan under the Taliban and other Islamic states. The most famous incidence of Apostasy was in 1989 when Ayatollah Khomeini announced a fatwa, or death sentence against Salman Rushdie for his alleged apostasy in writing "The Satanic Verses". In a similar vein in Iran in July 1998 a man was executed for allegedly converting a Muslim woman to the Baha'i faith, this was even though the woman claimed that her mother was Baha'i and that she was raised according to that faith. Freedom House's Centre for Religious Freedom recently protested the forthcoming trial, before a Sharia court of Islamic law, of Hamid Pourmand, the 47 year old lay leader of a small Assemblies of God church in the southern port city of Bandar-i-Bushehr. Pourmand, a convert from Islam, is facing charges of apostasy from Islam and proselytising Muslims, both capital offences in Iran. The government of Iran puts someone on trial for his life solely for his religious belief. The state's criminalisation of apostasy is always subject to political manipulation and indicates an absolute negation of individual rights and freedom. Iran applies an extremist interpretation of Shiite Islamic law or Sharia, which harshly represses the free expression of belief, including religious conversion by Muslims. Iran's Sharia courts view non-Muslims as second-class citizens, whose testimony is given less weight than Muslims, and sometimes even as non-persons, without any legal protections.

 

[England my lionheart]

Having established that the Ahadiths concerning Apostacy plainly call for the death of an Apostate (Except Women,the easy life of imprisonment for them) and that these executions and imprisonments are fact,isn't it time for reformation of Islam.
In his thread,Proof of God has asked that Muslims go down the road of Quran only and that Muslims as a whole must discard the Ahadith and Sunna to stop these Medaeval practices happening.
Obviously i'm a non believer so i cannot think the same way as a Muslim, but i know that i would have a rather large problem with the Ahadiths,i can clearly see what they say and i have made sure they are Sahih and are very widley accepted yet there are some in denial and are apt to Cherry pick which non believers are often accused of.
The Quran at it's inception was supposed to be the complete work,the one and only book a Muslim will ever need,what on Earth went wrong,the Ahadith and Sunna are not a plus for Islam,the Ahadiths for example have some terrible things in them that although not out of place 1400 years ago are hopelessly out of place in this day and age.

 

[England my lionheart]

This from Islam on line: IslamOnline Network | Islamic News, Articles, Fatwas and Business - The reasons for capital punishment in Islam.

 

[Alla Prima]

very true Lava money doesnt make me happy, but it sure takes the rough edges off of life.

I think Shia beleive in intercession.

Money would make me more happy.

 

[Alla Prima]

i am awake, that would be great to be able to write while i am asleep but for now i lose conscious during my sleep.

look, Alla Prima, i get it. i see why you react, i just think how you put yourself in action is not useful enough. you are targeting the only thing that could make things better for Muslims and that is Islam.

BUt what do I target in Islam? Compassion? No. Love? No. Muslims? No. What do I go after? Do you know?

if Muslims are doing wrongs it is because they left Qur'an.

There is more to Islam than the Koran. If the Koran is all there is to Islam then throw out the Ahadith and the biographies of Muhammad. Burn them all. Then get rid of the hateful verses in the Koran.

there are things to be fixed, true, but it is going to be done according to Qur'an, not according to what Western believes or thinks or wants.

Look, you came into our world. Muslims immigrated to our world not the other way around. We have every right and a duty to scrutinize and criticize your ideology. Without us pushing you you'd never do one thing to change islam. You've had 1400 years to change Islam and you've done nothing.

you deny One God, one creator idea all together. so maybe there are some points that we would never agree and we do not need to. but i and other Muslims we believe in God. we believe Mohammad (PBUH) was his messenger. that is not going to change.

I have no problem with that. Rock on.

we Muslims would not become better people if we changed what we believe in, because the real enemy here is not knowledge of Qur'an, it is ignorance of men.

This is where we disagree. True the enemy is within us all but it is the teachings of Islam that do almost nothing to diminish or confront this enemy and lots of things to encourage it's growth.

so don't expect us to abandon Islam.

Some will and I believe this is a good thing.

i understand other expectations. many Muslims i know would understand too. but if you told them we must fight against Islam, they would never agree with you even though they are against many things that you are against too.

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Fight against the poison within Islam. To do this you must first recognize the poison. This takes wisdom and courage.

 

[.lava]

There is more to Islam than the Koran. If the Koran is all there is to Islam then throw out the Ahadith and the biographies of Muhammad. Burn them all. Then get rid of the hateful verses in the Koran.

Qur'an is the only source that all Muslims have in common.

Look, you came into our world. Muslims immigrated to our world not the other way around. We have every right and a duty to scrutinize and criticize your ideology. Without us pushing you you'd never do one thing to change islam. You've had 1400 years to change Islam and you've done nothing.

which world is that? i do not even wish to immigrate anywhere. i love my nation. it is you Alla Prima, you see Muslim individuals as one type person. if you are mistaken my point then i should make my point again. i am not willing to change Islam because i do not see anything wrong in Islam. i see wrongs in practices and those wrongs are not done because of verses of Qur'an.

This is where we disagree. True the enemy is within us all but it is the teachings of Islam that do almost nothing to diminish or confront this enemy and lots of things to encourage it's growth.

if you target Islam the religion, you're going to lose. does not matter even if same crulty and inhumane actions disturb both of us, you won't find people like me on your side. EVER. as a non-Muslim it is your right to ask Muslims for verses of Qur'an to prove their point. but many non-Muslims do not do that. perhabs you don't care if hadiths match Qur'an or not and prhabs some non-Muslims are happy with scholars that approve stoning people to death and some other "killing" stuff, for some reason those scholars you hate and you agree. i find it funny and tragic.

Fight against the poison within Islam. To do this you must first recognize the poison. This takes wisdom and courage.

poison is what people added to original religion. Islam never tells us to break peace. all those verses that you find cruel are verses of war. i dislike war too but there is war. war is part of reality and most of people would not like to see people kill each other but hey! it is all non-Muslim nations, non-Muslim firms that sell guns. it is non-Muslims who make money out of this war thingy. you say we came into your world as immigrations but look at Iraq. it is non-Muslims who came into our world, above all they did not come as tourists or immigrates, they came as army with guns in their hands. if Muslims did the same, if Muslims came to USA with army, with guns and if it was Muslims who caused civil war in your nation and caused millions of death, then you would mean something. but it is other way around. and please don't tell me Americans are in Iraq to educate them or they bring democracy and peace. they are there to take oil and they are not willing to see a nation that's ruled by its own people. they just want Iraq to be a little base of America within Middle East. it is not Muslims ideology, it is American ideology that give them that idea. in return, if you find Muslims figthing agaist this, then do not be surprised Alla Prima. they have all the rights not to want a foreign army on their own land.

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[Alla Prima]

i am not willing to change Islam because i do not see anything wrong in Islam.

Then there is no hope.