Are Atheists just close minded Agnostics?

[Reverend Rick]

But setting that aside, there is nothing about atheism that suggest a closed mind, I am willing to be wrong about a god, but the only thing that will change my mind is evidence.

Your waiting on something that will not happen IMHO.

 

[waitasec]

Your waiting on something that will not happen IMHO.

indeed.

 

[idav]

That could be. A Christian and Islamist having had a similar "spiritual" experience will interpret it in a manner supportive of their beliefs.

But that is the kind of bias everyone has anyway. A person who is not religious will interpret the same experience as delusions or find another means to discount the experience.

People generally do believe they have sufficient cause to support their belief. Though you or I may not agree with them.

The problem is in trying to get others to accept you have sufficient cause for your belief. And, why it is so important to some to do so.

True, confirmation bias is a big issue. We tend to see evidence in light of how we already view the world.

 

[Reverend Rick]

so why would an uninformed decision be more vital than an informed one?

I don't know, I did not make the rules.

and my opinion is that this god you are describing is insecure and not worthy of any of my time or energy...

That is your decision. Do you believe it is an open minded decision? I have already admitted I have a closed mind.

 

[riley2112]

I'm saying if you could make an informed decision there would be no faith involved.

I have an opinion and I believe I am right.

I believe God is a jealous, vengeful God that should be feared. I believe God is vain and wants you to worship him and display a leap of faith without any proof.

I think he enjoys extracting vengence on people who want to challenge him or out think him.

do you really have those belief about God? I belief and worship God, But I am not sure I would worship A God like you describe. Fear him Yes but worship him. Why?

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Theists and Atheists alike have closed minds with few exceptions. The only open minded position is Agnostic.

Hi, Rick. I think you're putting yourself into an awkward position with such a claim. It would be like me claiming that all Christians believe that Jesus is God. It means that I have to deny the Christianity of JWs, for example, along with many of the early Christians who lived before the Nicean Council (or whichever Council asserted the divinity of Jesus.)

I'd rather not deny that JWs are Christians. I don't want to make a rigid definition of 'Christian' and then sort people out depending on how they fit my own definition. I prefer to accept as a Christian virtually anyone who sincerely calls himself a Christian. Then I study the Christians and decide what they tend to believe.

I've known hundreds of people who call themselves atheists, many of them up close and personal. I've had detailed theological discussions with them. Most of those folks readily state that if they encounter good evidence of God, they'll believe in God. They're open-minded. (Almost every atheist I've met, by the way, also claims to be simultaneously an agnostic.)

So I'm curious if you would deny that these open-minded guys are actually atheists?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Bad hypothetical IMHO.

If you take away the statement, "he is right here". I'll bite.

The bowls may be in the closet and the dog may be a breed that does not shed. There may be pictures, but they are not available. The dog may be gone at the groomers.

You looked in the closet. You've thought about all these doubts, and every one that you have, you've investigated and found no evidence that points to a dog.

What I can say is, I doubt he has a dog. I have seen no sign of a dog. He may clean up after the dog becasue he has OCD.

Sure... to a point. Even the most compulsive person would miss some trace of the dog (since not all evidence of a dog has anything to do with cleanliness), and if Bob's house is a horrible (but dog-free) mess, you could probably deduce that the reason for the absence of dog evidence isn't that he's a neat freak.

Here's my point: in the case of a guy claiming to have a dog, there's probably some point at which - assuming you cared enough to investigate thoroughly - where you would satisfy yourself just by lack of evidence alone that the claimed dog doesn't exist. IMO, anyone who doesn't have such a point somewhere isn't that reasonable, logical or open-minded a thinker.

And that's with a dog: something we know can exist. If we repeated the exercise with someone who claimed to have a pet dragon - which I'd say is a better analogy for claims of God - then we'd probably reach the point much earlier where we can dismiss the claim as likely false.

IMO, open-mindedness means being willing to be led where the evidence leads. There are two ways that a person can reject this sort of open-mindedness: first, by taking a conclusion that wasn't suggested by the evidence, or second, by refusing to follow when the evidence does lead in one particular direction.

IMO, at a certain point, refusing to accept a conclusion counts as closed-mindedness, not open-mindedness.

Now... it's an exercise for the class to decide whether agnostics fit into this category or not. In my experience, I see a mix: I've met plenty of agnostics who have taken their position based on a genuine, sincere, honestly-derived examination of the facts at hand, and others who, IMO, obstinately and pig-headedly, refuse to budge from their seat on the fence even when shown good reason to get off it.

The first category of agnostics I'd consider open-minded. The second category I wouldn't.

In general, I'd say that anyone who's views could be expressed as "you'll never convince me of _______, no matter what evidence you show me!" doesn't qualify as open-minded, and I have met plenty of agnostics for whom this would apply.

No one says, "Jesus is sitting on the couch right next to me".

Well... kinda. I've been told by plenty of theists that God is everywhere, and at every Catholic mass I've been to, they've rung a set of chimes at a certain point during the Eucharistic ritual to denote when the "real presence" of Christ has arrived.

Lack of belief is different than non-belief. One is stronger than the other.

If we where in a court of law, I would have to conclude Bob has no dog beyond a reasonable doubt.

An agnostic has reasonable doubt. An Atheist believes there is no God beyond a reasonable doubt.

You're talking about criminal court. In civil court, you'd only have to conclude that he doesn't have a dog on a preponderance of the evidence... IOW, that it's more likely that he doesn't have a dog than that he does.

Which is the better standard when we're talking about claims that we encounter in our daily life: the standard of the civil court or the criminal court?

To put it another way... which standard do you apply when a customer with an unpaid bill tells you "the cheque's in the mail" for the tenth time and you're deciding whether to send him to collections?

 

[Reverend Rick]

Hi, Rick. I think you're putting yourself into an awkward position with such a claim. It would be like me claiming that all Christians believe that Jesus is God. It means that I have to deny the Christianity of JWs, for example, along with many of the early Christians who lived before the Nicean Council (or whichever Council asserted the divinity of Jesus.)

I'd rather not deny that JWs are Christians. I don't want to make a rigid definition of 'Christian' and then sort people out depending on how they fit my own definition. I prefer to accept as a Christian virtually anyone who sincerely calls himself a Christian. Then I study the Christians and decide what they tend to believe.

I've known hundreds of people who call themselves atheists, many of them up close and personal. I've had detailed theological discussions with them. Most of those folks readily state that if they encounter good evidence of God, they'll believe in God. They're open-minded. (Almost every atheist I've met, by the way, also claims to be simultaneously an agnostic.)

So I'm curious if you would deny that these open-minded guys are actually atheists?

But we are talking about Theists not just Christians. I did not intend to leave anyone out.

 

[Tristesse]

Your waiting on something that will not happen IMHO.

Then what reason should I believe? And if there is no reason, then my atheism is justified, and calling atheists closed minded is absurd, when you've admitted that there is no evidence. The only time to believe a claim is when there is evidence to justify the claim, otherwise you're prone to believing all kinds of non-sense.

 

[Nakosis]

And that's with a dog: something we know can exist. If we repeated the exercise with someone who claimed to have a pet dragon - which I'd say is a better analogy for claims of God - then we'd probably reach the point much earlier where we can dismiss the claim as likely false.

Except the person that has the pet dragon still has to feed it and clean up after it. They have to deal with the truth according to their experience of it. They maybe insane but what choice do they have?

To put it another way... which standard do you apply when a customer with an unpaid bill tells you "the cheque's in the mail" for the tenth time and you're deciding whether to send him to collections?

The check maybe in the mail and there is a reason it's not getting to you. Maybe they keep putting the wrong address. maybe the machine that does the sorting is broken.

Still you have to deal with the reality that is apparent to you. You make the reasonable choice regardless of what's true. Send them to collections. Who can blame you for that?

 

[Reverend Rick]

do you really have those belief about God? I belief and worship God, But I am not sure I would worship A God like you describe. Fear him Yes but worship him. Why?

Vengence is mine said the Lord

Judge not lest ye be judged with the same measure.

Have no other Gods before me.

Noah's flood

The red sea

Sodom and ........

Need I go on? I was raised in a God fearing home.

 

[Nakosis]

But we are talking about Theists not just Christians. I did not intend to leave anyone out.

What do you expect of the open minded? A willingness to accept evidence of a truth they don't believe in?

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Closed minded is anyone not willing to accept the possible truth of my beliefs regardless of how insane they are...

That's how I'd define it. Doesn't mean anyone has to listen to me.:areyoucra

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Closed minded is anyone not willing to accept the possible truth of my beliefs regardless of how insane they are...

That's how I'd define it. Doesn't mean anyone has to listen to me.:areyoucra

But hypothetically, if your beliefs really are insane (I don't know if they are, but it doesn't really matter in the hypothetical), then when their insanity became apparent, it would be closed-minded to disregard this.

 

[Willamena]

Open your mind waitasec, think outside the box.

If faith is required to be with God, why would he allow any proof for his existance assuming God does really exist?

The truth is we don't know for sure. Pretending someone has an open mind is dishonest. Theists and Atheists alike have closed minds with few exceptions.

The only open minded position is Agnostic.

Must faith be a requirement to be with God?

 

[idav]

What do you expect of the open minded? A willingness to accept evidence of a truth they don't believe in?

==============================================
Closed minded is anyone not willing to accept the possible truth of my beliefs regardless of how insane they are...

That's how I'd define it. Doesn't mean anyone has to listen to me.:areyoucra

To me being open minded means to actually consider other views while acknowledging the possibility of being wrong.

 

[Reverend Rick]

I don't expect people to understand my close minded beliefs. They where not raised like I was. They did not attend fire and brimstone sermons. They did not get their butt beat and told children should be seen but not heard. They did not get told, don't do as I do do as I say.

Actually this is my understanding of God. Do as he says or he will deal with you like no other.

I got away from Theism and studied magick. Some of it was Kabalah. The one thing I learned was to be all powerful, you must walk the rasor thin line between light and dark, evil and good. Balance is the key.

Think about it, Jesus was the good aspect while God was vengeful. God threw Adam and Eve out of the garden of Eden.

Would someone please tell me a story about God in the old testament where someone did not recieve judgement or vengence or endure hardships.

I believe God is all things good and bad. He has the potential for all things I am told.

Too many people sugar coat religion IMHO.

This thread in no way should be taken as P-tizing. Your experience with religion may vary.

 

[Nakosis]

But hypothetically, if your beliefs really are insane (I don't know if they are, but it doesn't really matter in the hypothetical), then when their insanity became apparent, it would be closed-minded to disregard this.

Sure, you have to deal with what is apparently true for you. Unfortunately my own insanity may not be so apparent to myself.

Anyway that comment was to kind of show how arbitrary this idea of open mindedness is.

If someone calls you closed minded, I wouldn't worry about it. It's how they see it. Carries no more weight then that IMO.

 

[Tristesse]

I don't expect people to understand my close minded beliefs. They where not raised like I was. They did not attend fire and brimstone sermons. They did not get their butt beat and told children should be seen but not heard. They did not get told, don't do as I do do as I say.

Actually this is my understanding of God. Do as he says or he will deal with you like no other.

I got away from Theism and studied magick. Some of it was Kabalah. The one thing I learned was to be all powerful, you must walk the rasor thin line between light and dark, evil and good. Balance is the key.

Think about it, Jesus was the good aspect while God was vengeful. God threw Adam and Eve out of the garden of Eden.

Would someone please tell me a story about God in the old testament where someone did not recieve judgement or vengence or endure hardships.

I believe God is all things good and bad. He has the potential for all things I am told.

Too many people sugar coat religion IMHO.

This thread in no way should be taken as P-tizing. Your experience with religion may vary.

Just because you were raised this way, doesn't make any of it true. And truth is the only thing I'm concerned with.

 

[riley2112]

Just because you were raised this way, doesn't make any of it true. And truth is the only thing I'm concerned with.

as we all should be.

 

[Nakosis]

To me being open minded means to actually consider other views while acknowledging the possibility of being wrong.

Yes but how often do you accept the claims of an individual that are repeatedly shown to be wrong before deciding it's a waste of time to investigate their claims any further?

There have been scientific studies on things like prayer and, I don't know... speaking in tongues etc... Maybe we shouldn't get jaded but we do.

I think it reasonable to become closed minded regarding some claims. Someone might call me closed minded because of it. I don't care.

I try to be open to claims as it is reasonable to be open to them. Doesn't mean I have to be open minded to every claim.