Are Baha’u’llah’s prophecies coming true?

[rational experiences]

Humans claim. Think. Be a leader for humanity human.

So men as a human only remove any type of science talk is naturally loving kind caring.

So Baha'i teachings remove science talk.

The teachings for just humans on earth for humanitarian advice is real.

Ask any man why did you include science advice?

The reality science if man changed our brain mind. I didn't want to. I was forced to.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Yes. How do you demonstrate to someone who has no investment in whether you are right or wrong, that any given one of your beliefs, religious or secular, is not merely a product of your imagination?

I can only demonstrate. They can decide if it is true or false. But for them to realize it, they must be free from bias, and personal feelings.

 

[ppp]

I can only demonstrate.

I asked how.

But for them to realize it, they must be free from bias, and personal feelings.

Why? People have been convinced me of things that I was initially strongly biased again. Things against which I had emotional involvement. All it took was adequate evidence and a rational justifiction in support of their claims to sway me. If you have adequate evidence to support your claim, then I will be convinced. If you do not, then I won't. And I shouldn't be.

I think that people use "bias" as a bludgeon to blame others when they cannot sufficiently justify their own positions.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Okay, the bomb and Japan going ablaze. That's pretty specific. But we haven't arrived at the lessor peace yet. Those prophecies are in the past. So, there's more things that are going to happen. Which cities are prophesied to get bombed? What is going to happen in Ukraine? What will happen in the Islamic countries? What about China? What about Israel? What prophecies do Baha'is have that are still in the future?

The lesser peace is built after the calamities CG.

I have no idea how long we will go through these waves of.calamity.

One has to read what both Abdul'baha a d Shoghi Effendi offered. These are available in the Baha'i Library.

Regards Tony

 

[Tiberius]

Hi
yes Jesus prayed for unity, but it was not fulfilled as Christians divided into many sects and denominations. But this was to be fulfilled with Baha'u'llah because Baha'u'llah did not just pray for unity, but He revealed many scriptures how to achieve unity practically. Bahais who followed His teachings could successfully establish unity, as the Baha'i Faith is not divided into sects and denominations. So, this proves, Baha'u'llah fulfilled it.
But God does not force people, so, those who did not follow Baha'u'llah are still divided and still in great wars and conflicts.

So no one who is a Christian achieved unity in any degree at all?

Hate to burst your bubble, but they did.

 

[Tiberius]

I never said that the claim justifies the claim. In fact, over and over and over again I have said that the claim is separate from the evidence that supports the claim.

Then you can not use the works of Mr B (the claim) as evidence that the works of Mr B show he was divinely inspired.

Everyone in the world has already heard the gospel message and once we have heard that message we do not need to keep hearing it over and over and over and over again.

Ah, so we should stop saying it. But then new people are born, and then they'll never hear it. What to do, what to do...

I never said it does not matter. Baha'is are required to believe in Jesus and we believe He was a Savior, although not for the same reason Christians believe that. We don't believe Jesus saved is from the original sin of Adam and Eve because we don't believe they were real people who committed a sin. 30: ADAM AND EVE

Since Baha’is do not believe in original sin, there was no penalty to pay for that. Therein lies the difference between Christianity and the Baha’i Faith beliefs. Since we all have a higher noble spiritual nature and a lower selfish material nature (sinful nature) Jesus saved us from our lower material nature by giving us His teachings that, if followed, free us from the chains of bondage to our physical nature and the material world. The cross sacrifice was a symbol of detachment and self-denial, the example we are to follow. The remission of sins is the remission of our sinful nature that intervenes between us and God.

So you've got your own interpretation of different religion. Cool. I'm not convinced.

Jesus taught that we are to love one another but Jesus did not teach the unity of mankind. Unity of mankind would not have been possible 2000 years ago when Jesus walked the earth because the whole world had not even been discovered and people all over the world were certainly not connected, as we are now. Religion and Social Evolution

The human race needs more than the message that we are to love one another, that is old news. Baha'u'llah came to bring justice. "The best beloved of all things in My sight is Justice; turn not away therefrom if thou desirest Me, and neglect it not that I may confide in thee." The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 3-4

Justice means punishing actions or words that are wrong and upholding things that are good. This helps ensure that wrongs will be ended and rights will be upheld thereby leading to a safer society for everyone. It would seem sometimes that children have a keen internal sense of justice.
What is justice and why is it important? - Quora

We can see why justice is so important if we look at what is going on in the world today. Is love going to solve any of these problems? Sure, we need to love one another, but we need more than that. We need justice.

Jesus prayed that someday we may be one but Jesus did not teach the unity of mankind. That is a new message, the message of Baha'u'llah.

“The Revelation associated with the Faith of Jesus Christ focused attention primarily on the redemption of the individual and the molding of his conduct, and stressed, as its central theme, the necessity of inculcating a high standard of morality and discipline into man, as the fundamental unit in human society. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find any reference to the unity of nations or the unification of mankind as a whole. When Jesus spoke to those around Him, He addressed them primarily as individuals rather than as component parts of one universal, indivisible entity. The whole surface of the earth was as yet unexplored, and the organization of all its peoples and nations as one unit could, consequently, not be envisaged, how much less proclaimed or established.”
The Promised Day Is Come, p. 119

Yeah, I don't find your argument convincing. In my experience, ALL religions aim for a unity of all people - unity in that particular religion, of course. Once again, what Bahai is doing is nothing different to any other religion. Bahai is nothing special.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

So no one who is a Christian achieved unity in any degree at all?

Hate to burst your bubble, but they did.

If looking at it that way, even before Jesus there were unities among groups. A family and marriage is a form of unity. Even today, there is unity among ISIS. There is unity among Russians and BlaRus.

But are we talking about any kind of unity?
I was talking about unity among all Christians. They became divided. And some fought with other Christians.
Baha'u'llah created a way, that all Bahais are in unity. I mean they are not sects or denominations. This is the very first time in history that a Religion was not divided into sects.

 

[KWED]

Given those answers. We have really very little to discuss. That's OK, we see this world differently, I have very little patience for this world.

I wish for you well and happy, Regards Tony

With all due respect, you are posting on an open, public, religious debate forum. If you are not prepared to support your claims and address the points of others, what exactly are you doing here? Merely proselytising?

 

[KWED]

It is the fallacy of black and white thinking to say that the Bible must either be true or false.
I believe that some of it is true and some of it is false. There is a middle ground.

The Black-or-White Fallacy is the provision of only two alternatives in an argument when there are actually more options available. ... It's also sometimes called the Gray Fallacy, between black and white options, or the middle-ground fallacy, after a middle ground between two warring camps.
black and white fallacy examples in politics - nazwa.pl

So god is sometimes right and sometimes wrong?
Who decides when god is right or wrong?

 

[KWED]

Okay, the bomb and Japan going ablaze. That's pretty specific.

Note that Abdulbaha does not describe the atomic bomb. He talks about some vague unspecified force. HG Wells gave a far more accurate description of the atomic bomb in 1913, in "A World Set Free" (A bomb using the energy release of uranium, dropped from planes, leaving the battlefield contaminated by rays long after).

Also note Abdulbahah does not say that "Japan will go ablaze". It is Baha'i apologists claiming that this is what he meant by his vague statement. Standard disingenuous post hoc rationalisation. And bear in mind that Japan was constantly involved in wars during the latter part of the 19th and the early 20th century, sometimes with more powerful opponents, so even if he had said that Japan will be ablaze, it is hardly miraculous given that "a country ablaze" has long been a metaphor for being at war - and we know how the promoters of prophesies love the importance of metaphor.

 

[KWED]

The Quran tells us that there in no compulsion in religion. God does not force it upon us,

It also says "Worship me or I will torture you forever", which is obviously coercion by threat of violence.

If a mugger says "Give me your money or I will stab you", is it "free will" if you hand over your wallet? If you refuse and get knifed, do the police say "well, he did warn you".
It is nonsense to claim that the Quran does not use threats of violence to coerce people to submit.

 

[KWED]

For sure there is a truth. Only if one is unbiased and sincere can realize it. Whatever that truth might be.

And you are claiming that only Baha'is are unbiased and sincere?

 

[Sheldon]

Baha'u'llah did not come for science but to show us how to achieve peace and unity.

You'll forgive me, but it isn't going very well.

And whose fault is that?

I'd have thought the inference was obvious from the original claim? If a teacher has a poor record we don't generally blame the pupils.

 

[Sheldon]

That is a straw man.
I never said that all of the Bible is true.

So when you claimed to believe the bible is true, it was my fault for not realising you meant at least half of it was not true? That's almost as hilarious as your futile attempt to invoke a logical fallacy here, that you clearly haven't understood, but no it was not a straw man, merely an obvious inference from your claim. Ironically I never said you had claimed all the bible is true, so that was a straw man you created to avoid your previous error in poorly communicating what you meant, which has led to this ludicrous goal post shifting from "the bible is true" to at least half of it being jettisoned as fallible. Best of all is that this is to defend a claim you made that the bible directly contradicts.

 

[Sheldon]

Sheldon said: ↑
That's a no true Scotsman fallacy if ever there was one.

For sure there is a truth. Only if one is unbiased and sincere can realize it. Whatever that truth might be.

That's not what you claimed though, here is your original claim:

InvestigateTruth said: ↑
one who starts from a neutral position, unbiased, and fair, and investigate the signs, will see its truth eventually.

The inference is obvious, and just as obviously a no true Scotsman fallacy, that creates a subgroup for anyone who doesn't accept your beliefs as true, as not being neutral, but being biased, unfair, and not investigating the signs. It's an hilariously irrational assertion.

 

[Sheldon]

When someone clean his heart and mind from love and hate, and from wishful thinking, only then there is a chance to see truth.

Another no true Scotsman fallacy, all you are doing is irrationally creating a subgroup for people who don't share your beliefs, and labelling it negatively.

 

[Sheldon]

I can only demonstrate. They can decide if it is true or false. But for them to realize it, they must be free from bias, and personal feelings.

Sigh, each time you post you label anyone who doesn't share your beliefs as biased, it's a logical fallacy. You also failed to answer the question Policy asked, he asked how you demonstrate the truth of a claim about your religion. We also have other members of your religion stating on here that they subjectively interpret it's writings, so accusing others of bias without any evidence beyond them not sharing your beliefs, is pretty hilarious.

What objective evidence can you demonstrate that any deity exists, or is even possible? This should be well within your means, if your beliefs lack any bias.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

That's not what you claimed though, here is your original claim:



The inference is obvious, and just as obviously a no true Scotsman fallacy, that creates a subgroup for anyone who doesn't accept your beliefs as true, as not being neutral, but being biased, unfair, and not investigating the signs. It's an hilariously irrational assertion.

"Not being Biased" has nothing to do with being called Bahai, in my view.
I am saying to investigate truth, we need to be unbiased and free from wishful thinking, free from love and hate and fanaticism.

And that's not what I say from myself. That's what Baha'u'llah said. It is in the Book of certitude (aka Iqan)

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Sigh, each time you post you label anyone who doesn't share your beliefs as biased, it's a logical fallacy. You also failed to answer the question Policy asked, he asked how you demonstrate the truth of a claim about your religion. We also have other members of your religion stating on here that they subjectively interpret it's writings, so accusing others of bias without any evidence beyond them not sharing your beliefs, is pretty hilarious.

What objective evidence can you demonstrate that any deity exists, or is even possible? This should be well within your means, if your beliefs lack any bias.

I am just saying to investigate claim of Baha'u'llah, we must first make sure we are free from love or hate, bias, and fanaticism. If we are not unbiased we cannot claim we investigated Him fairly. The conclusion is to each individual. I cannot conclude for you, and you cannot conclude for me. But it is like a case, that needs a fair and accurate judgment, to see if Baha'u'llah's claim is true or not.

 

[Sheldon]

"Not being Biased" has nothing to do with being called Bahai, in my view.

Well that directly contradict the no true Scotsman fallacy you asserted earlier.

I am saying to investigate truth, we need to be unbiased and free from wishful thinking, free from love and hate and fanaticism.

Again this was not what you previously said.

And that's not what I say from myself. That's what Baha'u'llah said. It is in the Book of certitude (aka Iqan)

Well so what, a claim belief or idea stands on its own merits, regardless who said it, or what book it is in. Here is KWED's post that you responded to:

God enables messengers to reveal prophesies, but insists that they have to be so vague and tenuous that only people who already believe in those prophesies can actually see them?

one who starts from a neutral position, unbiased, and fair, and investigate the signs, will see its truth eventually.

The inference couldn't be clearer, people who are unbiased and fair and investigate signs will "eventually see the truth" and share your beliefs, so those that don't share your beliefs by inference must be biased, unfair, and not willing to investigate "signs". It is a textbook no true Scotsman fallacy.