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Are Blood Transfusions Really Life Saving?

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Can you explain to me how you can know what a child understands of death when death is so personal a concept, including what lies beyond death, if anything? No one can understand that concept the same. For me, death means a stage that is the go between for my next life. Can you prove I am wrong? Can you with 100% certainty prove that there is something beyond death? If you can, step up for that Nobel prize as no one has been able to do that as yet. and btw, a child suffering with cancer and its associated symptoms in no ways compares to a child who can be saved from death by a unit or two of PRBC. Your analogy is simply wrong.

"For me, death means a stage that is the go between for my next life."

For us, too! Hey, we have agreement! As Jehovah's Witnesses, we feel that that 'stage' is likened to sleep, as Jesus said about Lazarus in John 11:11-13. Lazarus only 'slept' for 4 days, before he was resurrected by Jesus. Most humans have been 'RIP'ing' for centuries, but "will" wake up, (future tense), according to John 5:28-29. Compare Ecclesiastes 9:5; Acts of the Apostles 24:15; Psalms 146:3-4; Acts of the Apostles 7:60; et.al.

".....with 100% certainty...."

Only what the Bible is really saying, (i.e., where it is in complete harmony with itself,) do we accept 100%!

"....a child who can be saved from death by a unit or two of PRBC."

One question we ask doctors, surgeons, and anesthesiologists treating critically ill patients -- since they, too, can order and administer a transfusion -- is "can you guarantee that this blood will save their life?" No one ever has. I've actually had, on three separate occasions, the doctors tell me, "I can guarantee they won't survive if they don't." But the patients still refused, and all three survived. And all recovered more quickly than the doctors' expectations. One of those was my aunt. That was 13 years ago. She is now 87 yrs.old!
 
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I agree with you Psycho. I cannot comprehend God sending a person to hell for getting a life saving procedure. Of course, I don't believe in hell so that tempers my views a bit. What I don't understand is a religion that believes that all life is sacred and some; such as Catholic lore, that believe that suicide is a sure way to this hell, would state that the refusal of blood to save that life is against what God would want for us. That, for me, makes no sense.

Jo, I sometime wonder if you bother to read my posts at all. We have no belief in hell. We have no fear of death, so our motivation is pure obedience out of love for our God and respect for his commands. Life IS sacred, but not sacred enough to compromise the laws of God to save it. (Matthew 16:25)
We believe that the life to come is the one worth saving. Blatantly breaking God's laws to save your life in this world will eliminate any possibility of being selected as a citizen in God's kingdom.

Refusal to take blood is not unreasonable as has been proven many times over by JW's.....Who says we die from refusing blood? Where are the stats on this? Who keeps stats on how many people die because, or in spite of having a blood transfusion? Refusal of blood is NOT putting life at risk.....ask these doctors who dare to prove that this is true. They have many techniques for preserving life without the need for blood.

Why is this so hard for some people to understand? o_O That makes no sense to me.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
LOL
it's a "never the twain shall meet" kind of mix up. LDS and JW's are polar opposites in their belief systems. The only thing we have in common is door knocking apparently.
I know that you'd just prefer to flat out ignore our similarities, but there are, in fact, a few, including the belief in an apostasy of the early Christian Church and the rejection of the Trinity and the creeds from which it originated.
 

Olinda

Member
@Deeje , thanks for your detailed reply. I hope my tone has not been too contentious; I'm unsure of my own worldview and am here to learn.

Yes, organ transplants were VERY dangerous and are still high risk. I'm sure they would not be performed unless the alternatives were worse.

You said: "I am grateful to my brothers for not rushing into this without due regard for its efficacy and compatibility with Bible principles."

Fair enough. But I doubt anyone rushes into a decision for organ transplant, or ever did. Reflection, weighing up options and gathering information are all important. But cautions for medical reasons are entirely different from forbidding an option on religious grounds. Which was what the WT Governing body did.

"As we have said many times now, we do not fear death, so making a fuss about dying is pointless if we are all going to die sooner or later anyway. We love life, but it is the life to come that is way more important to us than living in this poor excuse for an existence. If I could stop the world, I would want to get off. I hate what humans are doing to each other and to the planet itself. Dying would actually be a big relief for many. There are much worse things than dying."
I'm sincerely sorry you feel like this and devoutly hope your life becomes happier.

"God's law on blood has been around since the days of Noah. It remains unchanged to this day. Blood is sacred to God and he forbids its consumption in any manner. Christians are told to "abstain from blood" and to refrain from eating unbled meat. These two commands were part of a short list of "necessary things" required for all Christians. Both pertained to the consumption of blood. (Acts 15:28, 29) God doesn't change his mind on something this important to him.

Blood fractions are also relatively new on the scene. Research has shown us that many of these fractions are passed naturally from mother to child in the womb, despite the fact that their blood is often a completely different blood group and can be missing factors that the mother's blood possesses. (e.g. the RH factor)"


Agreed. But if you interpret 'abstain from' to apply to transfusions, then surely it must mean to 'abstain from' fractions also. Would it be ok to eat fractions of a black pudding?
Also the natural transfer of blood components to a baby in utero is not relevant. Otherwise you could argue for abortions (which I understand are also not permitted to jws) because miscarriages occur naturally.

"Since I am sure there will be many more who die in spite of receiving a blood transfusion, than those who die from refusing one"
You have said this many times and it is still not substantiated.

"I believe many doctors should be sued for damages for giving patients unnecessary blood transfusion, and putting them at risk for no good reason"
Then shouldn't the WT be sued when forbidding an organ transplant led to unnecessary death?
 
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Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
I know that you'd just prefer to flat out ignore our similarities, but there are, in fact, a few, including the belief in an apostasy of the early Christian Church and the rejection of the Trinity and the creeds from which it originated.

Thank you, Katzpur, for stating the beliefs we have in common! It's always beneficial to establish common ground. Take care.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I know that you'd just prefer to flat out ignore our similarities, but there are, in fact, a few, including the belief in an apostasy of the early Christian Church and the rejection of the Trinity and the creeds from which it originated.


We have aired our differences before Katzpur. It is fruitless trying to compare notes. We are polar opposites. We have each chosen our position spiritually speaking. The differences between us are not a small gap but a gaping chasm.

The definition of your "rejection of the trinity", when I have asked you previously, shows that your church does support the trinity, just perhaps not the way that others do. We do not accept that there are three gods in one 'head'.....we do not accept that there is any God but Jehovah. He is one God as the Jews believed. (Deut 6:4)

The apostasy that occurred in the early church was a complete departure from what Christ taught. I cannot see how the LDS church's teachings have a foundation in the Bible.

From Genesis to Revelation, we have no beliefs in common.

Scripture was written within a certain timeframe in the first century because the apostasy was already beginning when John wrote his last letters. I don't believe that anything written after the first century can be counted on as "inspired of God".
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
@Deeje , thanks for your detailed reply. I hope my tone has not been too contentious; I'm unsure of my own worldview and am here to learn.

Yes, organ transplants were VERY dangerous and are still high risk. I'm sure they would not be performed unless the alternatives were worse.

You said: "I am grateful to my brothers for not rushing into this without due regard for its efficacy and compatibility with Bible principles."

Fair enough. But I doubt anyone rushes into a decision for organ transplant, or ever did. Reflection, weighing up options and gathering information are all important. But cautions for medical reasons are entirely different from forbidding an option on religious grounds. Which was what the WT Governing body did.

No it was not the governing body who said we must not consume blood...it was God who said this. It is one of the most important commands in the Bible. Repeated down through thousands of years of history.

It is the opinion of the medical profession generally that blood is safe medicine...the specialist doctors who deal with this issue are now saying that blood is not as "safe" or "life saving" as it was once thought to be....What a difficult message to get across to indoctrinated medical people.....who are the brainwashed ones really? Who can't be told? o_O

"As we have said many times now, we do not fear death, so making a fuss about dying is pointless if we are all going to die sooner or later anyway. We love life, but it is the life to come that is way more important to us than living in this poor excuse for an existence. If I could stop the world, I would want to get off. I hate what humans are doing to each other and to the planet itself. Dying would actually be a big relief for many. There are much worse things than dying."
I'm sincerely sorry you feel like this and devoutly hope your life becomes happier.

I cannot be truly happy when the world is in such a mess. Feeling for suffering humanity will not often let me appreciate the beautiful surroundings in the peaceful place I happen to live. Politically, commercially and religiously, the world is spiraling out of control. No one can fix this mess but God. How can anyone be truly happy, knowing that others are starving and have no place to call home? :(

"God's law on blood has been around since the days of Noah. It remains unchanged to this day. Blood is sacred to God and he forbids its consumption in any manner. Christians are told to "abstain from blood" and to refrain from eating unbled meat. These two commands were part of a short list of "necessary things" required for all Christians. Both pertained to the consumption of blood. (Acts 15:28, 29) God doesn't change his mind on something this important to him.

Blood fractions are also relatively new on the scene. Research has shown us that many of these fractions are passed naturally from mother to child in the womb, despite the fact that their blood is often a completely different blood group and can be missing factors that the mother's blood possesses. (e.g. the RH factor)"


Agreed. But if you interpret 'abstain from' to apply to transfusions, then surely it must mean to 'abstain from' fractions also. Would it be ok to eat fractions of a black pudding?
Also the natural transfer of blood components to a baby in utero is not relevant. Otherwise you could argue for abortions (which I understand are also not permitted to jws) because miscarriages occur naturally.

"Fractions are derived from the four primary blood components—red cells, white cells, platelets, and plasma. For example, red cells contain the protein hemoglobin. Products developed from human or animal hemoglobin have been used to treat patients who have acute anemia or massive blood loss.
Plasma—which is 90 percent water—carries scores of hormones, inorganic salts, enzymes, and nutrients, including minerals and sugar. Plasma also carries clotting factors, antibodies to fight disease, and such proteins as albumin. If someone is exposed to a certain disease, doctors might prescribe injections of gamma globulin extracted from the plasma of people who already had immunity. White blood cells may be a source of interferons and interleukins, used to treat some viral infections and cancers.
Should Christians accept therapies incorporating blood fractions? The Bible does not give specific details, so each one must make his own conscientious decision before God."

This is our official stance on fractions. No one is to judge the conscience of another.

"Since I am sure there will be many more who die in spite of receiving a blood transfusion, than those who die from refusing one"
You have said this many times and it is still not substantiated.

The medical profession cannot substantiate that blood saved most of the people to whom it was administered. The findings in the OP suggest that people lived in spite of the transfusion rather than because of it. Our own experience demonstrates that doctors cannot say with any certainty who will live or die...blood or no blood. The majority of our brotherhood who were told that they would die without blood...didn't....and they recovered well and in record time. You do understand that this is by far our most common experience?

"I believe many doctors should be sued for damages for giving patients unnecessary blood transfusion, and putting them at risk for no good reason"
Then shouldn't the WT be sued when forbidding an organ transplant led to unnecessary death?

Jehovah's Witnesses respect the recommendations of our governing body and they have proven to be correct for the most part. We do not insist that others obey their direction, but we value their guidance and look forward to the restoration of life in the new world that we are awaiting. That is where the "real life" awaits all who are faithful and obedient to God's commands. (1 Tim 6:19)
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I think it necessary to bring this to your attention: you wrote, "They have a hope that would never be compromised by disobedience to God's commands." You meant it "would never be compromised by obedience to God's commands", right?

Um...no. I meant that the hope we have can never be compromised by disobedience to God's commands. How did you misread that? :shrug: LOL
Disobedience is the compromise that would lead us to lose our hope....
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Thank you, Katzpur, for stating the beliefs we have in common! It's always beneficial to establish common ground. Take care.
Wow! I'm so pleased to hear you say that! It's so unusual to hear a Jehovah's Witness take that approach. If this is really how you feel, I'm looking forward to talking to you more in the future.
 
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Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
We have aired our differences before Katzpur. It is fruitless trying to compare notes. We are polar opposites. We have each chosen our position spiritually speaking. The differences between us are not a small gap but a gaping chasm.
From where you stand, JayDee, there is a gaping chasm between the Jehovah's Witnesses and virtually everybody else on earth. Refusing to see anything of value in anyone else's beliefs, and refusing to put forth any effort whatsoever to understand other people's perspectives is simply counter-productive.

The definition of your "rejection of the trinity", when I have asked you previously, shows that your church does support the trinity, just perhaps not the way that others do. We do not accept that there are three gods in one 'head'.....we do not accept that there is any God but Jehovah. He is one God as the Jews believed. (Deut 6:4)
Three gods in one 'head'? :eek::confused: Oh, that's classic. You don't need to explain Mormon doctrine to me, honey. I understand it far better than you do.

The apostasy that occurred in the early church was a complete departure from what Christ taught. I cannot see how the LDS church's teachings have a foundation in the Bible.
A complete departure? See, you exaggerate so much that it's hard for anyone to give any credence whatsoever to anything you say. All of "Christendom" (as you so derisively refer to the rest of the world's followers of Jesus Christ) believe He is the Savior of mankind. We all read His words in the Sermon on the Mount and get pretty much the same message out of them. We all value the Bible in learning about God's will for us. We may use different translations, but we all have the same foundational text.

From Genesis to Revelation, we have no beliefs in common.
See, there you go again.

Scripture was written within a certain timeframe in the first century because the apostasy was already beginning when John wrote his last letters.
I'll be darned! That's what I believe, too. So much for your theory that we have nothing in common.

I don't believe that anything written after the first century can be counted on as "inspired of God".
Wow! We just witnessed a miracle here, folks! Deeje just started out a sentence with the words, "I believe..." I didn't think that phrase was in her vocabulary.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Um...no. I meant that the hope we have can never be compromised by disobedience to God's commands. How did you misread that? :shrug: LOL
Disobedience is the compromise that would lead us to lose our hope....

Ok.

Here's how I took it: 'compromised' can be substituted for 'lost.' So I read that t as: "the hope we have can never be 'lost' by disobedience to God's commands.

That is how I still read it......but I do know you did not mean it that way! I guess just chalk it up to differences between Australian usage of English, and American usage of English.

Take care, sister.
 

Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member
I am very skeptical of the medical professional, not so much the doctors themselves. They have a system that teaches them certain things as truth, but if that system is flawed and stubborn when it comes to change, I believe that it becomes like the churches
It's not just in medical school. In order to keep our licenses, we must continue our education and get credits, usually by reading current ... CURRENT ... journal articles. You judge us all while knowing next to nothing about our profession. Nice.

Actually, it's in the process of being done.
The only reasons I could find in ACTUAL journals for blood substitutes is lack of availability of real blood and the fact certain religions refuse it. NONE of it is about blood safety.

For JW's there is no situation that would lead to our disobedience in this issue. As Jesus said, "...whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.  Really, what good will it do a man if he gains the whole world but loses his life? Or what will a man give in exchange for his life?"
LOL. I mean, in just another thread, you were bragging that JW's got out of being killed by not going up against Nazis...

Patient: I need blood to live.
Religious denomination: You will burn in hell.
Hitler: I need you to not stop me from being the most evil douche on the planet.
Religious denomination: You got it!

they are specialists in their field
You mentioned one guy, a guy in a profession that gives out pain meds and whose profession regularly kills thousands a year.

Risk is a fact when it comes to medical practices, but that does not mean we should allow certain deaths to happen without trying to do something about it and stand there watching as long as there is even the slightest possibility of success.
Yes. Exactly. I can kill a person by giving out too much oxygen, but we don't ban AIR.

God's law on blood has been around since the days of Noah. It remains unchanged to this day.
This is the same God who mandated veganism in the days of Adam and Eve and then, after a flood which wiped out most of the global population and everything was endangered, THEN God says we can eat meat?

Yet you follow Watchtower?
Rather hypocritical, is it not?
Is there ANY Christian denomination that was clearly founded pre-first century?
 

Olinda

Member
@Deeje said: "No it was not the governing body who said we must not consume blood...it was God who said this. It is one of the most important commands in the Bible. Repeated down through thousands of years of history. "

My point was that the Governing Body forbade organ transplants, not consuming blood. Where is the Bible reference for this?

@Deeje said: "I cannot be truly happy when the world is in such a mess. Feeling for suffering humanity will not often let me appreciate the beautiful surroundings in the peaceful place I happen to live. Politically, commercially and religiously, the world is spiraling out of control. No one can fix this mess but God. How can anyone be truly happy, knowing that others are starving and have no place to call home? :("

Firstly, there never was a time without wars, famines, diseases and natural disasters. There are now more people and far better communication technologies, so we get sensationalist news.
Secondly the Bible itself tells you what to do: feed the hungry, clothe the naked, comfort the afflicted etc. And of course, not just your own religious family, but all mankind. I cook for a disabled friend, support a school in Kenya and help new immigrants with job finding skills, apart from looking after sick family members.
Finally, looking forward to an event (Armageddon) which would see MANY billions of normal, decent people wiped out to make room for some new order would certainly not make me happy.


"Should Christians accept therapies incorporating blood fractions? The Bible does not give specific details, so each one must make his own conscientious decision before God."

So why were organ transplants forbidden at all?

"The medical profession cannot substantiate that blood saved most of the people to whom it was administered. The findings in the OP suggest that people lived in spite of the transfusion rather than because of it. Our own experience demonstrates that doctors cannot say with any certainty who will live or die...blood or no blood. The majority of our brotherhood who were told that they would die without blood...didn't....and they recovered well and in record time. You do understand that this is by far our most common experience?"

Sure doctors cannot say with certainty: so what? The medical profession is still the most reliable source of information and care that we have. I'm glad of every unexpected cure. . . but would still rather not try to teach a qualified professional her job. I understand your position on blood transfusions and still do not agree that

1. children's lives should be risked by following religious commands over medical advice
2. blood transfusions are fraught with danger (sure there's always some and thats why risks are assessed)
3. forbidding whole blood but allowing fractions is either logical or Biblically supported.

Meantime I'm off walking in an internet-free area; back on Wednesday and wish you a great weekend also!
 

Nietzsche

The Last Prussian
Premium Member
"Do anesthesiologists administer blood transfusions?
Anesthesiologists administer approximately half the blood transfusions in the United States and are experts in making the risk and benefit assessments needed during a transfusion. Anesthesiologists are committed to the responsible use of the blood supply and to make the best decisions for patients."


http://asahq.org/lifeline/faqs/anesthesia experience

Not exactly plumbers, are they?

What alternatives to blood transfusion is offered by the medical profession? There are many and JW's have probably used them all and recovered well with no complications.

https://www.openanesthesia.org/refusal_of_blood_transfusion/
Most anesthetics are delivered via IVs. It's only logical that someone trained to find a vein to put something in would also be able to find a vein to take something out.
 
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