Are Satan and Hell as bad they say?

[MoonWater]

Now we are understanding our selves, MW sort of took offence when I said that she is to Epicurean to understand spiritual matters, relaying solely on sensations triggered by what is physical. It seems to me that it all boil down to the fact that you think that we are made of the physical and nothing else, you are not spiritual persons, thus your inability to understand what is essentially a Christian concept (Heavens and Hell).
Nature is travelling toward an end, not all dead nature is been reborn, the process may take any number of years but it moving toward an end, we cannot estimated how long it going to take, our scientist can only speculate. For example scientist tell us that our sun will turn off, what will happen to nature then.

I wasn't offended, I just don't like it when people spread falsehoods about me. Just because I don't accept or like your version of heaven doesn't mean I care only for or believe only in the physical. I understand spiritual matters quite well and while I may take time to enjoy the physical I also seek the spiritual... indeed I fail to see why the two must be at odds with eachother. I feel that one only detracts from the other if that one becomes our sole focus. Hence I seek the middle ground between the two. As I do in all things I seek the balance, the harmony. I may think the physical is important but it is not my sole focus and thus I am not Epicurian. Hence telling others that I am epicurean when I am not is spreading falsehoods about me.

Both riverwolf and I are very much spiritual persons, we just have a different idea of spirituality than you do and find spirituality in different places from you. What you say to us about not being able to understand/experience the spirituality of god and heaven without belief we could say to you about not being able to understand/experience the spirituality of nature without being open to it or believing it is there. Just because our spirituality is different from yours doesn't mean we have no spirituality at all, it just means that it is different.

One can be an Atheist and still be spiritual, emiliano

 

[challupa]

These people have great difficulties explaining their experiences and even greater difficulties in getting people to believe their account of the events. The greatest of teacher said: Joh 3:12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how shall you believe if I tell you heavenly things?
Most people that has such experiences give up on the sceptics, and so does God, but He inspired men to tell us, one such man is the Apostle John, the problem is that we cannot ascent to spiritual knowledge unaided, we need to seek God help, we must choose to came to God for help, we must become spiritual. Joh 3:31 He who comes from above is above all; he who is from the earth is earthly and speaks from the earth. He who comes from Heaven is above all,
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
God does want everybody to be eternally comfortable in heavens, that is why He gave us free will.

Okay, now having said that, wouldn't it be feasible that Heaven could have places which resemble nature on earth?

 

[challupa]

I think the most important issue here is trying to understand other people's ideas of spirituality. In fact tolerance of each other's ideas of spirituality have been man's greatest obstacles to finding a peaceful coexistance. Some religions such as Christianity, Judaism and Islam make it harder to accept anyone else as right because if others are right, then they are wrong. It seems to be very black and white. That is a challenge for sure, but I am seeing more and more people in these religions willing to accept that others should be allowed their beliefs and not tell them they are wrong just becasue they don't match their own beliefs. That is good, but we must do more of that imo. It is nobody's mission to try to convert others to our way of thinking and nor should it be. The bible guides some groups, the Koran guides others and the list goes on and on. That in itself should be a heads up for those that are determined to say their religion is the only true religion. The truth is, it is the only true religion for "you". It's okay to have many different beliefs. I believe that our diversity is our strength not our weakness. The only thing I measure as being a reason to interfere is if a belief is harming someone else. No one knows for sure about what the afterlife looks like nor do they know for sure there is even an afterlife. It is not something we should be condemning each other for in that case and certainly we should not let our diverse beliefs seperate us and cause us to exclude or at it's worst case scenerio, kill us. That is my thoughts.

 

[Riverwolf]

Now we are understanding our selves, MW sort of took offence when I said that she is to Epicurean to understand spiritual matters, relaying solely on sensations triggered by what is physical. It seems to me that it all boil down to the fact that you think that we are made of the physical and nothing else, you are not spiritual persons, thus your inability to understand what is essentially a Christian concept (Heavens and Hell).
Nature is travelling toward an end, not all dead nature is been reborn, the process may take any number of years but it moving toward an end, we cannot estimated how long it going to take, our scientist can only speculate. For example scientist tell us that our sun will turn off, what will happen to nature then.

Nature isn't limited to earth, you know. It's not limited to our Star System, either. Gaia, like all living things, dies. The sun will NOT just turn off, BTW; first it will swell to engulf the orbits of the first three planets. (This is estimated to happen in 5 billion years) The Sun will die not long after that. And then the dust that is the remains of our solar system will become the building blocks of a new star, and possibly new planets, possibly with new life.

And I don't believe we are physical and nothing else. I believe we have spirits. I just don't know what happens to them when we die. And I don't care to know; I'll know when I die. Nature is the same way. All living things have spirits and souls, IMO. Humans are hardly "special" in nature; we're just another of Gaia's children, IMO.

Just because something is 'inanimate' doesn't mean it doesn't have a soul of its own.

 

[BLang]

There's one way to find out for sure! If you want to find out quicker you just have to......:thud:

 

[emiliano]

I think the most important issue here is trying to understand other people's ideas of spirituality. In fact tolerance of each other's ideas of spirituality have been man's greatest obstacles to finding a peaceful coexistance. Some religions such as Christianity, Judaism and Islam make it harder to accept anyone else as right because if others are right, then they are wrong. It seems to be very black and white. That is a challenge for sure, but I am seeing more and more people in these religions willing to accept that others should be allowed their beliefs and not tell them they are wrong just becasue they don't match their own beliefs. That is good, but we must do more of that imo. It is nobody's mission to try to convert others to our way of thinking and nor should it be. The bible guides some groups, the Koran guides others and the list goes on and on. That in itself should be a heads up for those that are determined to say their religion is the only true religion. The truth is, it is the only true religion for "you". It's okay to have many different beliefs. I believe that our diversity is our strength not our weakness. The only thing I measure as being a reason to interfere is if a belief is harming someone else. No one knows for sure about what the afterlife looks like nor do they know for sure there is even an afterlife. It is not something we should be condemning each other for in that case and certainly we should not let our diverse beliefs seperate us and cause us to exclude or at it's worst case scenerio, kill us. That is my thoughts.

If you care to look back as to how this little shoot of this topic started, you will see that all I have done is to defend my faith of the mocking that it has been made of my beliefs, the presentation that it was made of the descriptions of visions of what heaven is like, taking it as literal descriptions, that it must be a boring place, my older brother religious walk has gone through different stages and at one stage he thought himself atheist, and he came with similar arguments, that he was not interested in going to a place where all he would do would be to sing praises and worship God for an eternity ( at the moment I think that he is RCC) he got very scientific at time and said that he could understand God creating the sun, the moon and some starts, but why so many? All I could say was that this is a message that say “I am your God”
Psa 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God! I will be praised among the nations, I will be praised in the earth.
The Bible is a message from God to humanity, thus the descriptions of many things are allegories that we with our limitations can understand. There are no street of gold and ornaments of precious stones in heaven, there is justice, love, peace and rest for our souls and this is of more value that this is a simile of it.
Now this is the reason why people preach their faiths “The only thing I measure as being a reason to interfere is if a belief is harming someone else”

 

[emiliano]

I wasn't offended, I just don't like it when people spread falsehoods about me. Just because I don't accept or like your version of heaven doesn't mean I care only for or believe only in the physical. I understand spiritual matters quite well and while I may take time to enjoy the physical I also seek the spiritual... indeed I fail to see why the two must be at odds with eachother. I feel that one only detracts from the other if that one becomes our sole focus. Hence I seek the middle ground between the two. As I do in all things I seek the balance, the harmony. I may think the physical is important but it is not my sole focus and thus I am not Epicurian. Hence telling others that I am epicurean when I am not is spreading falsehoods about me.

Both riverwolf and I are very much spiritual persons, we just have a different idea of spirituality than you do and find spirituality in different places from you. What you say to us about not being able to understand/experience the spirituality of god and heaven without belief we could say to you about not being able to understand/experience the spirituality of nature without being open to it or believing it is there. Just because our spirituality is different from yours doesn't mean we have no spirituality at all, it just means that it is different.

One can be an Atheist and still be spiritual, emiliano

I am merely responding to your quips “I don't like cities, so why would I want to spend eternity in one. Then the idea of eternal bliss doesn't interest me, not because I desire action, but because I don't see the point. And yes the idea sounds boring, again not because of lack of action, but because of the monotony it would bring”
In the first place, the beauty of the Kingdom of God cannot be described, there are no words that can give us a description, thus the allegory.
I don't think spiritual beauty can be "grasped" at all, only experienced.
And there you have it “only experienced” you will never grasp it this side of life, living in the flesh. Unless you are born of the spirit.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

 

[Riverwolf]

If you care to look back as to how this little shoot of this topic started, you will see that all I have done is to defend my faith of the mocking that it has been made of my beliefs, the presentation that it was made of the descriptions of visions of what heaven is like, taking it as literal descriptions, that it must be a boring place, my older brother religious walk has gone through different stages and at one stage he thought himself atheist, and he came with similar arguments, that he was not interested in going to a place where all he would do would be to sing praises and worship God for an eternity ( at the moment I think that he is RCC) he got very scientific at time and said that he could understand God creating the sun, the moon and some starts, but why so many? All I could say was that this is a message that say “I am your God”
Psa 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God! I will be praised among the nations, I will be praised in the earth.
The Bible is a message from God to humanity, thus the descriptions of many things are allegories that we with our limitations can understand. There are no street of gold and ornaments of precious stones in heaven, there is justice, love, peace and rest for our souls and this is of more value that this is a simile of it.
Now this is the reason why people preach their faiths “The only thing I measure as being a reason to interfere is if a belief is harming someone else”

Nobody was intentionally mocking you, and I apologize if I came off as that. (and I promise you that MoonWater wasn't mocking you either; she NEVER does that in real life) MoonWater and I are simply responding to what we read in the Bible; though it is allegory, it's a very poor one to me. While the poetry is certainly beautiful, it's not conveying even remotely a place I'd want to go, even as allegory. What you read is completely different from what we read.

And THAT is why I think the Bible is a treasure among literature. While many people condemn it for being so open for interpretation, I love it for that very reason.

BTW, I like being content with what I have here on earth. I have no need for eternal bliss.

 

[MoonWater]

I am merely responding to your quips “I don't like cities, so why would I want to spend eternity in one. Then the idea of eternal bliss doesn't interest me, not because I desire action, but because I don't see the point. And yes the idea sounds boring, again not because of lack of action, but because of the monotony it would bring”
In the first place, the beauty of the Kingdom of God cannot be described, there are no words that can give us a description, thus the allegory.

I could say the same thing about nature. It's beauty cannot be described, even our poetical allegories fall short of describing the true beauty that nature possesses.

I don't think spiritual beauty can be "grasped" at all, only experienced.
And there you have it “only experienced” you will never grasp it this side of life, living in the flesh. Unless you are born of the spirit.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Then I guess I am "born of the spirit" as I experience the spiritual all the time, all I have to do is remind myself that it is there and open myself up to experience its presence.

I was not trying to mock you or your beliefs with my posts, emiliano and I apologize if that's what you were seeing. I was merely expressing my opinion based on what I've read. Clearly the allegory given in the bible works well for you, all Riverwolf and I are saying is that it doesn't work well for us. That doesn't mean we think you are wrong or delusional or anything, it just means we have a different way of percieving things, that's all.

 

[MoonWater]

Nobody was intentionally mocking you, and I apologize if I came off as that. (and I promise you that MoonWater wasn't mocking you either; she NEVER does that in real life) MoonWater and I are simply responding to what we read in the Bible; though it is allegory, it's a very poor one to me. While the poetry is certainly beautiful, it's not conveying even remotely a place I'd want to go, even as allegory. What you read is completely different from what we read.

And THAT is why I think the Bible is a treasure among literature. While many people condemn it for being so open for interpretation, I love it for that very reason.

BTW, I like being content with what I have here on earth. I have no need for eternal bliss.

You said it far better than I could, these are my thoughts exactly.

 

[danny vee]

Except wasn't heaven described in detail in Revelations?

The picture painted in that book is not heaven; it's hell.

I'm not going to try and convince you to want to go to Heaven. I'm just saying that I think that Heaven is like a feeling. Just like you can't imagine pain without feeling it yourself, you can't imagine utter bliss without feeling it yourself. And you can write words to describe surroundings, but not to describe feelings. I simply didn't really think of the possibility of someone not wanting these things before now. I'm not judging you, you can think what you want, I'm just saying that for me denying something like that would be, well, unthoughtful.

 

[danny vee]

Those are poor examples for me as I have no desire to enter the olympics and I can't stand huge parties. Besides what you consider to be the best place may not be considered the best by others. And I'm merely going off of the biblical description of heaven. The description given in the bible doesn't sound heavenly at all to me, it sounds artificial and confining. I just don't have any interest in "eternal bliss", no matter how "wonderful" it may be.

Well that's your decision and I won't try to change it, if it is what you want. However, like I said in my other post, feelings cannot be described in words, and I think that a human cannot quite understand what utter and complete bliss is. You can't imagine pain, so I don't think you can imagine utter and complete happiness without feeling it. There are people who have personally felt spiritual glory in this life and I strongly suggest you read some of their accounts. There are some in "Varieties in Religious Experience" by William James.

 

[emiliano]

Nobody was intentionally mocking you, and I apologize if I came off as that. (and I promise you that MoonWater wasn't mocking you either; she NEVER does that in real life) MoonWater and I are simply responding to what we read in the Bible; though it is allegory, it's a very poor one to me. While the poetry is certainly beautiful, it's not conveying even remotely a place I'd want to go, even as allegory. What you read is completely different from what we read.

And THAT is why I think the Bible is a treasure among literature. While many people condemn it for being so open for interpretation, I love it for that very reason.

BTW, I like being content with what I have here on earth. I have no need for eternal bliss.

It is simple really, these two spiritual concepts are clearly explained through the allegories, and the reason for this is that it belong to the spiritual realm thing not seen. One is a place of blissful existence for which there are no possible description in human’s terms, thus the use of precious metal and stones as help, the other a place where we find our error, but we cannot leave because we have rejected God’s offer of Grace. One thing is for sure it will be like this: Psa 1:1 Blessed is the man who has not walked in the counsel of the ungodly, and has not stood in the way of sinners, and has not sat in the seat of the scornful.
Psa 1:2 But his delight is only in the Law of Jehovah; and in His Law he meditates day and night.
Psa 1:3 And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivulets of water that brings forth its fruit in its seasons, and its leaf shall not wither, and all which he does shall be blessed.
Psa 1:4 The wicked are not so, but are like chaff which the wind drives away.
Psa 1:5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
Psa 1:6 For Jehovah knows the way of the righteous; but the way of the ungodly shall perish.
(I hope that you don’t take this as Christianity beliefs that we will turn into trees one day.)
Anyhow I am glad that you and MW find spiritually in nature that is appealing to you, that it give you hope, I cannot, simply because nature is not a spirit (to me that is) this is because I see it, it is corporeal matter, thus moving to an end, dying/disintegrating/decaying/corrupting, Now to the question posed by the OP, are Satan and hell as bad as they say? Is there such things in you nature based religion? Is there a nature Satan or a hell? Are they bad?

 

[Riverwolf]

It is simple really, these two spiritual concepts are clearly explained through the allegories, and the reason for this is that it belong to the spiritual realm thing not seen. One is a place of blissful existence for which there are no possible description in human’s terms, thus the use of precious metal and stones as help, the other a place where we find our error, but we cannot leave because we have rejected God’s offer of Grace. One thing is for sure it will be like this: Psa 1:1 Blessed is the man who has not walked in the counsel of the ungodly, and has not stood in the way of sinners, and has not sat in the seat of the scornful.
Psa 1:2 But his delight is only in the Law of Jehovah; and in His Law he meditates day and night.
Psa 1:3 And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivulets of water that brings forth its fruit in its seasons, and its leaf shall not wither, and all which he does shall be blessed.
Psa 1:4 The wicked are not so, but are like chaff which the wind drives away.
Psa 1:5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
Psa 1:6 For Jehovah knows the way of the righteous; but the way of the ungodly shall perish.
(I hope that you don’t take this as Christianity beliefs that we will turn into trees one day.)

No, I don't, because the words say "and he shall be like a tree...". I recognize a simile when I see it.

Anyhow I am glad that you and MW find spiritually in nature that is appealing to you, that it give you hope, I cannot, simply because nature is not a spirit (to me that is) this is because I see it, it is corporeal matter, thus moving to an end, dying/disintegrating/decaying/corrupting, Now to the question posed by the OP, are Satan and hell as bad as they say? Is there such things in you nature based religion? Is there a nature Satan or a hell? Are they bad?

In my beliefs, we bring hell upon ourselves, just as we bring heaven upon ourselves. (Understand, me and MoonWater actually do have very different beliefs; we're just both paganistic at root.) In terms of heaven and hell, I've adopted the Buddhist perspective of it: suffering and enlightnement. Both can be achieved in life. So hell is certainly a bad feeling, but only as much as you want it to be. Heaven is a blissful feeling, but only as much as you want it to be.

As for Satan, I don't know if such an entity with that title exists, but for me, it represents the desire in mankind to do wrong knowing what's right. The "anti-conscience", if you will.

I don't know what happens after death.

 

[Riverwolf]

I'm not going to try and convince you to want to go to Heaven. I'm just saying that I think that Heaven is like a feeling. Just like you can't imagine pain without feeling it yourself, you can't imagine utter bliss without feeling it yourself. And you can write words to describe surroundings, but not to describe feelings. I simply didn't really think of the possibility of someone not wanting these things before now. I'm not judging you, you can think what you want, I'm just saying that for me denying something like that would be, well, unthoughtful.

Fair enough.

 

[MoonWater]

Well that's your decision and I won't try to change it, if it is what you want. However, like I said in my other post, feelings cannot be described in words, and I think that a human cannot quite understand what utter and complete bliss is. You can't imagine pain, so I don't think you can imagine utter and complete happiness without feeling it. There are people who have personally felt spiritual glory in this life and I strongly suggest you read some of their accounts. There are some in "Varieties in Religious Experience" by William James.

I understand, and I actually agree with you. We may have words for different feelings but those words only have meaning to those who have actually experienced those emotions before. I'm not saying I don't want to experience "complete and utter bliss". I'm merely saying that I wouldn't want to experience it for eternity.

 

[MoonWater]

It is simple really, these two spiritual concepts are clearly explained through the allegories, and the reason for this is that it belong to the spiritual realm thing not seen. One is a place of blissful existence for which there are no possible description in human’s terms, thus the use of precious metal and stones as help, the other a place where we find our error, but we cannot leave because we have rejected God’s offer of Grace. One thing is for sure it will be like this: Psa 1:1 Blessed is the man who has not walked in the counsel of the ungodly, and has not stood in the way of sinners, and has not sat in the seat of the scornful.
Psa 1:2 But his delight is only in the Law of Jehovah; and in His Law he meditates day and night.
Psa 1:3 And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivulets of water that brings forth its fruit in its seasons, and its leaf shall not wither, and all which he does shall be blessed.
Psa 1:4 The wicked are not so, but are like chaff which the wind drives away.
Psa 1:5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
Psa 1:6 For Jehovah knows the way of the righteous; but the way of the ungodly shall perish.
(I hope that you don’t take this as Christianity beliefs that we will turn into trees one day.)
Anyhow I am glad that you and MW find spiritually in nature that is appealing to you, that it give you hope, I cannot, simply because nature is not a spirit (to me that is) this is because I see it, it is corporeal matter, thus moving to an end, dying/disintegrating/decaying/corrupting, Now to the question posed by the OP, are Satan and hell as bad as they say? Is there such things in you nature based religion? Is there a nature Satan or a hell? Are they bad?

I understand, we all just find spirituality in different places and in different ways. I doubt there would be nearly so much confusion and questioning over it if we didn't. As for your questions... what Riverwolf said

 

[challupa]

If you care to look back as to how this little shoot of this topic started, you will see that all I have done is to defend my faith of the mocking that it has been made of my beliefs, the presentation that it was made of the descriptions of visions of what heaven is like, taking it as literal descriptions, that it must be a boring place, my older brother religious walk has gone through different stages and at one stage he thought himself atheist, and he came with similar arguments, that he was not interested in going to a place where all he would do would be to sing praises and worship God for an eternity ( at the moment I think that he is RCC) he got very scientific at time and said that he could understand God creating the sun, the moon and some starts, but why so many? All I could say was that this is a message that say “I am your God”
Psa 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God! I will be praised among the nations, I will be praised in the earth.
The Bible is a message from God to humanity, thus the descriptions of many things are allegories that we with our limitations can understand. There are no street of gold and ornaments of precious stones in heaven, there is justice, love, peace and rest for our souls and this is of more value that this is a simile of it.
Now this is the reason why people preach their faiths “The only thing I measure as being a reason to interfere is if a belief is harming someone else”

Well I do understand what you are saying. I just believe we are a species that does alot of inner and outer searching. Because we have that ability, we come up with many different interpretations. Not everything that works for some people works for others. I think that is good because it gives us diversity. Your brother was a searcher and it sounds like he has finally found what works for him, I am glad. It also sounds like you have found what works for you. Again, that's good.

I also believe in doing no harm. I have always had a problem listening to people talking to me about what it takes for me to be saved though and I think lots of people do not appreciate it. I know my family do that with me and it causes seperation because they truly believe I am going to hell if I don't believe what they believe. That is quite stressful for them and I feel sad for them because they truly do believe that. They really do care about me and want what they think is best for me. But that's the problem, it's not what's best for me and their constant trying is causing harm. It is a difficult situation and that is why I say trying to convert someone is not a good thing and not very respectful. While it is done with love and the best of intentions, it still causes strife and sadness. It makes me feel like they think they are superior to me because they have the "truth" and I am just to blind or obstinate to see. I on the other hand find no sustinence from religions. I am spiritual, but dogma and things like heaven and hell, reward and punishment are alien to my beliefs. I can no more embrace their beliefs than they can mine. So I understand. You do not need to defend your religion emiliano. You just need to take joy from it.

 

[emiliano]

I also believe in doing no harm. I have always had a problem listening to people talking to me about what it takes for me to be saved though and I think lots of people do not appreciate it. I know my family do that with me and it causes seperation because they truly believe I am going to hell if I don't believe what they believe. That is quite stressful for them and I feel sad for them because they truly do believe that. They really do care about me and want what they think is best for me. But that's the problem, it's not what's best for me and their constant trying is causing harm. It is a difficult situation and that is why I say trying to convert someone is not a good thing and not very respectful. While it is done with love and the best of intentions, it still causes strife and sadness. It makes me feel like they think they are superior to me because they have the "truth" and I am just to blind or obstinate to see. I on the other hand find no sustinence from religions. I am spiritual, but dogma and things like heaven and hell, reward and punishment are alien to my beliefs. I can no more embrace their beliefs than they can mine. So I understand. You do not need to defend your religion emiliano. You just need to take joy from it.

Personally I believe that we cannot covert anybody, that this is God merciful act, we can pray for the conversions of our love ones and God may have mercy on them and draw them to the saviour, now you must grant me that there a good number of unbelievers doing an equally diligent job of preaching and converting, even the preacher of God’s non existence, and they use similar tactic and strategies, have you noticed how superior they sound? The promises they make?
Challupa what we are commanded to do is to witness to other, they see us and hear us and they can believe us not I believe in this “Be ready always to give an answer to everyone who asks you a reason of the hope in you” Offcourse this also entitle to rebuke misrepresentations of your faith beliefs, I have a thread on this and got very interesting responses.

 

[challupa]

Personally I believe that we cannot covert anybody, that this is God merciful act, we can pray for the conversions of our love ones and God may have mercy on them and draw them to the saviour, now you must grant me that there a good number of unbelievers doing an equally diligent job of preaching and converting, even the preacher of God’s non existence, and they use similar tactic and strategies, have you noticed how superior they sound? The promises they make?
Challupa what we are commanded to do is to witness to other, they see us and hear us and they can believe us not I believe in this “Be ready always to give an answer to everyone who asks you a reason of the hope in you” Offcourse this also entitle to rebuke misrepresentations of your faith beliefs, I have a thread on this and got very interesting responses.

I agree that no one can convert anyone else, so why do they try? I also agree that there are non religious people who are trying to get religious people to let go of their belief in god. I don't agree with that either mostly because I don't think it will work. I don't have a problem with someone saying to me what they believe once and leaving it at that. Everyone is entitled to their beliefs and it's good to know what we believe. I do not think it's right that people constantly try to tell me what to believe though. That is disrespectful imo. When a religion believes it their duty to "witness" it crosses the line between letting others no what they believe and "preaching" and that I do have issues with. I don't believe it is respectful of another and violates the other's right to free will. Ironically it is people of religion that believe God gave us free will and these are the people that so often are disrespectfull of this right. Do you see what I mean?