I think you missed my meaning completely. I think that when we die there is a perfect afterlife for everyone. I don't think if there is a god h/she would limit the experience of the afterlife. Also I do not think the MW is in any way how you describe her. From her posts I have seen she is quite spiritual. There is a difference imo between spiritual and religious. You can be spiritual without being religious, but you can also be religious without being spiritual. Some who are religious are spiritual, some are not imo.
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Are Satan and Hell as bad they say?
- Thread starter J-Train
- Start date
Except my feelings about heaven as it is described in the bible have nothing to do with "carnal desires" or "wanting action." As I've said before, I'm merely expressing my own feelings based on the description that has been given, namely the description of heaven being a "city of gold". I don't like cities, so why would I want to spend eternity in one. Then the idea of eternal bliss doesn't interest me, not because I desire action, but because I don't see the point. And yes the idea sounds boring, again not because of lack of action, but because of the monotony it would bring.
Oh, and I'll thank you not to go around telling others what my thoughts and desires are when you clearly don't know them or me. I am not "devoted to the pursuit of sensual pleasure" as Epicurean is defined though I don't see anything wrong with enjoying sensual pleasure when it comes your way. My religion is about harmony and balance and thus I search for the happy medium between the physical and the spiritual. Personally I find more spirituality and find myself more at peace when in nature. Nature is my heaven. I fail to see why God would spend so much time creating and maintaining the wonders of nature we see around us if he plans on simply replacing it with some golden city. I'm going based on what I've read and expressing my feelings and reactions to that. the actual heaven may be very different, all I'm saying is that, I really hope it is.
bmxdad2001
New Member
Heaven and hell are all around us. They are the spritual realms that your earthly eyes cannot see. Is hell a burning lake of fire? No, but the negative invisible influences are all around us. Is he real? Absolutely yes. If I told you how I know, you wouldn't believe me. Blessings to you all.
OK, let see:
Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, nor of the moon, that they might shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it, and its lamp is the Lamb.
The sun makes, the moon and the ocean, have a strong sensory stimulation on us all, it makes us feel good, this sensation is a good sensation, but this is nothing compared to the sensation that contemplate the Glory of will bring to those that believe, the Bible in the genesis allegory stated that the reason for the creation of the sun and the moon is that of measure tine and seasons, the after life that God will give to those that believe has no end, which means that we will eternally in awe of Gods Glory, as I told you it isnt that there is nothing, on the contrary there is so much and is of such beauty that cannot be describe, You seem to e ignored that this world isnt the Kingdom that we seek and as I have said several times nobody can acquire this knowledge unaided by God.
The only eternal bliss is in death, IMO that is sad and depressing, it must be the influence of eastern religions, to Christians this life is beautiful and the after life. the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments, and His ways past finding out!
Not Bob
Member
In some views, angels don't have free will and can't rebel against God. They carry out God's will in everything they do. If that's so, then Satan could not ever have rebelled against God and is still an angel of God carrying out God's will. Same with all his demons. The Bible does say not only did God create evil, but he also sent evil spirits to various people.
Not Bob
Member
"Death is the road to awe" -the guardian with the flaming sword from The Fountain. Great film BTW.
That is the answer, you cannot see it , there is no enough light illuminating your mind (you need God's assistance), it is no wonder that you find it boring, what you see is a place in penumbra, the gold the precious stones, the light that is stronger than the light of the sun, are allegories. What this allegory using things found in nature is saying is that this is nothing but a shadow of what the kingdom is like, there are no words to convey it beauty to the senses of the flesh. With the flesh we can only grasp material beauty not spiritual beauty.
A Heaven without God is not heavens at all, it is hell. I dont know but someone that says nature is my heaven is not spiritual, nature is physical so this is to say my heaven is the physical. Why do you think that God is obliged to give a perfect after life to everyone?
Renji
Well-Known Member
Well try to imagine Satan as a hijacker of a plane and Hell as the twin towers of World Trade Center, that was crushed in 9/11/01 into rubbles and killed thousands of people. That seemed hell to me. Economic Crisis kills people and makes many families in the world hungry. That seems to be hell. And I think, we are experiencing a piece of hell! Now according to what I said, try answer your own question.
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I don't think spiritual beauty can be "grasped" at all, only experienced. And I experience spiritual beauty all the time, when I'm out in nature, when I commune with my patron, In the moments when I am overwhelmed by the love I feel for my partner, and in many other times and places besides. I experience the spiritual and feel it's beauty, and it's ugliness, whenever I open myself up to it.
Edit: And I do have the assistance, or rather the guidance, of a god. She is very different from your god but she guids and helps me all the same. She has helped me to find the beauty that is on this Earth, the beauty that cannot be seen and the heaven that is inside myself if only I choose to seek it.
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Perhaps nature is only physical to YOU. But if nature is only physical in general then explain to me how I feel far more closer to the spiritual and far closer to any state of bliss when I am out in nature itself than I do in some church or temple or other artificial building. I say nature is my heaven because that is where I experience the most spiritual beauty.
Who said anything about god not being there?? God is all things and originally god made nature. It is humans that built cities and all sorts of things that are killing god's nature. However, I believe God is life, all kinds, so that is why I think there is something for everyone both here in the physical world and in the afterlife. If you choose golden cities as being your heaven, then you're in luck, they are likely there for you. If MW chooses nature, she is also in luck, because I am sure that is available too. Don't box God in, there is no need.
Then what's the point?
Nature is about as spiritual as you get! There is NOTHING more wonderful than walking beneath the trees, being embraced by the wind, warmed by the sun.
And I know you didn't mean it, but I'm greatly offended when you say that someone who says nature is heaven is not spiritual. Have you ever TRIED walking through a forest?
Spirituality is related to the idea of spirits, non physical and incorruptible, God is a spirit. Is nature a spirit? I think not, when our senses can be stimulated by a presence that is incorporeal, a spirit, then and only then you are in a spiritual experience, that is what the Bible teaches. Joh 4:23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father seeks such to worship Him.
Then what's the point? The point is to worship God in the spiritual realm even in this earth. In this temporary stage of existence, that is not eternal and corruptible, all that is physical is corruptible, in fact nature it self is decaying/dying at this very moment, this is not so in the Kingdom of God, it is eternal and it characteristics indescribable in human terms, thus the need for allegories to explain it.
People this is universal truth, nature is physical therefore is temporal, matter decays and dies God is spirit.
Then what's the point? The point is to worship God in the spiritual realm even in this earth. In this temporary stage of existence, that is not eternal and corruptible, all that is physical is corruptible, in fact nature it self is decaying/dying at this very moment, this is not so in the Kingdom of God, it is eternal and it characteristics indescribable in human terms, thus the need for allegories to explain it.
People this is universal truth, nature is physical therefore is temporal, matter decays and dies God is spirit.
Then my spirit will die with the physical.
Besides, to me, just because the Bible says so, doesn't mean it is so. Don't forget me and MoonWater aren't Christians; therefore the Bible is not the source of our spirituality; the natural is. (don't get me wrong; I think the Bible is a wonderful source of wisdom and philosophy, truly a literary masterpiece)
Not to mention, nature isn't self-decaying right now; she's just changing, just like she's been doing for the last 4.6 billion years!
Here's what I've seen in nature: things die, and are reborn again through that death.
Like the Phoenix.
How do you explain Near Death Experiences then that come back telling of fields, or cities. Each one was different. Maybe the afterlife is whatever appeals to the one who has died. God would want everyone to be comfortable wouldn't he?
I'd certainly prefer it if it were more like in Greek mythology; where the punishments and rewards cater to the individual.
Now we are understanding our selves, MW sort of took offence when I said that she is to Epicurean to understand spiritual matters, relaying solely on sensations triggered by what is physical. It seems to me that it all boil down to the fact that you think that we are made of the physical and nothing else, you are not spiritual persons, thus your inability to understand what is essentially a Christian concept (Heavens and Hell).
Nature is travelling toward an end, not all dead nature is been reborn, the process may take any number of years but it moving toward an end, we cannot estimated how long it going to take, our scientist can only speculate. For example scientist tell us that our sun will turn off, what will happen to nature then.
These people have great difficulties explaining their experiences and even greater difficulties in getting people to believe their account of the events. The greatest of teacher said: Joh 3:12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how shall you believe if I tell you heavenly things?
Most people that has such experiences give up on the sceptics, and so does God, but He inspired men to tell us, one such man is the Apostle John, the problem is that we cannot ascent to spiritual knowledge unaided, we need to seek God help, we must choose to came to God for help, we must become spiritual. Joh 3:31 He who comes from above is above all; he who is from the earth is earthly and speaks from the earth. He who comes from Heaven is above all,
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
God does want everybody to be eternally comfortable in heavens, that is why He gave us free will.