metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Well said, plus let me add that non-Jews need not worry about following all of the Law anyway.
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Are the 10 Commandments as a whole valid today?
- Thread starter C-Faith
- Start date
JesusBeliever
Active Member
Hi there, the expectation on Christians by our Lord Jesus is higher than the OT Law. It is not enough not to steal, or not kill, or not covet. We are expected to love, not only in word but in deed as well. That was the whole point of the Good Samaritan parable:
"And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live. But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour? And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead. And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side. But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him, And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him. And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee. Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves? And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise." Luke 10:25-37
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe if a Jew is dismissing what God says simply because it is Christian he will have to answer to God for it. As a debater I would expect you to look at the facts and debate them. The fact is that the verses indicated do not prove that the ten commandments have gone away but you were too busy being facetious to see that, seriously?
I can see where you would take issue with Paul saying He isn't speaking God's word but the truth is that Paul is understanding what a relationship to God entails and relating that to what Jews formerly understood. He is saying that God is the law not the law is God as Jews were seeing it.
Muffled
Jesus in me
He fulfills it in believers like me. I don't have to think, gee should I steal or not, because the Paraclete keeps me from stealing without me even having to think about it. If a Jew or anyone else wishes to fulfill the law he has to fight his own nature and Satan's enticements to fulfill it and that presumes he even wants to fulfill it. Chances are real good that non-Christians will fail to fulfill the law because they are not perfect as Jesus is.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe that makes sense if one is talking about Jewish ceremonial law but God intends laws to help people lead a good life so His laws are good for everyone. It is just that some of them are pertinent only to certain times, groups and situations (like the ceremonial laws) and are not mean to be generalized to everyone. If one has the lawgiver as Lord and Savior he has the ability to know what is pertinent and what is not.
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
Why do jews have to ''worry'' about the laws your referring to?
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
The Laws are Commandments that were given to the Jewish people at Sinai and shortly afterword (all are found in Torah), so there is no such thing mentioned in Torah about "ceremonial Law".
All of the Commandments Jews are expected to observe as best as possible, but no such obligation exists for non-Jews. For gentiles, they can pick and choose which Laws they want to follow to a large extent, although the issues of compassion and justice should be their driving force since God must have given the Law for a reason, and because of the Noachide Laws, they appear to be universal teachings.
Therefore, what Jesus' teaches is very compatible for non-Jews but not for Jews, the latter of which are bound by the entire Law. Matter of fact, Torah states that any supposed prophet who teaches that the entire Law need not be observed is labeled as a "false prophet", and they were not to be treated too kindly. And there is nothing found in Torah that states or implies that a messianic figure could change that.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
An order is an order-- not a suggestion. Sometimes commands may not go over well with us as individuals because we tend not to like being bossed around, even if the Commands are from God.
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
Don't you mean per Talmudic interpretation?
That being said, I don't think that the Xian laws were done away with, either. They were modified or changed by Jesus, some left the same. The verses that are used to present the argument that Xians have no laws, are a misinterpretation, of the wording used, as in, one can infer from the verses, that actually, there are some laws for Xians. They just aren't the same laws, necessarily, and, some laws were actually redacted for Xianity.
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Just which fact or fact do you think relevant?
The author of the OP answered his own question by saying:
The NIV translation of the referenced Christian scripture reads:
14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility,
15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace,
16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.
15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace,
16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.
So, again, just which fact did I fail to properly assess?
What the OP in fact says is the the answer is no because Ephesians 2:14-16 says so. That's not a fact. That's a faith-based Christian claim.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
I was not at all referring to the Talmud but only what's found in Torah, and the 613 Commandments can be found here, with the verses they are derived from: http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
Thanks for the useful link. Are you making an argument that there isn't interpretation involved, in carrying out Torah laws?
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
most Bibles contain the Torah. /before the NT.
roger1440
I do stuff
And?
Even the Jews today do Not keep the 613 laws. Where is it written that Christians should sacrifice animals,etc. ?
Jesus' brother James wrote about the kingly law, or royal law, at James 2:8.
Who was ever arrested for keep that law, or for keeping what is recorded at Galatians 5:22-23 ?
What was Jesus' New commandment in place of the old Constitution of the Mosaic Law for ancient Israel as recorded at John 13:34-35 ?
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Absolutely not as there's always been the challenges of interpretation and application, and 2 Jews = 3 opinions on just about everything. The Talmud helps by citing commentaries from sages, but these are helpful but not "the final answers".
However, we should never lose track of what's written in Torah itself just because there are some points that we may disagree on, and it's more like "fine-tuning" an engine versus "redesigning" it.
I'm glad the link was helpful.
Is ' Not like being bossed around ' why people do Not want to follow Jesus' New commandment to have self-sacrificing love for others as mentioned at John 13:34-35 ?________
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Do only Christians act out of love? Do only Christians that believe in the right doctrines act out of true love? Because the priest and the Levite believed in the right thing, but the Samaritan didn't. Yet, he's the guy Jesus said he was the true "neighbor." So could a guy, like lets say Gandhi, be more of a "neighbor" than a professing Christian that does little else than go to church on Sunday and walks past hurting people everyday?
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Do Christians keep the commands of Jesus? Especially the "New" commandment? And, when it comes to being okay with all but one of the Ten Commandments, why do most Christians keep a day set aside for God? Where did they get that "rule" from? And why Sunday? Especially during football season? Actually why Saturday either? Why mess up the weekend. Why not make God's special day during a work day?
Oh, and about the poor animals, did their blood do any good on forgiving sins? Did cutting the throat of a lamb cause people to repent? Probably not much. So what does get people to repent? Believing in Jesus? It doesn't seem like it. In fact, can anyone, even with the help of Jesus, ever repent of all their sins? And, like I've asked before, if a Christian knows of a sin they have and doesn't repent, can they really say they believe in Jesus 100%? So I got a feeling all of us fall short of Jesus' standard. Some of us question that standard and question Jesus. Others say they "believe", break his rules and go on as if all is well.