Are the 10 Commandments as a whole valid today?

[Shadow Wolf]

The 10 Commandments are one of my complaints about the Bible. But, then again, I also had a dad who walked out and a mom who mocked and ridiculed me throughout puberty.

I have no questions, I was just sharing my view of the ten commandments: that only three of them have any place in our society (legal system) today. Because you posted this in debates I assumed you wanted to debate the validity of the ten commandments.

That's pretty much how I feel, except by extending it to include the fact that if you need an ancient book of religious superstition to teach you not to lie, steal, or kill then you have some very serious issues.

Hebrews 9: 27 - God's judgment supercedes human politics........

That is your religion, and no reason at all that others should have to uphold your religious views. To me, it's interesting to watch Jews and Christians debate the Tanakh/OT. But to many of us those books have no weight or bearing on us, and we could care less about what their laws and dogma are. and some of us even find some terrible issues with morality in the Bible, such as the deep efforts to control sexuality, which is included in the 10 (and that is one of the lesser complaints and concerns).

 

[rosends]

I found this. He doesn't discuss your question though.
I can answer two parts of your question there though.
The first thing is that even if its an "extra-judicial killing", the person that he is killing, is not a בר קיימא as per Rashi. So even though the action is a מעשה רציחה, what he's killing is a dead body, which has no liability.
The second thing is that פסוק ל is referring to the גואל הדם according to the Sifri, not the court.

Even if 30 is referring to the goel hadam, the root r-tz-ch (if it means "murder") would be inappropriate. Calling killing a dead body not invoking liability still leaves me wondering why it would be labeled retzicha and categorized as extra-judicial when it is permissible.

 

[Tumah]

Even if 30 is referring to the goel hadam, the root r-tz-ch (if it means "murder") would be inappropriate. Calling killing a dead body not invoking liability still leaves me wondering why it would be labeled retzicha and categorized as extra-judicial when it is permissible.

I don't know, that's why I said I can only answer two parts. Maybe because its an act of premeditated murder, but it is sanctioned. It doesn't take place in the framework of the court system, it takes place out in the field wherever he finds the guy, however he manages to kill him. On the other hand, I see אונקלוס uses קטל for both רצח and הרג.
I'm surprised the Malbi"m doesn't mention this in either ספר הכרמל or יאיר אור and I looked in both first. But my yeshivah is doing Makos this zman, so I'll see if I can find something next week.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You accidently put your replies in my quote. I did t get the alert...will reply, i just think you have different beliefs than the content and context as described in scripture. Especially comparing god's commadment as from men. That would make no sense to have 9 mortality and the tenth commandment just there.

Given they are all together, all ten, the context is, they are from god and they are to be followed.

What exactly do you believe is the sabbath?

What did Jesus practice on the Sabbath that made his works that of men?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Well, like I said, my argument is that the other 7 are not valid in terms of society, not that they are religiously invalid. I'm sure they all are valid in the lives of the devout but that isn't my argument, my argument can make no use of bible passages.

I am the Lord, your God.

Well, we live in a multicultural, multi-religious world. The US and many other countries have made laws that prevent discrimination, this includes discrimination based on religion. This commandment suggests that the Christian god is the only one which should be recognized, which, if moved into the legal system, would criminalize those with different beliefs.

Thou shall bring no false idols before me.

Same as the above, religious diversity and the general idea of anti-discrimination eliminate this too.

Do not take the name of the Lord in vain.

This goes against freedom of speech, something that is also prevalent in many western countries today. It also breaks the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment which states that the government "shall make no law establishing religion." The only reason to outlaw this language would be for religious reasons, thus establishing Christianity as a state-supported religion.

Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy.

Another religious one, how would this even be enforced? It also goes against the Establishment Clause as it suggests mandatory religious observances.

Honor thy father and thy mother.

I firmly believe that respect should be earned. Some parents are horrible to their children, they beat them and hurt them and cast them out. These people do not deserve to be respected or honored by their abused children.

Thou shall not kill/murder.

This is one of the three that should be (and is) in our legal system. I can't think of any way to justify murder.

Thou shall not commit adultery.

This should not make its way into our legal system as it is really too messy and too personal and frankly I cannot think of a reason that it should. What exactly counts as cheating? Is flirting cheating? How would we define that? What about touches on the upper thigh? "Adultery" is such a wide term that we just cannot regulate it. Also, what about open relationships, or people who find refuge in another person while still caught in an abusive relationship?

Thou shall not steal.

Another one I agree with. It is currently also in our legal system and I can think of no reason that this as a whole (like murder) should become legal. I do feel sympathy for those who steal out of necessity, and I believe their punishment should be lesser, but it is still a crime.

Thou shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

The last one I agree with, also in our legal system.

Thou shall not covet your neighbor's wife (or anything that belongs to your neighbor).

Covet means desire to have. Thoughts cannot be made illegal and cannot be regulated. There is no way or reason to punish someone for desiring something. This is also a big way that our economy flourishes, you see someone else with something, you want it, and you buy it. Without desiring other people's things, it would be very hard for new companies to grow.

-----------------------------------------------
Side note: @Carlita, I copied the quoted commandments from you, how do you display a link with text other than the link itself like you did here?

RF has a bug with its alert. I didnt get this either.

Do you mean make a text a link?

1. Type the text you want to link i.e. "Bookstore"
2. Hightlight it.

Once you have it highlighted look where it says B, I, U....

3. Find the symbol that looks like a falling " 8 "

4. Paste your link and enter.

Thats it.

Hope thats what you asked?

 

[Brian Schuh]

How can that be?

Colossians 2: 14-17 - one of the commandments was nailed to the cross.....

What was nailed to the cross, besides Jesus, was a sign written in Hebrew, Latin and Greek that said, This is the King of the Jews.

I wish St. Paul was nailed to a cross before he had a chance to write and distribute his lies and delusions to gullible pagans.

The 613 commands in the Torah, including the Ten Commandments are eternal. Even the Prophet Isaiah said that in the new earth, from Sabbath to Sabbath and new moon to new moon, all flesh shall come before the Lord. So obviously in the new world, Sabbaths and New Moons shall be observed. What will be forgotten is the insanity of persons like St. Paul. Jesus taught the Torah, to keep it, including the Sabbath (for Jews that is.)

Gentiles do not need to keep the Sabbath. For that matter, they don't need to honor their parents either. Gentiles were given the Seven Laws of Noah. Jesus did not add nor did he subtract from the laws of Moses.

 

[lovesong]

RF has a bug with its alert. I didnt get this either.

Do you mean make a text a link?

1. Type the text you want to link i.e. "Bookstore"
2. Hightlight it.

Once you have it highlighted look where it says B, I, U....

3. Find the symbol that looks like a falling " 8 "

4. Paste your link and enter.

Thats it.

Hope thats what you asked?

Perfect, thank you!

 

[Unveiled Artist]

C-Faith

Your answers where in my reply, so, I couldn't quote. Here is what you said: My comments in purple.



1. What about the Sabbath that god sanctioned makes it (as you versed) now practices of men?
--- Because again, the Sabbath was for the Israelites ONLY (Ephesians 2: 14-17)

All ten commandments are in the OT and they were all together (with the rest). The Sabbath was not singled out at all. The NT, the same thing as I quoted scripture. Jesus also followed the Sabbath. So, what makes it wrong, if Jesus followed something you don't want to?

Also, the Jews got upset that Jesus was doing works on the Sabbath. He was doing the works of his father. If Christians should not practice the Sabbath, what right does Jesus have to do anything on the Sabbath for his father?

Are you accusing him just as the Jews did? (That's what it seems like, honestly)

2. Why would Jesus keep 9 out of 10 commandments when he practiced all 10?
--- I don't know exactly, but the 9 deals more with morality.........(morals don't change)

If you don't know, how can you support your opinion that practicing the Sabbath is wrong when Jesus practiced it? Jesus was a Jew, so he is in the same category as the other Jews that practiced God's laws that are not valid today?

All ten (all commandments) have to do with morality. Why would you think Jesus singled that out all because he disagreed with the Jews on how they practiced not the practice itself?

3. Are you mixing up with Jesus' practiced and what the pagans did?
--- No

I ask, because many Christians claim pagan practices are practices of men, Sabbath included.

4. Are you mixing up the 10 commandments with the other commandments in Lev and Exo which are appropriate for that time?
--- No.....

I ask because from your opinion, it sounds like Jesus' view of keeping the Sabbath isn't as important as the other commandments he emphasis his followers to practice. Maybe you're thinking of the Sabbath as works of men because you're associating it with works or things people do to please god.

5. Do you realize that Jesus validated those commandments by his dying on the cross? Not only did he validate it, now, by his spirit, a christian (in my opinion) should be obligated to follow it because it is god's commandments not mans.

--- Validated what commandments?

All.

2 Timothy 2 and 3 doesnt say anything that supports why the Sabbath is wrong when Jesus followed it.

-- 2 Timothy 2: 15 means to STUDY and RIGHTFULLY DIVIDE SCRIPTURE........

These do not support your point that one out of ten commandments Jesus followed are wrong.

Also, Jesus summarized the commandments into two. He did not invalidate them. I think you are getting the Sabbath mixed up with commandments like "make an altar X inches and Y height. Put lamb on the altar. Let not the Isrealties see this for they should die. Only levites are to handle all sacrifices." Those type of commandments aren't works of men; however, they do not apply to the NT because Jesus said you did not need to sacrifice anything anymore to please god. The Sabbath is no where near this.

What do you think the Sabbath means?
What do you think people do on the Sabbath that makes Jesus' practice that of men?

And, his crucifixion validated all commandments. Once you were saved, you are bound to the L-aw. If not, whose law are you bound by, man?

 

[Milton Platt]

George Carlin will be judged by Christ just like all of us.

Hebrews 9: 27

You are assuming that your god exists..............

 

[Shadow Wolf]

You are assuming that your god exists..............

Well, that is what it means to follow a religion.
But it would have been comical gold if Carlin had to stand before the Christian god (as perceived according to the sadistic and malevolent punisher), it probably became the stories of legends because Carlin probably ripped on him in ways no other human has even come close to. At no other point in our history would anything have been so brutally assaulted with sarcasm.

 

[Aštra’el]

I do not think about the Ten Commandments all that often, but if I deeply contemplate and examine my nature I think I might find that I probably do observe them in my own way.

​

I. YHWH is the highest and greatest deity in my pantheon.

II. I worship God(s), not statues. Not paintings. A statue or painting might depict one's impression of a deity, the deity's archetype, the deity's prominent characteristics... and can be useful in prayer and ritual... but it is not the God(s).

III. I don't go out of my way to disrespect God(s)

IV. I embrace the solstices, the equinoxes, and their midpoints as profoundly sacred and holy. Aside from this, I constantly make time outside of those holy days to worship God(s).

V. I honor and respect my ancestors.

VI. If you must murder, be mindful of the extreme consequences and potential consequences of your actions. Do not murder the people you love and/ or respect unless you have no other choice.

VII. Cheating on people who expect monogomy could cause any parties involved all kinds of pain. If you must cheat, be mindful of the potential consequences.

VIII. If you must steal, be mindful of the consequences and potential consequences of your actions. Do not steal the people you love and/ or respect unless you have no other choice.

IX. Lying could have dire consequences. Be mindful of whether or not those potential consequences outweigh any potential benefits.

X. Do not let jealousy mess with your head and lead to rash behavior. Instead, turn it into a focused inspiration or motivation, with well thought out actions bringing about the desired results.

 

[Altfish]

So the 10 Commandments put simply are ...


1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image

3. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain

4. Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.

5. Honour thy father and thy mother

6. Thou shalt not kill.

7. Thou shalt not commit adultery.

8. Thou shalt not steal.

9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

10. Thou shalt not covet



1, 2, 3, 4 – only a very jealous and insecure god would worry about such things.

6, 8 – OK, but which society doesn’t have these laws, hardly ground breaking!

5, 7, 9 – sound good, but we either break them or pay lip service to them. Interestingly research has shown that divorce rates amongst Christians is higher than for non-believers. See...
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_dira.htm

10 – This is the basis of Western capitalism, consumerism! Virtually everyone breaks it. Don't you want a faster car, bigger TV, latest camera, etc. etc.?



Some other things which did not make it into the 10 Commandments

· The Golden Rule (I know it is in the Bible but that wasn't its first appearance, it pre-dates the Bible)

· Protection of children

· Slavery – do not ‘own’ other humans

· Do not discriminate

· Protecting the planet

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Some other things which did not make it into the 10 Commandments

· The Golden Rule (I know it is in the Bible but that wasn't its first appearance, it pre-dates the Bible)

· Protection of children

· Slavery – do not ‘own’ other humans

· Do not discriminate

· Protecting the planet

I find it to be very hilarious that the Satanic Bible states no rape, no harming children, no undue or unnecessary harm to non-human animals, and many other things that are far greater for living a "moral and just life" than what the Bible has.

 

[C-Faith]

You are assuming that your god exists..............

You can assume, but the bible speaks the truth (Hebrews 9: 27)

It's up to you and you alone......

 

[CG Didymus]

You can assume, but the bible speaks the truth (Hebrews 9: 27)

It's up to you and you alone......

I'd hate to have been stoned to death for breaking laws that didn't really matter. How about the people that did the stoning? They assumed the Bible was telling them the truth. If only they knew that after Jesus came, the Law wouldn't matter all that much. How about all the poor animals that got chopped to pieces? All those people assumed God wanted them to offer blood and burnt up meat to get their sins forgiven. To bad they didn't know all they had to do is ask Jesus to forgive them. I wonder how many people asked God directly to forgive them along with the sacrifice? I assume most of them, the animal sacrifice, I assume, was just for show.

 

[metis]

I'd hate to have been stoned to death for breaking laws that didn't really matter. How about the people that did the stoning? They assumed the Bible was telling them the truth. If only they knew that after Jesus came, the Law wouldn't matter all that much. How about all the poor animals that got chopped to pieces? All those people assumed God wanted them to offer blood and burnt up meat to get their sins forgiven. To bad they didn't know all they had to do is ask Jesus to forgive them. I wonder how many people asked God directly to forgive them along with the sacrifice? I assume most of them, the animal sacrifice, I assume, was just for show.

Are you a vegetarian?

 

[CG Didymus]

Are you a vegetarian?

There's a lot of these "commandment" threads aren't there. And yes, pretty much vegetarian. I have fish once in a long while. That's not a sin is it?

 

[Eliab ben Benjamin]

There's a lot of these "commandment" threads aren't there. And yes, pretty much vegetarian. I have fish once in a long while. That's not a sin is it?

Same here ...

 

[Tumah]

Even if 30 is referring to the goel hadam, the root r-tz-ch (if it means "murder") would be inappropriate. Calling killing a dead body not invoking liability still leaves me wondering why it would be labeled retzicha and categorized as extra-judicial when it is permissible.

I found an answer from the Malbim. It looks like he was also bothered by this. His answer is that its actually not talking about the goel hadam according to Rabi Yosi HaGlili but someone who thinks that he should act as the goel hadam. This is based on a rule that he has that when a word is repeated, one of those times can mean a close-but-not-exact translation.
His pshat.
His rule.

 

[metis]

There's a lot of these "commandment" threads aren't there. And yes, pretty much vegetarian. I have fish once in a long while. That's not a sin is it?

Yes, if you're a fish.