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Are there Reasonable Moral Grounds to Oppose Open Relationships and Marriages?

Reine

Member
agreed, but if a moral stance is based out of biological consiquneces is it worth more weight?
I would say that if biological consequences can be proved, it has moved from a moral stance to an objective stance with proof. You could say it has more wieght, but really I see people who live by their values and teach them to their children as having a great deal of wieght within themselves. I can't say one is 'better' than the others. Some things you don't need 'proof' for, and proof is not expectd for some types of stands we take. As far as the OP, I think to make it a legal stand you woul have to have proof, to make it a moral stand or a practical stand as suggestd by painted wolf, you can just disagree for your own standards.
 

Iti oj

Global warming is real and we need to act
Premium Member
I would say that if biological consequences can be proved, it has moved from a moral stance to an objective stance with proof..
why? what if one is a moral consiquntialist? so if the long term out come of something is -x ergo it is bad? Its still a moral.
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
Of course.. you are an objective thinker. I forgot, because I am a subjective idealist that sees things a little different than you. It's still the same conclusion I think.... some behaviors are damaging, so it is practical not to do them.
I'm subjective as well (no one is totally objective, unless they are a robot! In that case egads a sentient robot! :eek: )... but I try to understand my subjective thinking for what it is. A poor way to decide morality and laws that govern it.

That isn't to say I'm not also an idealist... :cool:

wa:do
 

Drolefille

PolyPanGeekGirl
I know... I was trying to see what all of you would say. I don't think open marriage is a good idea.. but I'm not too sure what it really is. Agreed upon sexual relations with those outside of the marriage?
Sometimes, generally some amount of this is the case. Whether such relationships are romantic as well as sexual may differ.

If that is what it is then I would be opposed to that in my own life, and in the lives of my kids.
My stand would be to try to discourrage them from that and look up statistics regarding it. I would never engage in it. I would not be afraid to state that I don't think it's a good idea. I would listen to anyone who experienced it and see what they had to say. After researching it, I don't think it should be illeagal, because although it may be damaging, it is too subjective to calculate - so I think strong discouragement would be a better option if signs point to 'it is a damaging behavior'.
All fair enough. So you would oppose it on a personal level. I think your definition of 'taking a stand' is a bit different than mine.

Yes, but my way of opposing them would not be to take a legal stand. I would oppose it on a personal level.
gotcha.
What you said about doing the right thing and raising your kids the right way being a stand is the stand I was referring to all along. Sorry I didn't point it out right away... I wanted it to come from you. This is the most important stand you will ever take in your life... the stand you live before your kids with a relationship to them.
I don't have kids nor am I in a hurry to have them. Similarly I would be proud to be in whatever kind of relationship I'm in in front of my kids, or my family, etc. because otherwise I wouldn't be in that relationship.

While I agree that we all live by our own beliefs, at no point have I seen you actually post a reasonable moral ground to oppose such relationships other than your own personal preference. Which is of course fine for personal opposition, but not grounds for a wider social statement, if you understand my meaning.
 

Reine

Member
why? what if one is a moral consiquntialist? so if the long term out come of something is -x ergo it is bad? Its still a moral.
You are right about that... then it would include both a moral stance and an objective stance.
 

Reine

Member
I'm subjective as well (no one is totally objective, unless they are a robot! In that case egads a sentient robot! :eek: )... but I try to understand my subjective thinking for what it is. A poor way to decide morality and laws that govern it.

That isn't to say I'm not also an idealist... :cool:

wa:do
Lol, some people are more objective than others.. and you struck me as one who is :) There are a whole lot of people that have not aquired the ability to be objective wtihin their personal development. For those people, I don't want to take their right to be heard away (although over subjectiveness annoys me :/) It's only fair to give them a way to express their feelings. I think this can be done with a personal stand, following it yourself and teaching it to your children. When something becomes a proven harmfull issue, it's time to take a legal stand.
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
Lol, some people are more objective than others.. and you struck me as one who is :) There are a whole lot of people that have not aquired the ability to be objective wtihin their personal development. For those people, I don't want to take their right to be heard away (although over subjectiveness annoys me :/) It's only fair to give them a way to express their feelings. I think this can be done with a personal stand, following it yourself and teaching it to your children. When something becomes a proven harmfull issue, it's time to take a legal stand.
Agreed. :D

wa:do
 

Reine

Member
Sometimes, generally some amount of this is the case. Whether such relationships are romantic as well as sexual may differ.

All fair enough. So you would oppose it on a personal level. I think your definition of 'taking a stand' is a bit different than mine.


gotcha.

I don't have kids nor am I in a hurry to have them. Similarly I would be proud to be in whatever kind of relationship I'm in in front of my kids, or my family, etc. because otherwise I wouldn't be in that relationship.

While I agree that we all live by our own beliefs, at no point have I seen you actually post a reasonable moral ground to oppose such relationships other than your own personal preference. Which is of course fine for personal opposition, but not grounds for a wider social statement, if you understand my meaning.
It's not something I have previously given any indepth thought to before, and I of course don't know the statistics of exactly how those relationships affect the family. i'll give you an answer though, based on my own subjective experiences as to why I think I would object at a personal level without further information.

1. In raising my son, I found there is a unique bond between mother and son. I know that he would be devestated as a little boy, and even now to see his mom with another man.
2. I think living out a relationship like that in front of my daughters would lead to excessive promiscuity in their future relationships.
3. I think that such a relationship would undermine their father, diminishing him in the eyes of all my children.
4. I would not want to pay child support for a child from another relationship.
5. I think the other woman would be hurt because she would always be playing second fiddle to me
6. I wouldn't want to risk sexual diseases.
7. My marriage is a partnership, emotionally, and finacially as we operate a business together. There is no room for a third party.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
It's not something I have previously given any indepth thought to before, and I of course don't know the statistics of exactly how those relationships affect the family. i'll give you an answer though, based on my own subjective experiences as to why I think I would object at a personal level without further information.

1. In raising my son, I found there is a unique bond between mother and son. I know that he would be devestated as a little boy, and even now to see his mom with another man.
Fair enough, though this isn't really much different from other socially accepted practices, like divorce and remarriage.

Also, I think this might be an issue of conditioning: a child raised to expect one thing will be stressed if something else occurs. By itself, this doesn't mean that either thing is bad in its own right.

2. I think living out a relationship like that in front of my daughters would lead to excessive promiscuity in their future relationships.
Why is this bad, necessarily? And how do you define "excessive" in this context?

3. I think that such a relationship would undermine their father, diminishing him in the eyes of all my children.
Why would that necessarily be the case?

4. I would not want to pay child support for a child from another relationship.
I don't think the law would require your husband to support a child that isn't his, but regardless, this is a risk that you would be in a very good position to mitigate yourself.

5. I think the other woman would be hurt because she would always be playing second fiddle to me
So? Maybe she's got a "first fiddle" of her own back home and isn't looking for another.

6. I wouldn't want to risk sexual diseases.
Fair point, but this is another risk that can be mitigated.

And technically, there's a risk of you catching an STD even by sleeping with your husband, even if he's entitrely faithful (though I think it's impossible to know with certainty whether someone actually is entirely faithful, so that question is a separate risk you're willing to live with, apparently). It's happened more than once that a person can get a disease by non-sexual means (e.g. bad blood transfusion, contact with bodily fluids of an infected person) and then pass it to a partner through intercourse.

Any difference in risk between an open marriage and a closed marriage is only one of degree.

Also, in some ways, an open marriage actually decreases risk in this department: if a person in a closed marriage gets an STD through an affair, he or she may be reluctant to change his or her sexual behaviour at home to avoid the spouse finding out about the affair (even though it puts the spouse at increased risk).

I mean, if your spouse said to you, "honey, we can't have sex for a few weeks because I just got diagnosed with chlamydia and the antibiotics need time to do their thing. Oh - and you should go get tested for it, too," I'm guessing that your next question would be something like "how the (bleep) did you get chlamidya?!"... right?

Anticipating a negative reaction might lead a spouse to never broach the subject at all, and continue in the couple's normal (and now unsafe) sexual routine and the spouse never to get tested until he or she starts displaying symptoms.

OTOH, an open marriage can, potentially, allow for better communication in these sorts of cases, which can reduce the risk to the non-infected spouse.
7. My marriage is a partnership, emotionally, and finacially as we operate a business together. There is no room for a third party.
If you're not into an open marriage for yourself, that's fine... I'm not sure I'd be interested in it for myself, either. But I do note that many businesses have more than two partners.
 

Reine

Member
Fair enough, though this isn't really much different from other socially accepted practices, like divorce and remarriage.

Also, I think this might be an issue of conditioning: a child raised to expect one thing will be stressed if something else occurs. By itself, this doesn't mean that either thing is bad in its own right.


Why is this bad, necessarily? And how do you define "excessive" in this context?


Why would that necessarily be the case?


I don't think the law would require your husband to support a child that isn't his, but regardless, this is a risk that you would be in a very good position to mitigate yourself.


So? Maybe she's got a "first fiddle" of her own back home and isn't looking for another.


Fair point, but this is another risk that can be mitigated.

And technically, there's a risk of you catching an STD even by sleeping with your husband, even if he's entitrely faithful (though I think it's impossible to know with certainty whether someone actually is entirely faithful, so that question is a separate risk you're willing to live with, apparently). It's happened more than once that a person can get a disease by non-sexual means (e.g. bad blood transfusion, contact with bodily fluids of an infected person) and then pass it to a partner through intercourse.

Any difference in risk between an open marriage and a closed marriage is only one of degree.

Also, in some ways, an open marriage actually decreases risk in this department: if a person in a closed marriage gets an STD through an affair, he or she may be reluctant to change his or her sexual behaviour at home to avoid the spouse finding out about the affair (even though it puts the spouse at increased risk).

I mean, if your spouse said to you, "honey, we can't have sex for a few weeks because I just got diagnosed with chlamydia and the antibiotics need time to do their thing. Oh - and you should go get tested for it, too," I'm guessing that your next question would be something like "how the (bleep) did you get chlamidya?!"... right?

Anticipating a negative reaction might lead a spouse to never broach the subject at all, and continue in the couple's normal (and now unsafe) sexual routine and the spouse never to get tested until he or she starts displaying symptoms.

OTOH, an open marriage can, potentially, allow for better communication in these sorts of cases, which can reduce the risk to the non-infected spouse.

If you're not into an open marriage for yourself, that's fine... I'm not sure I'd be interested in it for myself, either. But I do note that many businesses have more than two partners.
The types of businesses that have more than one partner are large businesses with enough traffic to make an extra partner necessary. I don't see the family as a large business.

I don't think children should be conditioned that everything else is bad (in fear), but that mom and dad have a secure good relationship. In my experience, children don't want outsiders comming into the family sharing an intimate role with their parents when they are growing up. It makes them feel less secure.

My girls have better self esteme than their friends who are having casual sex. Many of their friends are getting pregnant and having abortions in highschool already. They are unhappy and this unhappiness leads into adulthood and future relationships. This seems damaging to me, and by comparison the experiences I have had the oportunity to view tells me this is true.

What you are suggesting may work for some, but I woule take a personal stand against it in the best interest of my family, if the subject came up. I know in Alaska most women have two hubbies, because there is a shortage of women. If that works for them, good ... I don't see that working for me though.

I've had a couple of my son's friends ask if they could come visit me when my husband wasn't here ...(when they were over eighteen). If I go beyond the initial shock, and ask myself why that would be wrong, I guess it just seems so disloyal. Like... I want to have the comfort of our marriage, but I want to have sex with this younger man because although he seems like a mindlessly sex craving lunatic... I like his sex appeal better. It is so insulting, don't you think?
 

Drolefille

PolyPanGeekGirl
The types of businesses that have more than one partner are large businesses with enough traffic to make an extra partner necessary. I don't see the family as a large business.

I don't think children should be conditioned that everything else is bad (in fear), but that mom and dad have a secure good relationship. In my experience, children don't want outsiders comming into the family sharing an intimate role with their parents when they are growing up. It makes them feel less secure.
This is no different than a single parent who is dating. Yes, you protect children, but there are also long term and stable open/poly relationships that are not outsiders coming in and out of lives. And there are families where they have a very open idea of 'family' that includes friends and 'family by choice' and so weekends have houses full of friends who all also care about the kid(s) too.

My girls have better self esteme than their friends who are having casual sex.
Good for them. Some people have high self esteem and what you would consider casual sex.


Like... I want to have the comfort of our marriage, but I want to have sex with this younger man because although he seems like a mindlessly sex craving lunatic... I like his sex appeal better. It is so insulting, don't you think?
Only if you and he think it is so. Some guys will find that hot and enjoy the fact that you'd be enjoying yourself.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
The types of businesses that have more than one partner are large businesses with enough traffic to make an extra partner necessary. I don't see the family as a large business.
Neither do I. I just got the sense you were making an analogy, so I kinda ran with it. :)

I don't think children should be conditioned that everything else is bad (in fear), but that mom and dad have a secure good relationship. In my experience, children don't want outsiders comming into the family sharing an intimate role with their parents when they are growing up. It makes them feel less secure.
By "conditioning", I didn't mean "brainwashing". Every parent is going to end up teaching their children something about what's "normal"... by their own actions, if not by explicitly telling them. If, in the family environment you have, Mom or Dad dating implies that something's wrong, then the kids are going to pick up on the "something's wrong" vibe. OTOH, if you were to teach them that it's okay, I have a feeling that the kids would be okay with it.

And from what I know from speaking to people with open marriages, "open marriage" does not necessarily imply that Mom and Dad do not have a secure, good relationship.

And in any case, your objection here is a reason not to bring your dates home. It's not a reason not to date at all.

My girls have better self esteme than their friends who are having casual sex. Many of their friends are getting pregnant and having abortions in highschool already. They are unhappy and this unhappiness leads into adulthood and future relationships. This seems damaging to me, and by comparison the experiences I have had the oportunity to view tells me this is true.
OTOH, when people feel pressured into marriage because it's the only way they can have sex the "right" way, I think a fair bit of damage and unhappiness can result as well. The optimal situation is probably somewhere in between... and probably at a different point on the spectrum for each person.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
BTW, Reine - I'm not trying to suggest that you should make your own marriage an open one. Like I said earlier, I probably wouldn't want an open marriage myself*... but I see this as a personal preference, not a matter of morality.



*I could maybe see an exception in a situation where my spouse and I both mutually agree to bring another person into the relationship in some way, but I don't think I'd be into a situation of "we come home to each other at the end of the day, but you date who you want and I date who I want."
 

Reine

Member
This is no different than a single parent who is dating. Yes, you protect children, but there are also long term and stable open/poly relationships that are not outsiders coming in and out of lives. And there are families where they have a very open idea of 'family' that includes friends and 'family by choice' and so weekends have houses full of friends who all also care about the kid(s) too.


Good for them. Some people have high self esteem and what you would consider casual sex.



Only if you and he think it is so. Some guys will find that hot and enjoy the fact that you'd be enjoying yourself.
doh.gif
... do you know of any?

Casual sex, ... sex that is friends with benefits or one night stands. But, I should have also said girls who are having sex with their boyfriends. Many of these young girls feel that once they have sex with a boy, they have to continue it or he will stop liking them.

... and I wasn't referring to a house of caring friends, but bringing people into the family that have an intimate relationship in front of the kids. I think this would be rather stressfull for the kids. But this may not be true in every case, ... probably for most.
 

Averroes

Active Member
After reading all these pages I still don't find (in what others have explained here) any moral benefit to open relationships....
 

Reine

Member
Neither do I. I just got the sense you were making an analogy, so I kinda ran with it. :)


By "conditioning", I didn't mean "brainwashing". Every parent is going to end up teaching their children something about what's "normal"... by their own actions, if not by explicitly telling them. If, in the family environment you have, Mom or Dad dating implies that something's wrong, then the kids are going to pick up on the "something's wrong" vibe. OTOH, if you were to teach them that it's okay, I have a feeling that the kids would be okay with it.

And from what I know from speaking to people with open marriages, "open marriage" does not necessarily imply that Mom and Dad do not have a secure, good relationship.

And in any case, your objection here is a reason not to bring your dates home. It's not a reason not to date at all.


OTOH, when people feel pressured into marriage because it's the only way they can have sex the "right" way, I think a fair bit of damage and unhappiness can result as well. The optimal situation is probably somewhere in between... and probably at a different point on the spectrum for each person.
I'm not sure that the majority of kids would be OK with it, and that is probalbly due to the way our whole society operates. When kids are small, they may be OK with it, if the other person/people involved are the same people that interact with the kids. Otherwise kids look at it as the person is taking their parent away from them. Generally, households aren't big enough for a bunch of people in the house all the time, and showers to get ready for work, doing laundry, meals, trying to keep a place clean with that many people using the house and stuff. Then when kids are school age they begin to question their parents relationhsip, how they first met and stuff. Then they ask questions about cheating and stuff they hear from their friends. I think it would be a confusing situation for a kid just becomming old enough to date. As far as not bringing your dates home, kids arn't dumb ... it's best not to hide stuff in the first place than be caught looking dishonest. Your kids will feel betrayed.

I think when a relationship ends after people have been sexually intimate it is much harder.
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
doh.gif
... do you know of any?

Casual sex, ... sex that is friends with benefits or one night stands. But, I should have also said girls who are having sex with their boyfriends. Many of these young girls feel that once they have sex with a boy, they have to continue it or he will stop liking them.
Young girls and grown women are very different things. This is about consenting adults, not young girls.

And I know a few very self confident grown women who are not ashamed of enjoying casual sexual relationships with men. They don't have sex because they don't think men will like them, they have sex because they enjoy having sex.

... and I wasn't referring to a house of caring friends, but bringing people into the family that have an intimate relationship in front of the kids. I think this would be rather stressfull for the kids. But this may not be true in every case, ... probably for most.
If that were true would it be such a common cultural practice?

wa:do
 

Drolefille

PolyPanGeekGirl
doh.gif
... do you know of any?
My boyfriend thinks my other relationships are awesome. His wife thinks his relationship with me is awesome. And so on.

Casual sex, ... sex that is friends with benefits or one night stands. But, I should have also said girls who are having sex with their boyfriends. Many of these young girls feel that once they have sex with a boy, they have to continue it or he will stop liking them.
Which is an issue independent of open relationships. There's not a lot of research on open relationships out there, but there's none at the moment that indicate any harm to children exposed to them.

Also it must be pointed out that the majority of those girls you know of probably have monogamous parents, in name at least. Serial monogamy and cheating are both things that make monogamous a bit more monogamish.

... and I wasn't referring to a house of caring friends, but bringing people into the family that have an intimate relationship in front of the kids. I think this would be rather stressfull for the kids. But this may not be true in every case, ... probably for most.
What do you mean by the bolded, sex in front of kids? Obviously not ok. A random string of people in and out, also not ok, the same as it wouldn't be ok with a single parent dating one person at time to constantly bring that kind of unrest into children's lives.

But as pointed out, that happens in monogamous relationships, not just polyamorous or open ones. You're assuming that an open relationship = open casual sex where in reality there are a wide variety of relationship styles.
After reading all these pages I still don't find (in what others have explained here) any moral benefit to open relationships....
I think open relationships are as a whole, morally neutral. I feel the same about monogamous relationships.

For someone who is unsatisfied with one partner, and open relationship can be beneficial because they will be able to have intimate relationships, but not harm others by cheating or lying about his or her ability to be monogamous. For people who are completely or primarily satisfied by one partner, then monogamy or monogam-ish relationships may work best for them. They wouldn't necessarily feel happy involved in an open relationship.

So I suppose I could argue a moral benefit, but I don't actually think it's necessary to have one because relationships only have moral value to me in their ethical and honest nature, not the shape of the relationship itself.
 

Iti oj

Global warming is real and we need to act
Premium Member
You are right about that... then it would include both a moral stance and an objective stance.
So we established that if a reasonable moral stance against an open relationship and marriges( does the op mean and/or?) were to exist the morality would have to be derived from a consiquential/objective/biological point. Now back to the ops post,
Are there any reasonable moral grounds to oppose open relationships and marriages? If so what are those reasonable moral grounds?
yes a moral stance based off of a consiquential/objective/biological point would be reasonable. Does this cover all questions or do i need to come up with possible examples? can they be theortical?
 

Reine

Member
BTW, Reine - I'm not trying to suggest that you should make your own marriage an open one. Like I said earlier, I probably wouldn't want an open marriage myself*... but I see this as a personal preference, not a matter of morality.



*I could maybe see an exception in a situation where my spouse and I both mutually agree to bring another person into the relationship in some way, but I don't think I'd be into a situation of "we come home to each other at the end of the day, but you date who you want and I date who I want."
I know... I gotcha :) I see our conversation as one of looking for truth. I think we are both hitting on a few different ones. I also see it as a matter of personal preference, but I think that it becomes a moral issue if it is damaging to the family unit. I don't really know of any cases of open marriages... only other cultures where women are corralled together and owned like property. I've seen things on TV indicating they are really unhappy. Also Mormons, and I have seen things on TV (true stories) where they are like prisoners of their husband.

When you say bring a third person into the relationship in some way, what way do you mean? Would they live with you, or would you just spend one week a month away from home?
 
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