Are you a Fan or a Follower of Jesus?

[Sultan Of Swing]

I'm a fan of the mystery surrounding Yeshua.

What is your faith, exactly?

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

I think thats a great explanation but seems also to be a rationalization. I do not see christians trying to do this. Maybe they put $10 in the collection plate or pay a tithe to the church but they are clearly not trying to love everyone equally. There is not so much as an attempt so far as I can tell. They have houses, cars, jobs, families and their own personal concerns. Church is fun to talk about and debate people with but they are not giving up everything in some attempt to love everyone equally. I just don't see it happening.

I'm not saying its my expectation. But your explanation is meh... Thats what jesus wants us to try for... if you can do it and he knows you can't... so don't worry... make some efforts here and there when you can which seems a far cry from following his most important commandments.

When I was a witness we didn't have birthday parties because that would be putting ourselves ahead of god if only for an hour or a day. (Actually thats a short form version of the encyclopedia of reasons I could list.)

The point being trying to love our neighbors as ourselves is of tantamount importance. The only thing more important is loving god.

How does buying a car serve that purpose compared with say walking or taking the bus/train when needed? How does buying a house for the exclusive and private use of your personal family serve your neighbors well?

I don't think there is anything wrong with doing these things but I think there is a particular cognitive dissonance that christians buy into. Well if it feels too awkward and too odd then jesus doesnt expect you to do it and will forgive you.

And of course he will. He died for you. For everyone. (Even his fans)

We are not perfect.

Those Christians who do not try hard enough to follow His ideals, well, are not trying hard enough. There is no justification for why they are not following his teachings, but it does not mean that they are doing as God would want them to do.

There is nothing wrong with having wealth, as long as it does not lead one into temptation and as long as that person uses their money well. Some interpret Jesus' teachings as having no monetary value at all, but completely emotional. So, be kind to everyone you meet, and loving to everyone you meet, but throwing money at everyone isn't necessary. However, I believe in both, but I do not think that any material wealth that God may have blessed us with has to be shared out with the world.

Jesus certainly did not want us to follow His teachings "here and there". That is a failure on our part. We should be trying to emulate Jesus and trying to follow Him as best we can. After all, it is indeed one of the greatest commandments, and to ignore it would be folly.

Christians that half-heartedly give and do not really help their neighbour are not following Jesus' teachings properly. These are failures on our part, that will be forgiven by God. Our desire for self-indulgence often clouds our minds, but that does not stop many from being extremely righteous and generous in what they do.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

hahaha. this is really funny.
and I do mean it with good humour. christianity has been used for selfish reasons all through history.
it is still the same christianity.
selfish and colonialist.

most of the troops and commanders taking part in these two episodes are and were fierce believers.
the politics of europe, has remained christian. and will remain christian.
it is puritanical, decayed, old men politics, with a very low sperm count.

Where, tell me where, in the core beliefs of Christianity is there any selfishness or colonialism?

You cannot generalise or pretend to understand a religion based on events which have no relevance to the beliefs set down by the religion.

Terrorism. It gives us a good insight into Muslim extremism, but it does not give us a good insight into the whole of Islam.

The Crusades. It gives us a good insight into the folly of people of that time, and how religion can be warped to fit the will of "holy" people in order to justify horrible evils. It does not give us a good insight into Christianity though, however. Anything which gives us an insight into a warped version of the truth, will not give us the truth.

 

[Caladan]

Where, tell me where, in the core beliefs of Christianity is there any selfishness or colonialism?

You cannot generalise or pretend to understand a religion based on events which have no relevance to the beliefs set down by the religion.

First thing. the core beliefs of christianity are various.
however if you want to pin them down on love thy neighbour. then christianity as a political system in this world hasnt done a good job at all to living up to this one simple ideal.
and I CAN certainly generalise about the vast and long lasting actions of christians and the christian authorities in our world. because actions speak louder than words and certainly louder than beliefs. it can be quite an indication or even a revelation that what christians have claimed to believe is not what they choose to act on.

Terrorism. It gives us a good insight into Muslim extremism, but it does not give us a good insight into the whole of Islam.

do you really have a good insight into the whole of Islam?
do you?
I am sure many of us can give you very decent lessons about this.

The Crusades. It gives us a good insight into the folly of people of that time, and how religion can be warped to fit the will of "holy" people in order to justify horrible evils. It does not give us a good insight into Christianity though, however. Anything which gives us an insight into a warped version of the truth, will not give us the truth.

really. of course. how foolish and vain of me. because as we all know, pope Urban II, the kings, the feudals, the common peasants, and the soldiers for hire were all buddhists.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

First thing. the core beliefs of christianity are various.
however if you want to pin them down on love thy neighbour. then christianity as a political system in this world hasnt done a good job at all to living up to this one simple ideal.
and I CAN certainly generalise about the vast and long lasting actions of christians and the christian authorities in our world. because actions speak louder than words and certainly louder than beliefs. it can be quite an indication or even a revelation that what christians have claimed to believe is not what they choose to act on.

And this is not what Jesus would want. If we do not act on what we believe, then we are not following these beliefs. There are many Christians that DO follow what they believe. You cannot choose what you want to look at as being a Christian, and filter out anyone that actually is a Christian.

do you really have a good insight into the whole of Islam?
do you?
I am sure many of us can give you very decent lessons about this.

I said it did not give us a good insight into the whole of Islam.

really. of course. how foolish and vain of me. because as we all know, pope Urban II, the kings, the feudals, the common peasants, and the soldiers for hire were all buddhists.

No. They were men who followed their own selfish ideals and used Christianity as the scapegoat for their atrocities.

 

[Caladan]

And this is not what Jesus would want. If we do not act on what we believe, then we are not following these beliefs. There are many Christians that DO follow what they believe. You cannot choose what you want to look at as being a Christian, and filter out anyone that actually is a Christian.

I am a generalist. and I have never denied this simple fact.
if there are christians who live up to their ideals. its all good. kosher or halal.
but I am more interested in the political systems of this world, the social orders, the central religious orders, and the political orders.
because what various christian citizens do with themselves is not as relevant as the bigger social constructs.

I said it did not give us a good insight into the whole of Islam.

sure, it doesnt.

No. They were men who followed their own selfish ideals and used Christianity as the scapegoat for their atrocities.

look. we've all heard this before. not a true jew, not a true muslim, not a true christian. im sorry to be the one who probably tells you this for the one thousand time. but when a man or a woman adhere to christianity, what would you call them? imposters?
who is the greater authority on this earth to discern for the rest of us, who is a true believer and who is not?
after all we are all following our own ideals and interests. and non are better than the other.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

I am a generalist. and I have never denied this simple fact about me.
if there are christians who live up to their ideals. its all good. kosher or halal.
but I am more interested in the political systems of this world, the social orders, the central religious orders, and the political orders.
because what various christian citizens do with themselves is not as relevant as the bigger social constructs.

I agree with you on this. The whole of Christianity often does have a negative light, and it is often the fault of individual Christians and authorities which call themselves "Christian". They do not follow the true teachings of Christ, and it saddens me that they have made Christianity into a religion that is hated in many places of the world.

look. we've all heard this before. not a true jew, not a true muslim, not a true christian. im sorry to be the one who probably tells you this for the one thousand time. but when a man or a woman adhere to christianity, what would you call them? imposters?
who is the greater authority on this earth to discern for the rest of us, who is a true believer and who is not?

Yes, I understand. People around the world are labelling themselves as "Christians", and thus dampening and harming our true beliefs and values. It's been good debating with you, Caladan. I understand more now some of the irretrievable damage my religion has caused, especially in the Middle East. The Middle East's skeptical view of the West and Christianity is not helped by Christian fanatics, Qur'an burners, aggressive proselytisers, Islamophobes, Anti-semitists, and all the sorry bunch of people who follow their own selfish desires and label themselves as "Christian" in a sorry attempt to justify their actions.

after all we are all following our own ideals and interests. and non are better than the other.

I disagree with this. We don't all follow our own ideals and interests. There are quite a few Christians who follow the Bible to the letter. They do not act out of personal interest or value, but rather strive to be as good a Christian as they can. Sadly, I am not one of those people. But still, my beliefs in Christianity do not follow any of my personal interests and ideals. Sometimes there will be something I would really like to do, but because of my beliefs I know that it is wrong, and so I somehow restrain myself from doing it. That is not acting out of self-interest or personal ideals.

 

[Twig pentagram]

What is your faith, exactly?

I place my faith in myself, my perception of reality, and the power of positive thinking.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

I place my faith in myself ,my perception of reality, and the power of positive thinking.

Nice. So, what do you define as the "mystery of Yeshuwah"? Why does it appeal to you?

 

[blackout]

Caladan is right.
Christianity and most mainstream religions,
are all tied up in politics, and world events.

Even just here in the USA,
Christians are VERY vocal politically,
and they vote their religious beliefs
against the rest of us,
who do not uphold their religious beliefs,
in an attempt to enFORCE the
socio political christian agenda
on the rest of us.

Then when the morons they elect
in the name of this christian issue or that,
start wars all over the globe,
in the name of their own pet issues,
the world percieves them as a Christian leader.
Why? Thousands of Christians voted in this Christian leader,
over Christian issues.
The Christian voters, voted in a Christian leader.

How else is everyone supposed to look at it?

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

Caladan is right.
Christianity and most mainstream religions,
are all tied up in politics, and world events.

Even just here in the USA,
Christians are VERY vocal politically,
and they vote their religious beliefs
against the rest of us,
who do not uphold their religious beliefs,
in an attempt to enFORCE the
socio political christian agenda
on the rest of us.

Then when the morons they elect
in the name of this christian issue or that,
start wars all over the globe,
in the name of their own pet issues,
the world percieves them as a Christian leader.
Why? Thousands of Christians voted in this Christian leader,
over Christian issues.
The Christian voters, voted in a Christian leader.

How else is everyone supposed to look at it?

I know, I know. It's a shame. I don't care what these people are doing, but to label themselves as Christians angers me, simply because it repels so many other people around the world away from Christianity.

 

[Twig pentagram]

Nice. So, what do you define as the "mystery of Yeshuwah"? Why does it appeal to you?

Yeshua is a very mysterious figure. There's the son of a deity angle or the prophet of a deity angle. You also have the dark magician stories and the religious fanatic stories. You have those who believes he was the messiah and you have those who do not. In some ciphers his actual existence is even up for debate and in others he is the creator of the universe. The legend of Yeshua is very broad and that's why it appeals to me.

 

[blackout]

I know, I know. It's a shame. I don't care what these people are doing, but to label themselves as Christians angers me, simply because it repels so many other people around the world away from Christianity.

If they weren't christians,
they wouldn't vote in leaders
just because they were anti gay marriage,
or staunch anti abortion
or against stem cell research.

Just who is it you feel deserves to don the 'Christian' label?

 

[Caladan]

I know, I know. It's a shame. I don't care what these people are doing, but to label themselves as Christians angers me, simply because it repels so many other people around the world away from Christianity.

I dont understand why it annoys believers so much.
I am much more interested in spicy individuals than laid back peace makers.
give me caesar over jesus any day and saladin over rumi.
you can discuss politics with the veterans, not so much with those people who think the rest of us have never experienced peace nor know the meaning of peace.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

If they weren't christians,
they wouldn't vote in leaders
just because they were anti gay marriage,
or staunch anti abortion
or against stem cell research.

Just who is it you feel deserves to don the 'Christian' label?

Meh, I cannot say who deserves anything. I just don't like it when people are repelled from Christianity due to false beliefs.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

I dont understand why it annoys believers so much.
I am much more interested in spicy individuals than laid back peace makers.
give me caesar over jesus any day and saladin over rumi.
you can discuss politics with the veterans and the decision makers, not so much with those people who think the rest of us have never experienced peace nor know the meaning of peace.

Spiciness is overrated.

 

[Caladan]

Spiciness is overrated.

hahahaha
not in the middle east it isnt.

 

[sky dancer]

Where, tell me where, in the core beliefs of Christianity is there any selfishness or colonialism?

You cannot generalise or pretend to understand a religion based on events which have no relevance to the beliefs set down by the religion.

Terrorism. It gives us a good insight into Muslim extremism, but it does not give us a good insight into the whole of Islam.

The Crusades. It gives us a good insight into the folly of people of that time, and how religion can be warped to fit the will of "holy" people in order to justify horrible evils. It does not give us a good insight into Christianity though, however. Anything which gives us an insight into a warped version of the truth, will not give us the truth.

The core beliefs of Christianity are not about selfishness. Some evangelicals proselytize for selfish reasons.

 

[sky dancer]

I know, I know. It's a shame. I don't care what these people are doing, but to label themselves as Christians angers me, simply because it repels so many other people around the world away from Christianity.

Problem is, they do label themselves as Christians.

How are the rest of us supposed to know the difference? Here's how I know the difference in you. You respect others beliefs as much as your own.

For the most part, I get along well with Christians in my community. We connect on the level of the heart as human beings, and in service to the community. What we don't do, is debate our respective differences. It seems I only do that on forums. I can't say this is necessarily a good thing, but it does let me know how much more healing I have to do about my religious upbringing.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

For example, you see a homeless man on the street. In an act of love, you then decide to let them stay with you for a couple of nights or give them a fairly large sum of money. While you haven't equally divided your wealth or tried to make the man as wealthy as you are, you are still following the ideals by which Jesus laid down.

Really? It seems to me that this is exactly the sort of behaviour that didn't impress Jesus.

Luke 21:1-4:

1 As Jesus looked up, he saw the rich putting their gifts into the temple treasury. 2 He also saw a poor widow put in two very small copper coins. 3 “Truly I tell you,” he said, “this poor widow has put in more than all the others. 4 All these people gave their gifts out of their wealth; but she out of her poverty put in all she had to live on.”

IMO, Jesus preached an extreme sort of faith. I don't see how it's possible to live a comfortable life while earnestly following his teachings expressed in the Gospels as best as one can.