Are you a liar?

[sayak83]

I prefer Dharmic religion as well. They just seem more honest and while I still don’t agree with them 100%, they clearly thought things out more. I like how Gods must also not screw up or They get demoted. That kind of personal responsibility is refreshing.

Dharmic religions are so diverse that it would be difficult to agree 100% with them and still be consistent. But I agree with you that their positions and worldviews are far more nuanced and thought provoking than many other traditions.

 

[Truth&Hope]

The evangelist John asks a very challenging question in his first epistle (1 John 2:22). He asks, 'Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ?

He goes on to say, 'He is an anti-christ, that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father:'

Strong words from a man who preached a God of love!

But, how does one arrive at the position that a man is a liar if he denies that Jesus is Christ? I guess the opening premise is that God is Truth [Deut. 32:4 etc]. From here one can reasonably deduce that God's Word is true, and that Christ, coming from God, is the Word of God [Rev. 19:13]. If this be the case, then a denial of Christ is a denial of truth [John 14:6]. To deny truth is to make truth a lie. Is this, therefore, the unforgivable sin?

Christ deniers really have no rock to stand on when 'truth' becomes a victim, as happens in war. Where is the hope of justice if there is no God to hear your cry? If your daughter is raped and murdered by soldiers, or your son tortured, tied and shot in the back of the head, how do you respond? Hate and seek revenge? Add your vitriol to the great hell of war? Seek justice from courts that may never provide justice? Give up on life itself, with no hope of glory?

I'm with Paul, who said, 'For me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.' [Phil.1:21]

Word!!!
My favorite scripture Philippians 3:8
“ I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatest of knowing Christ Jesus our Lord for whose sake I have lost all thing. I consider them rubbish that I may gain Christ.”

 

[Truth&Hope]

To lie means to intentionally, knowingly say something false. Many people in the world honestly do not believe Jesus is the Messiah. Even if they're wrong, that doesn't make them liars.

What kind of unjust deity would punish people for the thought crime of honestly believing/not believing something?

If He doesn’t exist to you, than He doesn’t exist. He is offering every human a “gift” The gift, so it’s free. You can choose to accept the gift or reject it. So, if you reject it, you don’t still get the gift. You can’t say, “God I reject you, but please take me to Heaven when I die” Rejecting Christ is rejecting unforgivable and the only unforgivable sin. You basically damned yourself.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Genesis 26:5

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

To be a Disciple of Yeshua Messiah/Jesus Christ you must do everything he does. Amen! Yeshua/Jesus Practiced and Fulfilled the Law and you must do likewise to be a Disciple. Abraham practiced Laws and Statutes.

I don't disagree, but it's the Spirit of Christ we should walk by, not the letter of the law.

Israel failed to live by the covenant made at Sinai because they were attempting to do so by self righteousness, not the righteousness of God (by faith).

 

[Elihoenai]

Exists in what way?

And offer the facts and coherent explanation of these facts that demonstrate your claim is true.


You seem to have adopted some ideas from some form of Christianity that is derived from the Bible in a way that takes it seriously, if not literally to some degree.

So assuming the Devil actually exists, what purpose has it served for God to create this being when it only causes problems? Seems to have been a huge error for the aims God wants.

Can you acknowledge that it's more reasonable to interpret God and the Devil as metaphors for the good and bad moral drives that humans have? The struggle of good and evil in religious stories can be easily interpreted as the internal struggle many of we morals have. The literal interpretation that we mortals are spectators in a world that a God created that includes God creating evil doesn't really make any sense IF this God is supposed to be smart, wise, and moral. It's like dumping buckets of termites in a house you are building because you want to see the struggle between the pest control company and the bugs. And neither ever win.

1) The Devil/Satan is the Totally Devoted Adversary of Elohim/God. You will find this to be Fact through experience when you See and/or practice the Truth.

2) The struggle between Good and Evil is an Internal and External Struggle/War/Battle.

To my mind the literalist interpretation of the Bible God MAKES God the sinner, for creating evil. This tends to confuse true believers quite a bit. It's an absurdity to interpret this way. And I suggest it is the literalist interpretation that IS the Devil being represented in this religious approach.

Do you follow me here? I'm suggesting that the more a Christian tries to interpret the Bible and related Christian concepts literally the MORE it creates evil as an attitude, which is represented by the idea of the Devil. So the more rigid the believer, the more of the Devil they becomes. The more of a hellish state they create for themselves.

To my mind the way to the truth is to let go the temptation for an final and absolute truth, and this means let go the literalist interpretation. A symbolic interpretation of Christians concepts works vastly better. It actually challenges the self to work towards living a heavenly state versus a hellish state. The heavenly state is one of virtues, tolerance, love, openness, charity, etc. And the cellist state is one of vice and absolutism, greed, condemnation, intolerance, closed mindedness, etc. The salvation to the heavenly state is the self AS SAVIOR finding a path towards a less dogmatic and rigid mind, to a more open and fluid approach.

I know this doesn't appeal to the believer's superficial needs and the ego, but that is part of the struggle. It's easy to adopt a set of religious concepts from others and then apply them as an agent. It's hard to rise above this temptation.

@F1fan Can you see that you are being Hypocritical and Contradicting yourself? You are being Dogmatic about being Liberal. Everyone is dogmatic when they stick to a position.

The Literalist Interpretation is for the Earthly Church that most of 2.2 Billions of Christians in Christendom are members. The Christian Earthly Church has Domination over the Whole World.

 

[Elihoenai]

But then scripture is a lie because men wrote it

2 Timothy 3:16

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

All Scripture is Inspired and Written by Elohim/God. Empty vessels were used as vehicles for spreading Elohim's/God's Word.

 

[Elihoenai]

I don't disagree, but it's the Spirit of Christ we should walk by, not the letter of the law.

Israel failed to live by the covenant made at Sinai because they were attempting to do so by self righteousness, not the righteousness of God (by faith).

You sited Yeshua/Jesus and Abraham and you reject the idea of doing what they did by observing Laws and Statues. Have you considered that if a person fails to do the requirements of a Disciple of Yeshua Messiah/Jesus Christ they are an Unbeliever? There is a Standard that defines the meaning of True Discipleship.

 

[Left Coast]

If He doesn’t exist to you, than He doesn’t exist. He is offering every human a “gift” The gift, so it’s free. You can choose to accept the gift or reject it. So, if you reject it, you don’t still get the gift. You can’t say, “God I reject you, but please take me to Heaven when I die” Rejecting Christ is rejecting unforgivable and the only unforgivable sin. You basically damned yourself.

Is that how you'll feel if some other non-Christian God is the one who actually exists and sends you to hell for not believing in the right one?

 

[Redemptionsong]

You sited Yeshua/Jesus and Abraham and you reject the idea of doing what they did by observing Laws and Statues. Have you considered that if a person fails to do the requirements of a Disciple of Yeshua Messiah/Jesus Christ they are an Unbeliever? There is a Standard that defines the meaning of True Discipleship.

The Gospel of grace does not deny the doing of the moral law! Wherever did you get that idea from?

Paul, in his teaching makes it clear that the law is good, but that sin prevents man from doing the law. It takes a change in Spirit to enable a man to do the law.

Romans 10:1-4.

 

[F1fan]

1) The Devil/Satan is the Totally Devoted Adversary of Elohim/God. You will find this to be Fact through experience when you See and/or practice the Truth.

So you are suggesting a practice of something that isn't fact-based will allow a person to form a special mental state that will interpret stories as if real, true, and factual.

This isn't acceptable. The facts need to be available to stable, aware, and rational minds. You essentially admit a person needs to have a distorted view of reality. Any religious person can do this for any religious concepts. So your method is rejected as being too subjective and delusional.

2) The struggle between Good and Evil is an Internal and External Struggle/War/Battle.

From a psychological and sociological perspective, yes, there are struggles with right and wrong.

Can you see that you are being Hypocritical and Contradicting yourself?

No, I can't see it. And given your suggestion about "truth" is about distorting reality I doubt you see it either. But feel free to offer your assessment.

You are being Dogmatic about being Liberal. Everyone is dogmatic when they stick to a position.

Not necessarily. I am a liberal as a category because my views are driven by empathy, fairness, compassion, progress, equality, and other virtues. I also see the corruption in conservatism today, much of it opposed to democracy, fairness, honesty, equality, etc. Conservatism offers nothing for people of integrity these days.

I'm not using liberal as a label to define myself. I am defined by my views and that happens to put me in the category of liberal.

The Literalist Interpretation is for the Earthly Church that most of 2.2 Billions of Christians in Christendom are members. The Christian Earthly Church has Domination over the Whole World.

Yet not all Christians interpret the Bible literally. The vast majority of Christians today have adopted the traditional interpretation of an actual Jesus, and actual execution, actual salvation, etc. Yet the story is implausible, and absurd if it was true.

 

[Elihoenai]

The Gospel of grace does not deny the doing of the moral law! Wherever did you get that idea from?

Paul, in his teaching makes it clear that the law is good, but that sin prevents man from doing the law. It takes a change in Spirit to enable a man to do the law.

Romans 10:1-4.

Jude 4

4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.


Now we are making progress. Therefore, you are saying that you don't have license to Commit Sins, such as, Adultery. Is that correct?

The Churches in Christendom are full with Licentious Christians.

 

[Elihoenai]

So you are suggesting a practice of something that isn't fact-based will allow a person to form a special mental state that will interpret stories as if real, true, and factual.

This isn't acceptable. The facts need to be available to stable, aware, and rational minds. You essentially admit a person needs to have a distorted view of reality. Any religious person can do this for any religious concepts. So your method is rejected as being too subjective and delusional.

You asked for Facts about the Devil/Satan existing. You get the Facts through personal experience given that you See and/or practice the Truth. You don't know my Interpretation of Scripture. It's not mainstream Christianity and I'm not part of mainstream Christianity.

From a psychological and sociological perspective, yes, there are struggles with right and wrong.

It's a Spiritual War.

Not necessarily. I am a liberal as a category because my views are driven by empathy, fairness, compassion, progress, equality, and other virtues. I also see the corruption in conservatism today, much of it opposed to democracy, fairness, honesty, equality, etc. Conservatism offers nothing for people of integrity these days.

I'm not using liberal as a label to define myself. I am defined by my views and that happens to put me in the category of liberal.

You are Dogmatic in your position. The same that you are accusing Christians as being.

Yet not all Christians interpret the Bible literally. The vast majority of Christians today have adopted the traditional interpretation of an actual Jesus, and actual execution, actual salvation, etc. Yet the story is implausible, and absurd if it was true.

There are Christians that have non-literal interpretations of the Bible. The Dominate Force in Christianity that rules the World is the Roman Catholic Church. This is the Christian Earthly Church.

 

[F1fan]

You asked for Facts about the Devil/Satan existing.

You didn't provide facts. You suggested a person be absorbed in your type of religious dogma to a degree that the person can't discern reality from fantasy.

You get the Facts through personal experience given that you See and/or practice the Truth.

That isn't truth, that is self-deception.

You don't know my Interpretation of Scripture. It's not mainstream Christianity and I'm not part of mainstream Christianity.

I see your beliefs which are show how you have adopted a specific Christian view and interpretation. It is notably absorbed in a fantastic and non-factual framework. You've failed to meet the criteria of providing facts and truth, as these have to be available to a rational mind that has no conditions or interpretations or assumptions.

It's a Spiritual War.

Theists don't seem any better to win it than non-believers. From what we observe theists often disagree and express a confused set of options. For example in this discussion there are three Christians who don't agree with each other over the "truth". We atheists watch Christians debate and disagree amongst themselves, and are wise enough to know not to take the claims any of you make as is. This is why we require facts and a coherent explanation.

You are Dogmatic in your position. The same that you are accusing Christians as being.

False. And it is an odd accusation because you are criticizing me as being dogmatic while you actually ARE dogmatic in your religious beliefs. My views on politics and social issues are pragmatic and the solutions I offer are plausible, real, and fact-based. Your religious views are non-rational, implausible, purely dogmatic, and offer no practical effect on life.

If dogma is so bad and so wrong why are you so deeply absorbed in dogma? In psychology this is called projection. Perhaps take the plank out of your eye.

There are Christians that have non-literal interpretations of the Bible. The Dominate Force in Christianity that rules the World is the Roman Catholic Church. This is the Christian Earthly Church.

yea, a lot of division under the umbrella of Christianity. Some 44,000 different sects, from very liberal to extremists like the KKK. All believed they are saved by the same Jesus.

 

[Elihoenai]

I see your beliefs which are show how you have adopted a specific Christian view and interpretation. It is notably absorbed in a fantastic and non-factual framework. You've failed to meet the criteria of providing facts and truth, as these have to be available to a rational mind that has no conditions or interpretations or assumptions.

Yes, I have Christian view and interpretation, although it's not mainstream.

Theists don't seem any better to win it than non-believers. From what we observe theists often disagree and express a confused set of options. For example in this discussion there are three Christians who don't agree with each other over the "truth". We atheists watch Christians debate and disagree amongst themselves, and are wise enough to know not to take the claims any of you make as is. This is why we require facts and a coherent explanation.

The Theists have Won. @F1fan They control your Atheists thinking. The Devil/Satan either makes Failed Christians in the Churches or Atheists such as yourself.

There are disagreement also within congregations of every Church. This is because the original teaching of the Church has been lost.

False. And it is an odd accusation because you are criticizing me as being dogmatic while you actually ARE dogmatic in your religious beliefs. My views on politics and social issues are pragmatic and the solutions I offer are plausible, real, and fact-based. Your religious views are non-rational, implausible, purely dogmatic, and offer no practical effect on life.

If dogma is so bad and so wrong why are you so deeply absorbed in dogma? In psychology this is called projection. Perhaps take the plank out of your eye.

It appears you are not listening. I will repeat: You cannot be a True Christian without being an Extremist. You are Totally Devoted, otherwise you are not a Christian. Being Dogmatic is a requirement to being a Real Christian. Did you watch this insightful video lecture I posted:

America's Advents - Professor Alec Ryrie

@F1fan It doesn't matter whether your beliefs are fantasises or based in reality, you hold a Dogmatic position.

yea, a lot of division under the umbrella of Christianity. Some 44,000 different sects, from very liberal to extremists like the KKK. All believed they are saved by the same Jesus.

That's correct. And, there is only one Truth.

 

[F1fan]

If He doesn’t exist to you, than He doesn’t exist. He is offering every human a “gift” The gift, so it’s free. You can choose to accept the gift or reject it. So, if you reject it, you don’t still get the gift.

So Jesus is dormant in this scenario. The gift is as if it’s on a table ready to pick up. Done deal. If you don’t act and accept the gift you are not saved. So your path to salvation is you, your own act. Not Jesus as he’s already done his part.

So the savior is any of us accepting the gift.

You can’t say, “God I reject you, but please take me to Heaven when I die” Rejecting Christ is rejecting unforgivable and the only unforgivable sin. You basically damned yourself.

Here again you are correct that the self damns or saves the self.

And of course all this assumes Christian concepts are true, which no one can demonstrate they that they are. So the whole religious exercise serves what purpose?

 

[F1fan]

Yes, I have Christian view and interpretation, although it's not mainstream.




The Theists have Won. @F1fan They control your Atheists thinking. The Devil/Satan either makes Failed Christians in the Churches or Atheists such as yourself.

There are disagreement also within congregations of every Church. This is because the original teaching of the Church has been lost.





It appears you are not listening. I will repeat: You cannot be a True Christian without being an Extremist. You are Totally Devoted, otherwise you are not a Christian. Being Dogmatic is a requirement to being a Real Christian. Did you watch this insightful video lecture I posted:

America's Advents - Professor Alec Ryrie

@F1fan It doesn't matter whether your beliefs are fantasises or based in reality, you hold a Dogmatic position.




That's correct. And, there is only one Truth.

With millions of Christians disagreeing about what it is. And all Christians think they are correct. And none can show us they are correct.

 

[F1fan]

Yes, I have Christian view and interpretation, although it's not mainstream.

The “truth” is subjective then. Anything goes.

The Theists have Won. @F1fan They control your Atheists thinking. The Devil/Satan either makes Failed Christians in the Churches or Atheists such as yourself.

In what way do theists control atheist’s thinking? Give us some examples so we can be clear about what you are claiming.

There are disagreement also within congregations of every Church. This is because the original teaching of the Church has been lost.

You’d think would either make sure that didn’t happen or would renew the info to someone. That’s bad luck.

It appears you are not listening. I will repeat: You cannot be a True Christian without being an Extremist. You are Totally Devoted, otherwise you are not a Christian. Being Dogmatic is a requirement to being a Real Christian. Did you watch this insightful video lecture I posted:

America's Advents - Professor Alec

So you are an extremist?

Do you think your religious beliefs have authority over others?

 

[Redemptionsong]

Jude 4

4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.


Now we are making progress. Therefore, you are saying that you don't have license to Commit Sins, such as, Adultery. Is that correct?

The Churches in Christendom are full with Licentious Christians.

Correct.

If you read Ephesians 4 we are told that the Church should be equipped 'for the perfecting of the saints'.

In comparing Gentiles to the Church, Paul says, 'But you have not so learned Christ;
If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness'.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Righteousness, as in keeping "My statutes", will be the requirement under the kingdom of God, whereas David is made king (Ezekiel 37:24). And wickedness, sinning, is transgressing the law. (1 John 3:4). God enjoins one to turn away from wickedness/sin to righteousness (Ez 33:9) and live.

Christ is the righteousness of God.

To receive Christ one must repent and believe in Jesus as Christ. Then one will be baptised in the Holy Spirit.

 

[F1fan]

Christ is the righteousness of God.

What does this mean is simple terms?

To receive Christ one must repent and believe in Jesus as Christ.

What does a person "receive" exactly when they receive Christ? Explain this process and what happens.

Then one will be baptised in the Holy Spirit.

And what does this mean? Baptizing is a physical ritual, so explain this claim.