Are you a liar?

[Elihoenai]

Let's ignore the verses that you quote for right now. How do you demonstrate that the Bible itself is reliable? That is a huge stumbling block that I have yet to see any theist explain about their holy book. What you are doing now sounds just like a Fantasy Fiction Debate. Arguing about whether Superman could The Flash in a race or other such wastes of time. (by the way, if there is no cheating the answer is Superman, it is always Superman).

John 20:25

25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.

That's because you cannot demonstrate to others that the Scriptures/Bible is reliable. You have to discover the absolute certainty of the Scriptures/Bible yourself through Personal and Common Experience. The Common Experience is shared with other True Followers and is through painstaking practice of Original Christian Doctrine

 

[Redemptionsong]

False. My approach is based on facts and coherent thinking. You believers can't provide either.


I never asked any such thing. Given what psychology has revealed about religious belief I doubt you ever made a choice to believe. You were likely taught to believe in a God in your childhood,a time when your brain was fully developed to think objectively. By the time you reached adulthood it was too far ingrained in your assumption to honestly have doubts.


No he didn't. Adam was naive and unaware of what would happen if he disobeyed, just like a child. Adults have the experience to know to follow rules.

And sin only applies to believers. As a concept it has no meaning or power to non-believers.


This sounds like New Age nonsense. I'll bet you have no clue what you re trying to say here. A bluff to sound enlightened and wise?

Let me ask you this, if you were Adam would you have obeyed God?

I'd like to think so, but we know Satan is a subtle tempter!

When you die will you carry any 'facts' with you, or is it the end?

Let's say, based on humanist logic, that there is no 'post mortem' life. 'Dead' means no consciousness. All the knowledge you have ever attained, because it is 'factual', dies with you.

Contrast this with what the Bible teaches. God exists, and is the force of life and love. Only God can provide a 'post mortem' existence. Therefore, no one can exist beyond the grave unless God wishes it. You have to be connected to his Spirit to live.

Then, we have an added twist. What if God requires justice, given that his Spirit is true? The implications are that God will want to give credit to those who deserve it, and punishment where pubishment is deserved. Why should God not raise all men up to face judgement, rather than allow the wicked to 'sleep'?

So, now you have a conundrum. Do you carry on ignoring Jesus, thinking you'll be fine if God judges you, or will you seek harder to discover if Jesus is the Christ?

And, just as an aside, l didn't come to faith until my early twenties! That was over forty years ago.

 

[Elihoenai]

No, l'm not rejecting John's baptism. Repentance is important, and is symbolised by the washing with water. Receiving the Holy Spirit is empowering, and is symbolised by fire. The two sides in baptism, human and divine, make up the one baptism.

Have received the Human Baptism by being Baptised with Water? Have you received what is shown in the following video?

What is Baptism?

I do believe that all who are sanctified by the Spirit through faith are saints.This includes all who lived by faith and hope in Christ in the OT.

There are numerous references to the saints.

Daniel 7:18. 'But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever'.

See Ephesians 2:18-22.

Hebrews 7:11

11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?


These Scriptures are much appreciated. In Daniel it instructs about "Saints of the Most High". The Most High Priesthood is Melchisedec. The Melchisedec Priesthood came after Levitical Priesthood. Do you recognise the this is Critical to Salvation?

In Ephesians it teaches about Yeshua Messiah/Jesus Christ having done away Law and Commands in ordinances on the Cross to create a New Man. Can you see that the New Man is the Saint and to become a New Man you must practice the Laws and Commands of Moses?

 

[Elihoenai]

A split suggests two factions in Christianity. There are vastly more than that. Just look at Catholics versus Protestants. How many Protestants sects are there? Who knows. You have liberal to moderate to conservative to extremist in Christianity. That's a lot of disagreement. Everyone thinks they are saved. There's reason for doubt.

Matthew 7:13-14

13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

The apparent split is in the Earthly Christian Church. In reality there is only one Faction ruling Christendom and that is the Roman Catholic Church. All Protestants are actually Roman Catholic. That's correct, the 2.2 Billions in Christendom believe they are Saved being hopelessly deluded. The Church members are enjoying their Sins and don't want to give them all up. That's why they all have their own Private Interpretations and Opinions. They have rejected the Demands of the Narrow Way!

 

[Subduction Zone]

John 20:25

25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.

That's because you cannot demonstrate to others that the Scriptures/Bible is reliable. You have to discover the absolute certainty of the Scriptures/Bible yourself through Personal and Common Experience. The Common Experience is shared with other True Followers and is through painstaking practice of Original Christian Doctrine

No, that is an example of a defensive verse. Something that a book that was the "Word of God" would not need. Never use defensive verses in a debate to defend the Bible. It only confirms that one's beliefs are wrong.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I can and did quote what Paul wrote, He got that from God. What you fail to understand is that Jesus said it’s better that He went away because then the Helper would come, He would lead and guide us into all Truth. Even by what God said in Genesis after Eve was deceived lines up with that.
It’s Scripture and Eve was deceived.
Probably better for you to stick to your Superman comic books.

You do not understand. Quoting Paul did not help you at all. It only demonstrated that you could not support your claim. The only honest being in that myth was the serpent. Now you are just grasping at straws. Better to own up to the fact that you cannot show that Eve was deceived.

Where and how was Eve deceived? Be specific. I am very sure that you will fail.

By the way, as a Christian you should be happy that the Garden of Eden story is just a myth. It paints God as an incompetent and evil God. He makes a creation. He screws it up by not only putting a tree in the Garden that Adam and Eve can't eat from, but he puts the Serpent in the Garden knowing what he will do. Then after his all to predictable failure occurs he does not own up and admit that he made a mistake. He blames the two people that he did not put the ability to know right from wrong into in the first place. If you read the story I can guarantee you that you did not understand it.

 

[ElishaElijah]

You do not understand. Quoting Paul did not help you at all. It only demonstrated that you could not support your claim. The only honest being in that myth was the serpent. Now you are just grasping at straws. Better to own up to the fact that you cannot show that Eve was deceived.

Where and how was Eve deceived? Be specific. I am very sure that you will fail.

By the way, as a Christian you should be happy that the Garden of Eden story is just a myth. It paints God as an incompetent and evil God. He makes a creation. He screws it up by not only putting a tree in the Garden that Adam and Eve can't eat from, but he puts the Serpent in the Garden knowing what he will do. Then after his all to predictable failure occurs he does not own up and admit that he made a mistake. He blames the two people that he did not put the ability to know right from wrong into in the first place. If you read the story I can guarantee you that you did not understand it.

Why is it that you don’t know what Scripture is?
My only responsibility is to understand and communicate what the Bible says and for the question how do I support that Eve was deceived is in the Scriptures that I gave you so your argument and problem is with God. So again here it is and sounds like the Serpent has also deceived you.
“But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.”
‭‭II Corinthians‬ ‭11:3‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

 

[Subduction Zone]

Why is it that you don’t know what Scripture is?
My only responsibility is to understand and communicate what the Bible says and for the question how do I support that Eve was deceived is in the Scriptures that I gave you so your argument and problem is with God. So again here it is and sounds like the Serpent has also deceived you.
“But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.”
‭‭II Corinthians‬ ‭11:3‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

I know what Scripture is. But you do not appear to. Paul writing about Eve does not make it a fact. In fact how do you even know that Paul's writings qualify as "Scripture"?

 

[F1fan]

If I thought your questions were sincere I’d answer

It is sincere, but you don't seem confident in being able to answer my question. Perhaps you weren't being truthful.

It's easy to make religious claims, it's hard to demonstrate them true.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Have received the Human Baptism by being Baptised with Water? Have you received what is shown in the following video?

What is Baptism?

Hebrews 7:11

11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?


These Scriptures are much appreciated. In Daniel it instructs about "Saints of the Most High". The Most High Priesthood is Melchisedec. The Melchisedec Priesthood came after Levitical Priesthood. Do you recognise the this is Critical to Salvation?

In Ephesians it teaches about Yeshua Messiah/Jesus Christ having done away Law and Commands in ordinances on the Cross to create a New Man. Can you see that the New Man is the Saint and to become a New Man you must practice the Laws and Commands of Moses?

I agree that the 'new man' is the saint. To say, however, that one must practice the laws and commands of Moses is inaccurate. The laws and commandments of Moses include commandments to make animal sacrifices in the temple in Jerusalem! This is not a part of NT teaching.

It's clear from the teaching of the apostles that to 'worship in Spirit and truth' gives freedom from the ritualistic and legalistic aspects of religion.

Here is Paul speaking: Romans 13:8-10.
'Owe no man anything, but love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.'

Let's not also forget that the 'new man' in Christ is a priest. Here are the words of 1 Peter 2:5. 'Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.'

 

[F1fan]

I can and did quote what Paul wrote, He got that from God.

One of your fellow Christians in this discussion says Paul is a false prophet. So is he correct or are you correct? Why is there so much disagreement among you Christians if you all have the truth?

What you fail to understand is that Jesus said it’s better that He went away because then the Helper would come, He would lead and guide us into all Truth. Even by what God said in Genesis after Eve was deceived lines up with that.

Why didn't Jesus just do the work himself? Why was it better that Jesus goes away? And again, some Christians are saying Paul is a false prophet. So do you have an explanation why after 2000 years Christians are confused about the Truth?

It’s Scripture and Eve was deceived.

Why didn't God create Eve to be an obedient person?

Probably better for you to stick to your Superman comic books.

An insult, that's not a good sign.

 

[F1fan]

I'd like to think so, but we know Satan is a subtle tempter!

Just as God created, right? If Satan is subtle is it possible you have been deceived?

When you die will you carry any 'facts' with you, or is it the end?

We all carry the fact of being dead after we die, is that what you mean?

Let's say, based on humanist logic, that there is no 'post mortem' life. 'Dead' means no consciousness. All the knowledge you have ever attained, because it is 'factual', dies with you.

Contrast this with what the Bible teaches. God exists, and is the force of life and love. Only God can provide a 'post mortem' existence. Therefore, no one can exist beyond the grave unless God wishes it. You have to be connected to his Spirit to live.

Our brains die, so no memory, no beliefs, no knowledge, etc. This oblivion makes many very afraid of the end, and they are easily convinced an afterlife exists. Are you one of these people? I admit it is a tempting idea to be immortal, but there is no evidence that this idea is true.

I suggest it is more mature and wise to just accept that when we die that is the end of our existence.

Then, we have an added twist. What if God requires justice, given that his Spirit is true? The implications are that God will want to give credit to those who deserve it, and punishment where pubishment is deserved. Why should God not raise all men up to face judgement, rather than allow the wicked to 'sleep'?

Why assume any of these ideas are real and true? There's no evidence. These are just ideas that a religion promotes, and some people buy into them. Why?

Even your wording here suggests you know these are just concepts, and not facts. Is it possible you are mistaken that these are true? You're not a God after all, you are a fallible mortal who makes mistakes.

So, now you have a conundrum. Do you carry on ignoring Jesus, thinking you'll be fine if God judges you, or will you seek harder to discover if Jesus is the Christ?

If there was an actual Jesus before me making these assertions, then I would accept them. But none of us hear these ideas from an actual Jesus or God, we hear them from preachers. What makes them correct, they heard about these ideas from other preachers. It's like gossip that's been going on for centuries. Where are the facts? Believers are still waiting for Jesus' return, and they have predicted this return hundreds of times in history. Nothing.

So Christians get predictions wrong. Christians disagree with each other to a degree they start offshoots sects. There are thousands of different interpretations driving beliefs. The KKK, a Christians organization, believes white people are superior to all other races according to God and Jesus. There are four Christian in this discussion who don't agree what the Truth is, and you ask me why I don't accept Jesus (you and your interpretation)?

I reject the claims made by all you believers because 1. you don't provide facts and a coherent explanation for your religious claims, 2. you all disagree on what the Truth is.

And, just as an aside, l didn't come to faith until my early twenties! That was over forty years ago.

Just about the time when people start sorting out their identity and meaning post adolescence. And how did you know to turn to faith as an option for meaning in life if you hadn't learned about it in your life experience? We all get exposed to religious ideas as we grow up. Some of us just learn to question these ideas, and not immediately trust the authority of social influence.

 

[ElishaElijah]

An insult, that's not a good sign.

The smile is meant to be a joke because he talks about Superman and the Spaghetti monster. We aren’t really that sensitive are we?

 

[F1fan]

The smile is meant to be a joke because he talks about Superman and the Spaghetti monster. We aren’t really that sensitive are we?

It was a passive aggressive comment, so perhaps "we" are.

 

[ElishaElijah]

It was a passive aggressive comment, so perhaps "we" are.

Wasn’t meant like that and have had many conversations with @Subduction Zone so here is a big hug

 

[Subduction Zone]

Wasn’t meant like that and have had many conversations with @Subduction Zone so here is a big hug

And in which your inability to understand the Bible is quite often made clear. Calling the Bible "Scripture" is not an excuse to cherry pick the verses that you like. One has to read and understand the whole thing.

 

[ElishaElijah]

And in which your inability to understand the Bible is quite often made clear. Calling the Bible "Scripture" is not an excuse to cherry pick the verses that you like. One has to read and understand the whole thing.

Read the whole thing, the Scriptures clearly say that Eve was deceived. We can go on and on but the Scriptures don’t say otherwise and it’s clearly stated. Seems you just won’t admit you’re wrong.

“But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭11:3‬ ‭RSV‬‬

 

[Redemptionsong]

Just as God created, right? If Satan is subtle is it possible you have been deceived?


We all carry the fact of being dead after we die, is that what you mean?


Our brains die, so no memory, no beliefs, no knowledge, etc. This oblivion makes many very afraid of the end, and they are easily convinced an afterlife exists. Are you one of these people? I admit it is a tempting idea to be immortal, but there is no evidence that this idea is true.

I suggest it is more mature and wise to just accept that when we die that is the end of our existence.


Why assume any of these ideas are real and true? There's no evidence. These are just ideas that a religion promotes, and some people buy into them. Why?

Even your wording here suggests you know these are just concepts, and not facts. Is it possible you are mistaken that these are true? You're not a God after all, you are a fallible mortal who makes mistakes.


If there was an actual Jesus before me making these assertions, then I would accept them. But none of us hear these ideas from an actual Jesus or God, we hear them from preachers. What makes them correct, they heard about these ideas from other preachers. It's like gossip that's been going on for centuries. Where are the facts? Believers are still waiting for Jesus' return, and they have predicted this return hundreds of times in history. Nothing.

So Christians get predictions wrong. Christians disagree with each other to a degree they start offshoots sects. There are thousands of different interpretations driving beliefs. The KKK, a Christians organization, believes white people are superior to all other races according to God and Jesus. There are four Christian in this discussion who don't agree what the Truth is, and you ask me why I don't accept Jesus (you and your interpretation)?

I reject the claims made by all you believers because 1. you don't provide facts and a coherent explanation for your religious claims, 2. you all disagree on what the Truth is.


Just about the time when people start sorting out their identity and meaning post adolescence. And how did you know to turn to faith as an option for meaning in life if you hadn't learned about it in your life experience? We all get exposed to religious ideas as we grow up. Some of us just learn to question these ideas, and not immediately trust the authority of social influence.

God, and love, are spiritual. To get to know the spiritual you need a heart, and you need faith.

Have you ever read the scriptures with faith, allowing God to speak to your heart? This is what a child does before scepticism takes hold!

I have had ample opportunity to question my faith, and l enjoy the challenges that questioning brings. Nevertheless, one makes no progress in Christ if doubt fells you at the first hurdle. It is only as faith grows that the deeper meaning and completeness of Christ becomes apparent.

I never saw healings in my prayer life until l had faith for healing. Then l saw loads! And it all began when l was healed.

What l've discovered is that God has a 'way' and it's up to believers to conform to His 'way'. We should not expect God to run around after us, doing what we think is godly.

This is why repentance is the first step. It's the point at which we acknowledge that our 'way' is not God's way.

 

[F1fan]

God, and love, are spiritual.

God is a religious idea, and religion is not necessarily spiritual. Love could be considered spiritual, but it's mostly referred to as an emotion any humans can feel, assuming no mental disabilities.

To get to know the spiritual you need a heart, and you need faith.

Theists have their own definition of spiritual and faith. To my mind spiritual needs to have a certain function to a person's feeling of well being. The more fervent the believer the less spiritual it tends to be. A head full of religious concepts does not equate to a spiritual path. And faith, well, that can mean a good will approach or a justification to believe in irrational concepts. In any event theists need to be more careful about what and how they believe in the concepts they value.

Have you ever read the scriptures with faith, allowing God to speak to your heart? This is what a child does before scepticism takes hold!

In other words, believe the influence of other believers around you. Let's note you probably didn't read the Quran or Vedas, did you? Would you tell someone to read the Quran without skepticism, or should they accept what the Quran says just because there are Muslims telling him he should believe it?

See how you trap yourself with faith? See how social influence can make one guy a Christian, another guy a Muslim, and yet another guy a Hindu, and all because they were exposed to different social experiences from different religious traditions. This is why reason (skilled thinking) is crucial to teach the young (and even some adults).

I have had ample opportunity to question my faith, and l enjoy the challenges that questioning brings. Nevertheless, one makes no progress in Christ if doubt fells you at the first hurdle. It is only as faith grows that the deeper meaning and completeness of Christ becomes apparent.

But did you have the tools to adequately question your beliefs? Do you have reasoning skill? Are you able to set aside the subconscious values you have assigned to ideas you adopted from life experiences? Are you even self-aware enough to know where your biases are? Have you studies secular histories of how the Bible and Christianity evolved over time? Have you studied the psychology of religious so you can identity yurt own thinking and behavior and why you behave the way you do? Have two looked into the evolutionary element of why humans evolved to be religious?

There are many reason why religious people believe in their religion, and it is not because the concepts are rational and fact-based.

I never saw healings in my prayer life until l had faith for healing. Then l saw loads! And it all began when l was healed.

Sounds like you interpreted things a certain to validate your religious belief. In psychology it's called confirmation bias. You will see things that confirm what you believe, and reject what doesn't.

What l've discovered is the God has a 'way' and it's up to believers to conform to His 'way'. We should not expect God to run around after us, doing what we think is godly.

This is why repentance is the first step. It's the point at which we acknowledge that our 'way' is not God's way.

Rituals are a way to make your efforts seem valuable. After all, if you do something long enough you come to value that ritual and repetition. It's a way to create stability to offset the natural anxiety we humans have. Some of us prefer to avoid this trap of illusion and self-deception. It takes courage to take on life without religious belief, but it is very fulfilling. The freedom is fantastic.

 

[2ndpillar]

What do you think is the difference between the righteousness of a man under the law, and the righteousness of a man under grace?

The false gospel of grace, "the covenant with death" (Isaiah 28:15), produced by the false prophet Paul, is antithetical to the gospel of Yeshua, which is the gospel of the kingdom, which is based on justice and righteousness, the rock/"stone" the true church is built on (Isaiah 28:14-18). The "day of the LORD" is a day of judgment (Joel 2:31-3:2), whereas judgment will be met out to the nations/Gentiles. The righteous keep God's law, the wicked keep their own internal law, based on their own distorted feelings, apparently based on greed and lust To "enter into life", one must keep the Commandments (Matthew 19:17). The false gospel of grace, a self righteous attitude, leads to death/destruction (Matthew 7:13), and the gospel of the kingdom, whereas Israel will eventually abide by God's statutes, comes about at the "end of the age". (Ezekiel 37:22-28), at the time of the judgment upon the nations/Gentiles (Matthew 13:39-42).