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Are you a liar?

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
The 'real' Bible scholars you like to refer to are those who don't believe in prophecy! These same scholars are opposed by a host of other scholars who do accept prophecy, and who date the books of the NT differently.

In front of me is a dictionary of the Bible, by Richard Watson, printed in 1833, which states, 'Of the several dates assigned to the Gospel [of Matthew], which deserve any attention, the earliest is A.D.38, and the latest A.D.64.'

This widespread acceptance of early dating of Matthew's Gospel should give an indication of how 'higher criticism' in the late 19th century, by rationalist scholars, trampled on tradition.

The earlier dating makes perfect sense when one takes into account the historical 'markers' found in the NT, and how they match with extra-biblical sources of history. This is exactly what your scholars fail to recognise. The chief amongst these historical markers are the Jewish Wars of 66-73 CE, and particularly the siege of Jerusalem. Flavius Josephus, who lived through the wars, provides a pretty detailed history of the events that took place during these years.

As for the Psalms, I think it's worth investigating them carefully. Their ancient origins are beyond dispute, and they must have been available, and well known, to Jews of the first century.

Two Gospels, Matthew and Mark, record Jesus using the first words of Psalm 22: 'My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?' when he was being crucified.

Do you think that the two Gospel writers put this in for effect? What deception were they trying to create, supposing the writers were liars?
Of course they don't "believe in prophecy". Prophecy fails when looked at rationally. And it is rather amazing that you have to refer to such an out of date source. Do you know why it took so long to get serious Bible study done?

One way that some of the books of the Bible are dated is by when they get "prophecy" wrong. If a book is accurate up to a certain date and then not accurate after that it tells you that it was written about the time that it began to become inaccurate. It was common back in the days to write not just the Bible but other books to as "prophecy" after the fact.

And how would you date the Psalms? How can you put a reliable date on them? "The Bible tells me so" is only circular reasoning at best and since we do know that parts of the Bible are wrong if taken literally one cannot use the Bible as a source for its own dating.
 

Fallen Prophet

Well-Known Member
You make a lot of interesting - and downright illogical jumps - in your post.
Science is on everyone's side.
I agree - and that statement has nothing to do with what I said.

I said, "It reminds me of people who claim that "the science" is on their "side".

I was talking about "the science" - which is the new authoritative view regarding political hacks posing as scientists and telling everyone else how to live their lives - not "science".

For example - the idea that the wearing of masks stops or slows the spread of COVID and other viruses - the data from actual experimentation of this idea is spotty and tends to go in the direction that masks do nothing to stop or slow the spread of any virus.

However - "the science" declared - as if it were a dictator - that masks are good and helpful and everyone needs to wear them and if people are not wearing them they should be harassed, removed, expelled, fired, arrested, etc.

It is similar to Christianity - I believe that the Lord Jesus Christ is on everyone's side - but there are those among the "Christians" who claim to know "the truth" and to be "the authority" and they start to judge and condemn others.

There is no difference.

Not all scientists agree. Not all "religionists" agree.

However, there are those among scientists and religionists who declare what "the truth" is - based on their opinion/interpretation/circumstance - and that they themselves are "the authority" of that truth and they start to tell other people what to believe and how to live.

I said "the science" - not science.
Christian extremists don't like a lot of science because it interferes with their beliefs.
A lot of scientists also don't like a lot of scientific theories postulated because they interfere with their opinions and theories.

A Christian who disagrees with "the science" is not "an extremist".

Of course - there are "Christian extremists" out there - no question - but I get the feeling that the metrics you would use to cast that blanket term are vast and vague.
Well reasoned and fact-based opinions are valuable. Opinions based on feelings or tradition, or disinformation like Qanon are not only worthless, but toxic. This is why reason is important. Its why education is important. It's why a good reputation for being rational is important.
Cloth and paper masks are practically useless at stopping or spreading the transmission of viruses.

However - because of political hackery - the opinion of an incompetent "doctor" - who hasn't had a patient in decades - became the de facto "law of the land" - because people gave up their reason and their rights due to the fear-mongering.

It was all opinion based on feelings and disinformation.

No one has a monopoly on opinion based on feelings, tradition or disinformation and no one has a monopoly on well-reasoned and fact-based opinions.
Well you seem to be one of those people who think Fauci is evil, and that masks infringe on person freedom, and that vaccines aren't safe or effective. Am I wrong?
I cannot say whether or not Fauci is "evil" - but decades of being in the public sphere have proven that he is incompetent and narcissistic to the extreme (He always had pictures of himself displayed behind him during interviews at his home).

Not only that but he has been proven to be dishonest about his involvement in the development of COVID-19 and other research projects and that he was complicit in the media covering up his involvement.

He has also become addicted to power over the last couple of years - but that could happen to anyone who is given too much authority.

I cannot look into his heart - so I don't know if he is "evil" - but I do know that he is an incompetent liar who narcissistically worships himself - believes himself to be "the science" - and he likes telling people how they can live their lives.

The wearing of masks does not infringe on anyone's personal freedom - forcing people to wear masks - based on nothing but fear and political hackery - is an infringement.

Vaccines have been safe and effective - but the COVID "vaccines" were proven to be ineffective in regard to getting or transmitting the virus - meaning that even the vaccinated can get and spread the virus - so there is no reason to mandate that anyone get it.

What we put into our bodies should be a personal choice - unless it can be proven to safeguard others - which the COVID "vaccines" do not.

So - yes - I would say that you are wrong in your assessment.
If I am correct then you are a victim of right wing disinformation.
No - you are just spinning leftist talking points that are not rooted in fact or logic.

No one on "the right" is claiming that masks and vaccines are bad - only that it is wrong to force people to wear masks and to put experimental substances - that don't do what they were described to do - into their bodies against their will.
Hey knock yourself out. But what is hypocritical is those insisting they don want government telling them to wear masks for public safety but are fine with government forcing women to give birth to a child ever if raped. No freedom to feel whatever gender a citizens desires, because that is government's law to impose.
I don't believe that a government should force its citizens to wear masks to stop or slow the spread of COVID because masks have been proven to be ineffective in stopping or spreading COVID.

Social distancing does work - as does hand washing/sanitizing - so the government could impose such requirements in local, State and Federal buildings.

However - businesses and churches should be able to make their own rules - even to the wearing of masks - without government interference - and being outdoors is super safe - no need to get involved there.

There should always be a balance between public safety and personal freedom - all maintained by facts - not feelings and opinions of incompetent political hacks posing as "doctors".

And the government should always - always - be against the murder of innocent people.

In regard to the case of rape - actual rapists whose crime has been proven to have occurred in a court of law - should be castrated/jailed/executed.

But no woman has the right to hurt or kill any innocent person just because she was the victim of rape.

A woman aborting the child who is the product of a rape would be no different than her just shooting some random person walking down the street.

The government cannot force the woman to be a mother - but it can and should stop her from murdering her unborn innocent child.

In regard to the case of gender identity - I am unaware of anyone claiming that people are not free to feel whatever they want to feel - but it is only when the actions based on such feelings infringe on the rights of others - such as the right to receive a proper education at school or to compete in a fair competition or to privacy - that the government can step in.

The government should interfere when public educators become activists and start indoctrinating their students in their ideology - I mean they did in in regard to religious teachers and them teaching their faith to students.

The government should interfere when public facilities - such as restrooms and prisons - designed for only members of one of the biological sexes is invaded by members of the opposite biological sex.

I don't think government should interfere in sports - unless it is the Olympics - but all these women getting ousted by male competitors should refuse to compete until men are taken out of women's sports.
Let's note that the inalienable rights you cite here are for humans to set whatever laws they want for self-governance, and that means that humans assume a responsibility to be responsible for their laws and behavior within and for the benefit of a collective society. It is not about a feral community of wild humans who do whatever they want.
No one is claiming that "freedom" means people can do whatever they want - because that can and will infringe upon the freedoms of others.

You are just parroting leftist talking points.
The right wing wants all the freedom, but none of the responsibility for freedom.
It was the "right wing" that advocated for defunding the police, decriminalizing theft, decriminalizing public drug use, decriminalizing public defecation?

Who wants to give rapists only 5 years in prison - those on the right or those on the left?

Who wants to judge college admission and employment opportunities on merit - rather than sex or race?

Who claims that the individual is not responsible for their personal choices - but they can blame everything on history or a system of government?

You will notice - that on practically every issue - it is the right - not the left - who espouses personal responsibility and accountability.

The "social justice" collective Hive minds - who believe that everyone should do as directed, and no one is responsible for their actions - are on the left - not the right.
 

Fallen Prophet

Well-Known Member
Have you mentioned a single thing about your obligation to the society you live in? No, not a word.
What are you talking about? That is all I have been talking about.

I have an obligation to society to wait until marriage to have sex - so that I can raise my children in a stable and loving home - creating more and better citizens - not to mention avoiding all the drama, heartache, depravity, potential sexual disease and unwanted pregnancy - that has hindered our society.

I mean - you don't need to look any further for "freedom without responsibility" than the sexual deviancy had in our country - and the vast majority of those who are pushing for premarital sex, abortion, "shacking up" and every other adverse effect of sexual leniency are on the left - not the right.

I have an obligation to society to defend the lives of the unborn - for how we treat the small and defenseless is a reflection of our society.

Men and women should be held responsible for the human lives they create. Generally speaking - men becoming fathers and women becoming mothers civilizes them - makes them more productive and responsible - better contributors to society.

I have an obligation to society to claim that there are biological differences between men and women.

No society can flourish under lies and misinformation. The differences between the sexes should be venerated - not scorned. Therse differences are had either by design from God or from millennia of evolutionary biology - either way - they are what have shaped all of human history and civilization.

Trying to make someone into something they are not is never good, and it has become so prevalent in our society that people are being victimized.

I have an obligation to society to defend everyone's right to self-preservation - that should be a given.

I have an obligation to society to claim that everyone has inalienable rights, and that the government does not give anyone these rights - but should defend them.

And don't try to act like those on the left are more generous or charitable than those on the right - that has been proven wrong a million times over.

Those are the right are far more likely to give of their time, money and resources to those in need - while those on the left are very generous with other people's time, money and resources - which is why they always advocate for government overreach to solve their problems - rather than do it themselves.
Did you not know that the KKK had millions of members back in the 1920's?
Yes - and I am aware that the majority of them - if not all of them - were Democrats.

I am also aware of the fact that however many KKK members there were a century ago has nothing to do with what you and I have said.

The KKK is nothing today. No one supports them like they did back in the 1920's.

Today - BLM is the racist terrorist organization supported by politicians and the media.
Do you understand why the KKK burned a big cross as a symbol of their devotion to Christian beliefs?
I think you just answered your own question.

They did it as a symbol of devotion to their Christian beliefs.

You do understand that not all Christians agree on everything - don't you?

Why do you focus on only their religious affiliation - and try to use it as a smear on all Christians today - but ignore their political affiliation - and try to use that as a smear on all Democrats today?
Sure, every nation and people that act in the name of God have God on their side. That is both the good and evil. It's almost as if a God doesn't exist, or the God is very confused.
That sure is some faulty thinking.

If the ants in my ant farm start claiming that I am on their side and start doing this and that based on their claim that I somehow instructed them to do so - that would have no bearing on my existence or on whether or not I was confused on anything.

That would make no sense.
There are moral absolutes that function as biological advantages. Otherwise there are no Gods known to exist that endorse or promote any moral absolutes. There are plenty of mortal middlemen to Gods that claim their absent God wants one moral thing or another. These middlemen tend not to agree, so there must be many Gods, or none.
Explain this concept that biology dictates moral absolutes.
So you don't like secular laws?
I never said that. Don't break forum rules.
I'll bet you'd become a huge fan of secular human rights if you were in a Muslim country and was captured by ISIS and they decided to cut your head off for being Christian. Or would you defend their religious law?
You should go back and read what I said again.

It's like you are reading what I said - but you are too busy thinking about how you are going to respond - so you don't actually understand what I said.

There are no "moral absolutes" in secular law - which is why they change - it was once legal to castrate the mentally handicapped - it was once illegal to abort the unborn.

No moral absolutes in secular law. That was all I was saying.
I've debated Christians since 1996 and none have ever offered a test.
No one has ever offered me a reasonable argument in defense of abortion - is that proof that no such argument exists?
Do you want to be the first?
Perhaps I would have at the start - but your comments have made it clear that I would simply be casting my pearls before swine.

I know that you believe you can have a field day with that response - but I don't owe you anything - and I never claimed that such a test ever existed.

All I have claimed is that your belief that there is no "God test" is merely that - a belief.
And those are the five sense we all use and rely on to discern what is real in our environment.
No - if that were true then we wouldn't have people arguing that men can become women or that abortion isn't murder.

There is a lot of "reality" out there that is not discernible by our five senses.
Of course I am. I have no Big Dady to appeal to as justification and an excuse for some bad decision I might make. All my decisions and moral judgments fall on me. That means I have to think about my integrity, character, consequences, etc. I have no dogma to get mired in or confused or conflicted over. I am free, but also have full burden and responsibility. That means i take it seriously. Theists can dissolve themselves of all responsibility and decide to be obedient agents for their articular religious faction. That is the advantage of God being on your side, you can make immoral judgments and believe they are moral, and have no test in reality.
I'm sorry - but you're just wrong.

Sure - you may not have "God" as your "Big Daddy" - but you have something - an "Insert Here" - be it "Federal Government", "Fauci", "DNC", "some collective mentality" - that is your "Big Daddy" you use to justify every decision you make - whether it be good or bad.

Everyone has an "Insert Here" - not just "theists".

For example - the most human death and suffering ever to occur on our planet has been due to communism - or any system of government made to replace God with the State or leader.

I am glad that you believe that all of your accomplishments - good or bad - fall on you and you alone - that is encouraging.

However - most of those who subscribe to the same talking points you have been using would disagree with you on this.

In the United States today - the people who stress personal responsibility and accountability are going to be the theists - not the social justice collective of the left.
Yet if they learn to trust God (whatever that means) they learn bad lessons that allow them to avoid responsibility and full accountability for their positions on matters.
Such as? Stop skirting around it.
Indoctrination creates agents for dogma, not moral thinkers.
Correct - and you will find these dogmatic agents on the left - because these are the only agents supported by the Federal government, legacy media, big tech, big pharma, social media, Hollywood - etc.
 
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F1fan

Veteran Member
At the Fundamental Level they all agree.
And what is that fundamental level: that some sort of God exists. Christians can't agree on whether God is three persons, whether Jesus is God or not, whether works is crucial for salvation, whether all mankind is saved as the Bible states versus only Christians who accept Jesus as savior, whether gays are damned or loved, whether greed is bad or not, etc. For a religion that claims to be the Truth it has a devastating amount of disagreement, division, and conflict. It is a theological catastrophe that believers really need to ignore because it casts serious doubt on whatever they believe.

It might be more difficult for an Atheist looking outside in to see what all 2.2 Billions of Christians in Christendom agree about.
No, we atheists can see Christians have no absolute Truth because some 2000 years later the divisions and debate is getting stronger, not being resolved. We can see the four competing versions of Christianity on this discussion alone, and there is no resolution because it all comes down to personal interpretation. There is not enough information in the Bible to offer a final and absolute Truth. Believers are left coming up with their own ideas and beliefs to fill in the vacuum of vagueness.

I have stated before that part of this massive disagreement and confusion is because Christians can't decide what is literal and what is symbolic. I suggest reading all the Bible symbolically and this will eliminate a great deal of the confusion. Christians are confused because they try to make a literal interpretation fit in a universe that does not cooperate. That's bad theology. At least Catholics have adjusted their beliefs over the millennia, usually after crimes against those who suggest the changes.

Roman Catholics and Protestants can still be agreed despite killing each other.
Yeah, killing is moral and justified. Ignore that one of the 10 Commandments prohibits killing. Who says hypocrisy isn't Godly, right?
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
You make a lot of interesting - and downright illogical jumps - in your post.

I agree - and that statement has nothing to do with what I said.

I said, "It reminds me of people who claim that "the science" is on their "side".

I was talking about "the science" - which is the new authoritative view regarding political hacks posing as scientists and telling everyone else how to live their lives - not "science".

For example - the idea that the wearing of masks stops or slows the spread of COVID and other viruses - the data from actual experimentation of this idea is spotty and tends to go in the direction that masks do nothing to stop or slow the spread of any virus.

However - "the science" declared - as if it were a dictator - that masks are good and helpful and everyone needs to wear them and if people are not wearing them they should be harassed, removed, expelled, fired, arrested, etc.

It is similar to Christianity - I believe that the Lord Jesus Christ is on everyone's side - but there are those among the "Christians" who claim to know "the truth" and to be "the authority" and they start to judge and condemn others.

There is no difference.

Not all scientists agree. Not all "religionists" agree.

However, there are those among scientists and religionists who declare what "the truth" is - based on their opinion/interpretation/circumstance - and that they themselves are "the authority" of that truth and they start to tell other people what to believe and how to live.

I said "the science" - not science.

A lot of scientists also don't like a lot of scientific theories postulated because they interfere with their opinions and theories.

A Christian who disagrees with "the science" is not "an extremist".

Of course - there are "Christian extremists" out there - no question - but I get the feeling that the metrics you would use to cast that blanket term are vast and vague.

Cloth and paper masks are practically useless at stopping or spreading the transmission of viruses.

However - because of political hackery - the opinion of an incompetent "doctor" - who hasn't had a patient in decades - became the de facto "law of the land" - because people gave up their reason and their rights due to the fear-mongering.

It was all opinion based on feelings and disinformation.

No one has a monopoly on opinion based on feelings, tradition or disinformation and no one has a monopoly on well-reasoned and fact-based opinions.

I cannot say whether or not Fauci is "evil" - but decades of being in the public sphere have proven that he is incompetent and narcissistic to the extreme (He always had pictures of himself displayed behind him during interviews at his home).

Not only that but he has been proven to be dishonest about his involvement in the development of COVID-19 and other research projects and that he was complicit in the media covering up his involvement.

He has also become addicted to power over the last couple of years - but that could happen to anyone who is given too much authority.

I cannot look into his heart - so I don't know if he is "evil" - but I do know that he is an incompetent liar who narcissistically worships himself - believes himself to be "the science" - and he likes telling people how they can live their lives.

The wearing of masks does not infringe on anyone's personal freedom - forcing people to wear masks - based on nothing but fear and political hackery - is an infringement.

Vaccines have been safe and effective - but the COVID "vaccines" were proven to be ineffective in regard to getting or transmitting the virus - meaning that even the vaccinated can get and spread the virus - so there is no reason to mandate that anyone get it.

What we put into our bodies should be a personal choice - unless it can be proven to safeguard others - which the COVID "vaccines" do not.

So - yes - I would say that you are wrong in your assessment.

No - you are just spinning leftist talking points that are not rooted in fact or logic.

No one on "the right" is claiming that masks and vaccines are bad - only that it is wrong to force people to wear masks and to put experimental substances - that don't do what they were described to do - into their bodies against their will.

I don't believe that a government should force its citizens to wear masks to stop or slow the spread of COVID because masks have been proven to be ineffective in stopping or spreading COVID.

Social distancing does work - as does hand washing/sanitizing - so the government could impose such requirements in local, State and Federal buildings.

However - businesses and churches should be able to make their own rules - even to the wearing of masks - without government interference - and being outdoors is super safe - no need to get involved there.

There should always be a balance between public safety and personal freedom - all maintained by facts - not feelings and opinions of incompetent political hacks posing as "doctors".

And the government should always - always - be against the murder of innocent people.

In regard to the case of rape - actual rapists whose crime has been proven to have occurred in a court of law - should be castrated/jailed/executed.

But no woman has the right to hurt or kill any innocent person just because she was the victim of rape.

A woman aborting the child who is the product of a rape would be no different than her just shooting some random person walking down the street.

The government cannot force the woman to be a mother - but it can and should stop her from murdering her unborn innocent child.

In regard to the case of gender identity - I am unaware of anyone claiming that people are not free to feel whatever they want to feel - but it is only when the actions based on such feelings infringe on the rights of others - such as the right to receive a proper education at school or to compete in a fair competition or to privacy - that the government can step in.

The government should interfere when public educators become activists and start indoctrinating their students in their ideology - I mean they did in in regard to religious teachers and them teaching their faith to students.

The government should interfere when public facilities - such as restrooms and prisons - designed for only members of one of the biological sexes is invaded by members of the opposite biological sex.

I don't think government should interfere in sports - unless it is the Olympics - but all these women getting ousted by male competitors should refuse to compete until men are taken out of women's sports.

No one is claiming that "freedom" means people can do whatever they want - because that can and will infringe upon the freedoms of others.

You are just parroting leftist talking points.

It was the "right wing" that advocated for defunding the police, decriminalizing theft, decriminalizing public drug use, decriminalizing public defecation?

Who wants to give rapists only 5 years in prison - those on the right or those on the left?

Who wants to judge college admission and employment opportunities on merit - rather than sex or race?

Who claims that the individual is not responsible for their personal choices - but they can blame everything on history or a system of government?

You will notice - that on practically every issue - it is the right - not the left - who espouses personal responsibility and accountability.

The "social justice" collective Hive minds - who believe that everyone should do as directed, and no one is responsible for their actions - are on the left - not the right.
Why do you keep repeating your anti-mask nonsense and yet offer no evidence? Is it because you know that you are wrong? If you do not you should. There have been many studies done on facemasks. The conclusion is that they work. Here is a paper on a meta-study where they compiled the results of quite a few different studies:

https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2014564118

Their conclusion? Read for yourself:

"
Conclusion
Our review of the literature offers evidence in favor of widespread mask use as source control to reduce community transmission: Nonmedical masks use materials that obstruct particles of the necessary size; people are most infectious in the initial period postinfection, where it is common to have few or no symptoms (45, 46, 141); nonmedical masks have been effective in reducing transmission of respiratory viruses; and places and time periods where mask usage is required or widespread have shown substantially lower community transmission."

You can read more. The problem with facemasks is not the people wearing them. It is the people not wearing them. If you refused to wear a facemask because of the poor biased science articles that you may have found you were part of the problem. You were part of the reason that the virus kept coming back.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
Don't make the error of believing all of the myths of the Bible. Claims of child sacrifice are quite common about one's enemies from those times. But it is a rather irrational claim if one thinks about it.

I don't know, there is some information that over 60 million babies have been aborted since the 1960s in the US alone. As biological waste, if not buried, they are burned in an incinerator. They are burned to the god of Mammon, and the subsequent judgment, as with the Jews, as the "harlot" of Revelation 17:16, was they were to be made desolate, naked and burned, as was done in WW2. Judgment will also come down on the nations/Gentiles. The claims of child sacrifice by the Jews, comes from the book written by the Jews, and list the consequences of such actions, which apparently happened according to the writings of the Jews.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I don't know, there is some information that over 60 million babies have been aborted since the 1960s in the US alone. As biological waste, if not buried, they are burned in an incinerator. They are burned to the god of Mammon, and the subsequent judgment, as with the Jews, as the "harlot" of Revelation 17:16, was they were to be made desolate, naked and burned, as was done in WW2. Judgment will also come down on the nations/Gentiles. The claims of child sacrifice by the Jews, comes from the book written by the Jews, and list the consequences of such actions, which apparently happened according to the writings of the Jews.
Sorry, but no. The Bible is not anti-abortion. In fact it even describes Hebrew priests performing a chemical abortion.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
Sorry, but no. The Bible is not anti-abortion. In fact it even describes Hebrew priests performing a chemical abortion.

Sorry, but yes. The Commandment reads, "Thou shalt not kill". But do not worry. You can kill 60 million babies, but you will only have one life to lose. The problem is how you are going to die. As you do to others, so shall be done to you. If you read the bible, apparently the "Hebrew priest" prayed to the sun and ate rodents and swine. I don't think it worked out well for them. (Isaiah 66:17)
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Sorry, but yes. The Commandment reads, "Thou shalt not kill". But do not worry. You can kill 60 million babies, but you will only have one life to lose. The problem is how you are going to die. As you do to others, so shall be done to you. If you read the bible, apparently the "Hebrew priest" prayed to the sun and ate rodents and swine. I don't think it worked out well for them. (Isaiah 66:17)
So what? The Hebrews did not think that the soul entered the body until the first breath. They placed quite a bit of importance on the concept of breathing. That would not be "killing" in their book.

And once again, why can a priest perform a chemical abortion?
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
So what? The Hebrews did not think that the soul entered the body until the first breath. They placed quite a bit of importance on the concept of breathing. That would not be "killing" in their book.

And once again, why can a priest perform a chemical abortion?

The emphasis was on the breath of God. That breath of God existed in the red blood cells of the mother, which ran through the heart of the baby. Any one could perform a chemical abortion if they knew how. They could also rob a bank if they were up to it. I am not sure where you get "priest" performing a chemical abortion. If you are referring to the Talmud, which according to Jeremiah 8:8 is the scribes making the law into a lie, well, it hasn't worked out for the scribes, or their followers. The Jewish Progressives elected Biden and their former governor. I think they have a lot to be sorry for and the rich can afford to move out of New York, but the poor are stuck with hell on earth. Even the Progressive millennials and over educated women are having second thoughts.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
The emphasis was on the breath of God. That breath of God existed in the red blood cells of the mother, which ran through the heart of the baby. Any one could perform a chemical abortion if they knew how. They could also rob a bank if they were up to it. I am not sure where you get "priest" performing a chemical abortion. If you are referring to the Talmud, which according to Jeremiah 8:8 is the scribes making the law into a lie, well, it hasn't worked out for the scribes, or their followers. The Jewish Progressives elected Biden and their former governor. I think they have a lot to be sorry for and the rich can afford to move out of New York, but the poor are stuck with hell on earth. Even the Progressive millennials and over educated women are having second thoughts.
Sorry, but they did not know that. It is too bad that you have not studied your Bible. If you had you would have known how life begins at birth as shown by multiple passages. That they even performed abortions (and definitely against the mother's wishes) in the temples.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
Sorry, but yes. The Commandment reads, "Thou shalt not kill". But do not worry. You can kill 60 million babies, but you will only have one life to lose. The problem is how you are going to die. As you do to others, so shall be done to you. If you read the bible, apparently the "Hebrew priest" prayed to the sun and ate rodents and swine. I don't think it worked out well for them. (Isaiah 66:17)
So you don't take the Old Testament seriously or literally? God kills many babies (not just zygotes and fetuses) in those stories. Explain morality to us.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Of course they don't "believe in prophecy". Prophecy fails when looked at rationally. And it is rather amazing that you have to refer to such an out of date source. Do you know why it took so long to get serious Bible study done?

One way that some of the books of the Bible are dated is by when they get "prophecy" wrong. If a book is accurate up to a certain date and then not accurate after that it tells you that it was written about the time that it began to become inaccurate. It was common back in the days to write not just the Bible but other books to as "prophecy" after the fact.

And how would you date the Psalms? How can you put a reliable date on them? "The Bible tells me so" is only circular reasoning at best and since we do know that parts of the Bible are wrong if taken literally one cannot use the Bible as a source for its own dating.
Psalms 22-24 are attributed to David; of all 150 Psalms, 73 bear his name. There is no reason to disbelieve the genuineness of these titles.

The Psalter is said to be divided into five books, with a closing benediction at the end of each book.
1) Psalms 1-41, mostly ascribed to David (3 anonymous -1,2 and 33).
2) Psalms 42-72, 18 of which are ascribed to David.
3) Psalms 73-89, of which 86th Psalm is ascribed to David.
4) Psalms 90-106, of which 101st and 103rd are ascribed to David.
5) Psalms 106-150, of which 15 are ascribed to David.

Given that Psalms 22-24 are ascribed to David, it is worth having an idea of when David lived. The Tel Dan inscripton, found in 1993, is the first piece of archaeological evidence that gives us the name 'David'. Nevertheless, there are many archaeological sites linked to his reign, not least the site of the temple in Jerusalem.

We also have the carefully preserved genealogies of the Bible, which allow scholars to trace ancestry.

David is believed to have lived in the tenth century BCE. Here's a piece of archaeological evidence, unearthed in 2014 in Israel, that supports the biblical claim.
Khirbet Summeily: Excavations on the Philistine Border; James W. Hardin, PhD; March 28, 2016
'Six clay seals found at the archaeological site of Khirbet Summeily in Israel offer evidence that supports the existence of Biblical Kings David and Solomon, says a team of archaeologists led by Dr Jeff Blakely of the University of Wisconsin-Madison.'
 

Elihoenai

Well-Known Member
Yes, I have been water baptised (unto repentance) as an adult, and I have had the laying on of hands, with prayer for the anointing by the Holy Spirit. I believe I have received that anointing (though at exactly what point is difficult to tell), and am a witness to the power of the Spirit in ministry.

The question I ask you is, Do you walk by the Spirit of Christ in grace, or are you still seeking to establish your own righteousness under the law?

Galatians 4:4-5

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.


1) Given that you have received Water Baptism Unto Repentance and Laying on of Hands, you are a member of the Universal Roman Catholic Church.

2) Certainly the latter. Righteousness is made Under the Law. The Son of Elohim/God is made Under the Law.

@Redemptionsong You have never been Under the Law, therefore, you don't Really know Yeshua Messiah/Jesus Christ or have the Holy Spirit.
 
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Elihoenai

Well-Known Member
And what is that fundamental level: that some sort of God exists. Christians can't agree on whether God is three persons, whether Jesus is God or not, whether works is crucial for salvation, whether all mankind is saved as the Bible states versus only Christians who accept Jesus as savior, whether gays are damned or loved, whether greed is bad or not, etc. For a religion that claims to be the Truth it has a devastating amount of disagreement, division, and conflict. It is a theological catastrophe that believers really need to ignore because it casts serious doubt on whatever they believe.

The Fundamental Level means the Essential Nature. Those words written about the Christians being hopelessly divided is very true. It's the nature of the Earthly Church to be divided. Furthermore, Christianity, Judaism and Islam have the same Essential Nature. It's the reason why members in these Religions are enjoying their Sins and/or find it impossible to stop Sinning.


No, we atheists can see Christians have no absolute Truth because some 2000 years later the divisions and debate is getting stronger, not being resolved. We can see the four competing versions of Christianity on this discussion alone, and there is no resolution because it all comes down to personal interpretation. There is not enough information in the Bible to offer a final and absolute Truth. Believers are left coming up with their own ideas and beliefs to fill in the vacuum of vagueness.

Agreed. The Earthly Church has no absolute Truth and every member in all the Christian Churches have their own Private Interpretation of Scripture/Bible. The divisions in the Church cannot and will never be resolved. These Christians have rejected the Original Christian Doctrine.


I have stated before that part of this massive disagreement and confusion is because Christians can't decide what is literal and what is symbolic. I suggest reading all the Bible symbolically and this will eliminate a great deal of the confusion. Christians are confused because they try to make a literal interpretation fit in a universe that does not cooperate. That's bad theology. At least Catholics have adjusted their beliefs over the millennia, usually after crimes against those who suggest the changes.

1 Corinthians 3:3

3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

There you have it. It's the Carnal that is the Essential Nature and 2.2 Billions of Earthly Christians don't want to give up their Carnal Nature. This is what ensures the divisions.


Yeah, killing is moral and justified. Ignore that one of the 10 Commandments prohibits killing. Who says hypocrisy isn't Godly, right?

Galatians 5:19-21

19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Killing is Carnal Activity and that's why Christians affirm that it is Moral and Justified to do so.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Psalms 22-24 are attributed to David; of all 150 Psalms, 73 bear his name. There is no reason to disbelieve the genuineness of these titles.

The Psalter is said to be divided into five books, with a closing benediction at the end of each book.
1) Psalms 1-41, mostly ascribed to David (3 anonymous -1,2 and 33).
2) Psalms 42-72, 18 of which are ascribed to David.
3) Psalms 73-89, of which 86th Psalm is ascribed to David.
4) Psalms 90-106, of which 101st and 103rd are ascribed to David.
5) Psalms 106-150, of which 15 are ascribed to David.

Given that Psalms 22-24 are ascribed to David, it is worth having an idea of when David lived. The Tel Dan inscripton, found in 1993, is the first piece of archaeological evidence that gives us the name 'David'. Nevertheless, there are many archaeological sites linked to his reign, not least the site of the temple in Jerusalem.

We also have the carefully preserved genealogies of the Bible, which allow scholars to trace ancestry.

David is believed to have lived in the tenth century BCE. Here's a piece of archaeological evidence, unearthed in 2014 in Israel, that supports the biblical claim.
Khirbet Summeily: Excavations on the Philistine Border; James W. Hardin, PhD; March 28, 2016
'Six clay seals found at the archaeological site of Khirbet Summeily in Israel offer evidence that supports the existence of Biblical Kings David and Solomon, says a team of archaeologists led by Dr Jeff Blakely of the University of Wisconsin-Madison.'
I never said that King David did not exist. The point was that there is no reliable evidence that David wrote those Psalms. And there probably evidence against it. Your article did not help you. At best it was evidence that he existed. Nothing more.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
So you don't take the Old Testament seriously or literally? God kills many babies (not just zygotes and fetuses) in those stories. Explain morality to us.

The morality of man, based on the laws and concepts of men, is in the mind of men. Humanism, whereas there is no God, and the morality of men is higher than that of the righteousness of a non existent God, leads to humanism/Marxism, a foundation stone the Woke, which is a bane on the living. The "kingdom of God", is with respect to righteousness and justice (Isaiah 28), whereas justice falls on the lawlessness of men. The end result is that lawlessness results in the "destruction" of the lawless, whether by flood, fire, storm, plague, etc. The result of the Progressive, holier than God crowd, is that their gods, such as a green new deal, winds up supporting the dictators around the world, and results in the rape and murder of the innocent in name of supporting their god of being more righteous than God, based on their own virtue. It all ends in mental and physical collapse as evident in their leadership, and eventual "destruction" from following their leaders (false prophets) (Mt 7:13-15). Good luck with that.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
Sorry, but they did not know that. It is too bad that you have not studied your Bible. If you had you would have known how life begins at birth as shown by multiple passages. That they even performed abortions (and definitely against the mother's wishes) in the temples.

I know that the Jews have been continuously judged by God for their "abominations" but I am not aware of "abortions" being "performed" in the "temples". Is this a Talmud thing, or can you cite an actual verse from the Torah? As for the final judgment of Jacob, which included Judah, that is called "Jacob's distress" (Jeremiah 30), that has not been completed, and is followed by the "complete destruction" of the nations/Gentiles (Jer 30:11). Judgment day is coming (Joel 2:31-32 -Joel 3:2), and confessing one's sins, is a little shallow, if one doesn't also repent of their sins. The "nations" will be plagued with their skin falling of the bodies while they stand, often referred to as radiation poisoning (Zechariah 14:12). I don't know, it might be best to "repent". (Mt 3)
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
The morality of man, based on the laws and concepts of men, is in the mind of men. Humanism, whereas there is no God, and the morality of men is higher than that of the righteousness of a non existent God, leads to humanism/Marxism, a foundation stone the Woke, which is a bane on the living.
Yeah, wokeness, which has a lot in common with what Jesus taught, namely being accepting of others, being tolerant of differences, allowing others the freedom to be who they are, to rule by law that does not discriminate, that does not assume some select people's God exists and has an authority over those of different religions.

So you don't like any of this?

The "kingdom of God", is with respect to righteousness and justice (Isaiah 28), whereas justice falls on the lawlessness of men. The end result is that lawlessness results in the "destruction" of the lawless, whether by flood, fire, storm, plague, etc.
So why does God punish whole regions of people including your religious tribe? God can't just take out those who sin? Your God punishes the lawful along with the lawless, and that is moral and just? It sounds sloppy to my mind.

But let's be realistic, you are referring to natural disasters as being God's wrath and punishment. This is an obsolete 500 BCE type belief and assumption. Not only is this belief a poor one, but it makes your God look like an immoral idiot. It can't be more precise in who it targets? You need a better God.

In reality we know natural disasters and disease is just how the universe works, and a universe that does not treat humans as special as they want to think they are.

The result of the Progressive, holier than God crowd, is that their gods, such as a green new deal, winds up supporting the dictators around the world, and results in the rape and murder of the innocent in name of supporting their god of being more righteous than God, based on their own virtue.
Really, the Green New Deal results in dictators killing and raping? Which disinformation news site told you that nonsense?

The aims of the Green New Deal is called being good stewards of the planet. It's about protecting our planet for ourselves, but mostly for the next generations. Why the religious right has gotten duped by the right wing extremists to sabotage our planet is beyond me. You explain to us why polluting the planet is moral and good.

It all ends in mental and physical collapse as evident in their leadership, and eventual "destruction" from following their leaders (false prophets) (Mt 7:13-15). Good luck with that.
This sounds like what American conservatives have found with Trump and his band of unethical republicans. Look at Jan 6 as an example of collapse in all ways important to a functioning society. Ethics, law, morality, truth, democracy, etc. all sabotaged for political power and greed. That is your side. It is no more decent and moral than what your God does in the Old Testament as murder and punishments on all people. Defend it.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
Yeah, wokeness, which has a lot in common with what Jesus taught, namely being accepting of others, being tolerant of differences, allowing others the freedom to be who they are, to rule by law that does not discriminate, that does not assume some select people's God exists and has an authority over those of different religions.

So you don't like any of this?


So why does God punish whole regions of people including your religious tribe? God can't just take out those who sin? Your God punishes the lawful along with the lawless, and that is moral and just? It sounds sloppy to my mind.

But let's be realistic, you are referring to natural disasters as being God's wrath and punishment. This is an obsolete 500 BCE type belief and assumption. Not only is this belief a poor one, but it makes your God look like an immoral idiot. It can't be more precise in who it targets? You need a better God.

In reality we know natural disasters and disease is just how the universe works, and a universe that does not treat humans as special as they want to think they are.


Really, the Green New Deal results in dictators killing and raping? Which disinformation news site told you that nonsense?

The aims of the Green New Deal is called being good stewards of the planet. It's about protecting our planet for ourselves, but mostly for the next generations. Why the religious right has gotten duped by the right wing extremists to sabotage our planet is beyond me. You explain to us why polluting the planet is moral and good.


This sounds like what American conservatives have found with Trump and his band of unethical republicans. Look at Jan 6 as an example of collapse in all ways important to a functioning society. Ethics, law, morality, truth, democracy, etc. all sabotaged for political power and greed. That is your side. It is no more decent and moral than what your God does in the Old Testament as murder and punishments on all people. Defend it.

Your Progressive green new deal lead to Biden begging the U.S.hating authoritarian governments of Iran, Russia, and Venezuela for more production of oil, while cutting off U.S. oil. I mean that makes a lot of sense. Pay Russia for their oil so they can buy weapons from Germany and France, who did not abide by the UN sanctions, to kill and rape Ukrainians. Purchase solar batteries from China so they can ramp up their persecution of their Western Muslims. The self righteous woke seem to rely on the Marxist governments of Venezuala and Russia to provide the dirty oil for the world. Yeshua's message to the world, was the kingdom of heaven, which according to Matthew 13:39-42, is the gathering of those who "commit lawlessness", to be tossed into a "furnace of fire", and to prohibit any survivors of the nations, who lie, murder, or commit immorality from coming into the gates of Jerusalem (Rev 22:15), whereas the woke think letting out the liars, murders, and immoral onto the streets is a good idea. I am fine with the "woke" turning in their cars and planes and walking instead, but for myself, I have a business to run which requires heavy transportation. I use solar appropriately, in the role of backup power, not life or death power. As for how things work, it is the devil's spawn, the liars of the world, who are the fascist/Marxist/socialist, who deny open debate, and burn books, and promote false narratives, and seem unable to self inspect.
 
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