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Are you an atheist? if so, What is your POV about God?

Shad

Veteran Member
I do not believe that it has been proven that the Sun predates the earth. Neither has been proven that the Bible claims that the earth predates the sun. Either case is pure speculation.

Stellar formation is something we can actual observe, and have, from multiple stages from multiple sources. There is no evidence of planet formation prior to star formation thus it is not considered in the model. This level of evidence is above and beyond the evidence of/for BB model which you have no issue accepting. After all there are millions of star systems and stellar nurseries in our own galaxy (direct observation), and untold trillions stellar nurseries (indirect observation). Your own standard of "proven" renders the BB model unproven

Cherry picking and confirmation bias, nothing more. You pick a model that you can distort to align with your faith, you reject a model that doesn't align.
 
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Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
You have made the claim that we are made of substances that are common in the universe. Indeed, it was from the dust of the earth that God made us.
As Neil Degrasse Tyson points out: "“The four most common chemically active elements in the universe—hydrogen, oxygen, carbon, and nitrogen—are the four most common elements of life on Earth. We are not simply in the universe. The universe is in us.”

Not dust -- the elements of the universe. Get some science, it's not painful -- just takes a little more work than being gullible.
You have made a claim that thousands of planets could support life. You may be right about that. But I would like to see your list of planets that can support life, and your evidence that each of them can indeed support life.
You really are funny. You happily believe the tenets of your religion in the absence of any real evidence, but also in the presence of very real, and in my view catastrophic, evidence against, in the form of ignorance and contradiction. And yet, when the evidence before you is "life is made of the stuff of the universe, and the universe is filled with an unfathomable abundance of that stuff," and further that life has indeed happened at least once (that would be here, I hope you remember), you have trouble believing that it has pretty much certainly appeared elsewhere.

You only believe the fables of your childhood, is that it?
I will admit, there seems to be a lot of stars.
Yes, we can be quite certain that life has become emergent on at least one planet. I it is quite misguided however to suggest that life could have originated on any of the billions and billions of other stars. Life just doesn't seem to originate on stars. I think the climate on stars pretty much prohibits life from existing on them.
Now you are being deliberately idiotic. Nobody said life originated on stars. It didn't here -- it originated on a planet orbiting a star at a distance conducive to conditions that would support life. The lowest estimate for the number of potentially habitable planets in the universe that I am presently aware of (by scientists who do the hard work of studying the matter) is on the order of 100 BILLION.
Again, you do not know what caused life to exist here on this earth, so you certainly cannot say where life originates, let alone suggest that you can determine the probabilities of life existing somewhere else.
Now this might get you into trouble -- what if, just what if, science learns in the near future precisely how life can originate in the presence of conditions like those on earth some 3 1/2 billion years ago. Will you then admit that it can happen without God waving his magic wand?

Probably not, I predict.
 
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Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
So you want to hold me accountable to the teachings contained in a book that was composed by humans that you don't even believe in. Thankfully, I don't have to answer to you.
Nor will you admit that you have said something utterly contrary to what Jesus exhorted in you. I make no claims to whether that makes you a "Christian" or not -- that is not for me to say. But I can tell you in all truth that it makes you dishonest.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
The same could be said about you. I think it well to remember that you have about as much science knowledge compared to what is known today as we may compare to a thimbleful to an ocean full. Am I wrong? Can someone tell me I'm wrong?
Compared to the amount of science knowledge held by those like Stephen Hawking, Pinker, Neil Degrasse Tyson, Carl Sagan and many, many others, I have a trivial amount of science knowledge -- that is certainly true.

Compared to the science knowledge Paul possessed -- and that you appear to possess -- I'm as advanced as a computer is to a box of counting stones. (By the way, the word calculate actually comes from the Latin calculus -- a small counting stone.)
 
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9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
My personal experience and acknowledgement of their existence.
IOW, in order to find the Big Bang to be convincing evidence for the existence of God, you have to already have been convinced of the existence of God some other way?

Not exactly compelling.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
By all means, present your evidence that the existence of the Sun predates the existence of Earth.

And present your evidence that the Bible makes claim that the planet we call Earth preceded the star we call the Sun.
Hedging your bets, I see. :D

Personally, I see no reason to conclude that the ancient people who wrote Genesis:

- considered the Sun to be a star like the other stars, or
- believed that daylight necessarily came from the Sun.
 

Sonofason

Well-Known Member
I read and replied to 473. Can you just sum it up with one commentary answer. Why would god send his son to die for you all and invite you all to his kingdom if he didn't want to invite those who hate him?
You are failing to make appropriate distinctions.
You are failing to distinguish between God's call to repentance, and actual repentance.
Nope.
You flat out lied about what I have and have not claimed.
I disagree.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
You are failing to make appropriate distinctions.
You are failing to distinguish between God's call to repentance, and actual repentance.

I disagree.

I never mentioned repentance.

I just thought this statement "god doesn't allow people who hates him into his kingdom" and John 3:16 and the other verse you quoted and the one I did conflict with each other.

The former implies god only accepts those who love him. As a result, half the people who do not love him or even know him would, by default, not be allowed into his kingdom.

What I'm saying is that if you have unconditional love for that person, you would want that person to be part of your kingdom (or dinner table as I gave my first example/post).

When you say "why would god allow people who hates him into his kingdom"... and I think, of course he allows it (invites), that's unconditional love.

Repentance comes from the Christian. I asked about god's point of view.

That, and I gave the example of christ inviting his betrayer at his table. Why would christ do that when he knew Judeus would betray him? If christ showed unconditional love, in your original post to Evangelical, why not god?
 

Sonofason

Well-Known Member
I read and replied to 473. Can you just sum it up with one commentary answer. Why would god send his son to die for you all and invite you all to his kingdom if he didn't want to invite those who hate him?
No, I've decided not to sum it up for you. You'll have to do your own homework.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
No, I've decided not to sum it up for you. You'll have to do your own homework.

Sheesh. I'm not even debating with you. I'm just asking for clarification of why you say one thing and scripture says another.

Think of it this way. If I sum it up and interpret in my head, it could be another 100 posts of what I think you said. It's best that you sum it up and just give a good clean answer. So, I'll know what's said. Best coming from the person who said it.

How can god not allow people he hates into his kingdom when he allows people in his kingdom by dying for them?

How can you reject someone you saved?
 

Sonofason

Well-Known Member
Sheesh. I'm not even debating with you. I'm just asking for clarification of why you say one thing and scripture says another.

Think of it this way. If I sum it up and interpret in my head, it could be another 100 posts of what I think you said. It's best that you sum it up and just give a good clean answer. So, I'll know what's said. Best coming from the person who said it.

How can god not allow people he hates into his kingdom when he allows people in his kingdom by dying for them?

How can you reject someone you saved?
Yes, lets clarify. What exactly did I already say that you believe is in contradiction to that which is written in the Bible. I believe it would be at this point for you to quote what I said that contradicts the Bible, and then quote the verse or verses that you believe I contradicted.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Yes, lets clarify. What exactly did I already say that you believe is in contradiction to that which is written in the Bible. I believe it would be at this point for you to quote what I said that contradicts the Bible, and then quote the verse or verses that you believe I contradicted.

It was the one I quoted with Evangelical, the reply to that, and the two verses you gave me, and my reply to those. I'd have to search for all four or so posts.

The consensus is: you told Evangelical "why would god allow people he hates into his kingdom?"

I brought up a point against it because it didn't make sense. So, I said god allows people into his kingdom by unconditional love through sending his son.

You gave me two verses in one sentence asking me "why John 3:16" followed another verse, can't remember. I read the verses and said they say the same thing and they both show unconditional love.

So now you have your statement with Evangelical and the two scriptures (and the one I posted) that conflict with each other.

I was trying to ask for clarification and you went into repentence and a full post of scripture commentary which, after reading it, I would have thought the answer would be pretty clean cut.

It will take me a bit to find all the posts; but, I was challenging your statements because they didn't make sense not because I wanted to debate you wrong.
 

Sonofason

Well-Known Member
It was the one I quoted with Evangelical, the reply to that, and the two verses you gave me, and my reply to those. I'd have to search for all four or so posts.

The consensus is: you told Evangelical "why would god allow people he hates into his kingdom?"

I brought up a point against it because it didn't make sense. So, I said god allows people into his kingdom by unconditional love through sending his son.

You gave me two verses in one sentence asking me "why John 3:16" followed another verse, can't remember. I read the verses and said they say the same thing and they both show unconditional love.

So now you have your statement with Evangelical and the two scriptures (and the one I posted) that conflict with each other.

I was trying to ask for clarification and you went into repentence and a full post of scripture commentary which, after reading it, I would have thought the answer would be pretty clean cut.

It will take me a bit to find all the posts; but, I was challenging your statements because they didn't make sense not because I wanted to debate you wrong.
I am not so sure that you are right in thinking that God's gift to mankind is a display of unconditional love. God's gift was never intended for everyone. It was intended to save those people and only those people who believe in God's Son, just as it says in John 3:16. To read anything else into this verse is erroneous. And John 3:18 reiterates that those who do not believe in God's Son have been and are already in a state of condemnation.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
I am not so sure that you are right in thinking that God's gift to mankind is a display of unconditional love. God's gift was never intended for everyone. It was intended to save those people and only those people who believe in God's Son, just as it says in John 3:16. To read anything else into this verse is erroneous. And John 3:18 reiterates that those who do not believe in God's Son have been and are already in a state of condemnation.

When I practiced, it was more "god opened the door, it was your choice to walk in it." How you're putting it, it seems like god only opens the door to those who knocks.

While the latter is in scripture literally, but going off of meaning, why would god say "he loves the world" when he only meant "he loves only those who believe."

In other words, maybe it should say "For god loved X amount of people, for they, who have believed in him, have everlasting life."

John 3:16 says god loves the world and sent his son to the world. That's the universal gift god gave to all. It's on the christian who takes that gift so he can choose to receive everlasting life. The decision is the Christian's not god's.

I was talking in a christian chat room years ago and someone told me something similar to your view. He said he was a Calvanist. Out of all the debates I had with Calvanist, he finally explained it like this: (this was six or so years back)

God knows who will enter his kingdom. So, those who do not believe in him are the set few he will allow in his kingdom. Basically saying, the choice is god's not man. That's not how I understand christianity especially when jesus put so much emphasis on the people in relation to god.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
Carita, get used to it. Sonofason cannot possibly give honest answers to your questions. Honest answers would disrupt his faith -- and faith is not something that likes to be disrupted.

Here is something to consider, that I have observed over a very long time now -- the only people for whom "truth" is truly unavailable -- no matter how diligent the search -- are those who already suppose they have it. Because (obviously) they stopped searching the moment they knew the were right and everybody else wrong.

And as Sonofason continues to show us -- there is not a single fact in the universe that will be allowed to contradict what he already "knows."
 

Sonofason

Well-Known Member
When I practiced, it was more "god opened the door, it was your choice to walk in it." How you're putting it, it seems like god only opens the door to those who knocks.

While the latter is in scripture literally, but going off of meaning, why would god say "he loves the world" when he only meant "he loves only those who believe."

In other words, maybe it should say "For god loved X amount of people, for they, who have believed in him, have everlasting life."

John 3:16 says god loves the world and sent his son to the world. That's the universal gift god gave to all. It's on the christian who takes that gift so he can choose to receive everlasting life. The decision is the Christian's not god's.

I was talking in a christian chat room years ago and someone told me something similar to your view. He said he was a Calvanist. Out of all the debates I had with Calvanist, he finally explained it like this: (this was six or so years back)

God knows who will enter his kingdom. So, those who do not believe in him are the set few he will allow in his kingdom. Basically saying, the choice is god's not man. That's not how I understand christianity especially when jesus put so much emphasis on the people in relation to god.
I'm sorry, but the Christian does not have a choice to make. They are Christians. Christians believe in God's Son. It is you who does not believe in God's Son, and so it is you that is faced with a choice, not me. I have already made my choice.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
I'm sorry, but the Christian does not have a choice to make. They are Christians. Christians believe in God's Son. It is you who does not believe in God's Son, and so it is you that is faced with a choice, not me. I have already made my choice.
Good grief, you can't even tell when you're speaking nonsense! If you had no choice to make, how is it you "already made [your] choice?"

Why is that Christians on these forums are so often the most hateful, judgmental people I ever dialogue with? Do Christians like you "get off" on judging even when the guy you worship said not to? Doesn't that sort of mess up your belief? Doesn't that actually -- and truly -- make you a freakin' liar?

I think it does.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
I'm sorry, but the Christian does not have a choice to make. They are Christians. Christians believe in God's Son. It is you who does not believe in God's Son, and so it is you that is faced with a choice, not me. I have already made my choice.
Let me ask. Do you have the choice the ability to turn away from god?
 

Sonofason

Well-Known Member
Good grief, you can't even tell when you're speaking nonsense! If you had no choice to make, how is it you "already made [your] choice?"

Why is that Christians on these forums are so often the most hateful, judgmental people I ever dialogue with? Do Christians like you "get off" on judging even when the guy you worship said not to? Doesn't that sort of mess up your belief? Doesn't that actually -- and truly -- make you a freakin' liar?

I think it does.
I know this might be a little hard for some people to follow. If I have already made a decision to accept Christ, I no longer have that decision hanging over my head to make. There is no need to decide again that which I have already decided upon. In the past I was faced with a choice, that is to believe in Christ or to not believe in Him. When I was faced with this choice, I made my choice. Now the choice is made, and I no longer have that choice to make. But you do, although it seems as though you have made your choice as well. Thus, we have on the one hand me who has been promised eternal life according to John 3:16,17 and the first portion of verse 18 because I believe in God's Son; and on the other hand we have you, who has not accepted Christ, and who according to the latter portion of John 3:18 is already condemned.
 
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