Are You Born Again

[joeboonda]

Your post is fine, but it's not what I believe. Yes. We were dead until Jesus completed the work of creation. We have been made righteous, through the grace of Christ. We were made righteous, not by our decision to love him, but by his decision to love us. Your references to Eph. and Col. do say, "We were dead, and now we are alive." All because God loves us and has already saved us.

Okay, not sure I follow you exactly. You say we were dead until Jesus completed the work of creation. When Jesus completed the creation, he looked at it and said it was 'very good'. There was no sin and therefore no death yet. But when Adam sinned, death entered and this sinful, dead nature was passed to all men. I was not alive at the creation, and when I was born, I was born spiritually dead, with a sinful nature. I was made righteous AFTER I accepted God's loving provision He made to reconcile me to Him. It is true that God loves all of us and has already provided the way for us to become saved, but we are not saved until we accept the gift, until we believe in, trust in that. We must believe that Jesus paid for our sins and trust in that fact, that God is satisfied with the payment Christ made in our behalf. This happens on a certain day...behold today is the day of salvation...when we hear the Good News and believe it and accept it. As in Acts, it says, "and the same day were added unto them about three thousand souls." They heard the Gospel preached and repented, that is they changed their minds, they turned from "their way" of trying to obtain salvation and accepted God's way, by trusting alone in Christ alone, and were saved the moment they believed. Before they believed, God had made the provision, He gave His Son who did indeed pay for all the sins of all the world of all time, past, present and future, by dying, shedding His blood, (as the wages of sin is death, so He paid it, He died) But before they believed, they were still lost. Only after a person accepts the gift, are they saved. I can hand you a gift, but you must receive it,accept it, take it in your hand, and sadly, many do not accept it. Many reject God's way, His provision, and try to obtain or earn salvation their way, apart from Christ. But salvation as the Bible teaches, cannot be earned, God will not be a debtor to any man, it is a free gift, we accept or reject. That is the clear teaching of the Bible, not all will be saved, the wicked, goats, tares, as Jesus called them will be told to depart into everlasting punishment, and the righteous, those who have been made righteous by the blood of the Lamb, not having their own righteousness, which is as filthy rags, but are clothed in the Robes of Righteousness of Jesus Christ will be with God eternally. Jesus clearly taught this over and over, and He taught that we must be born again by believing in Him.

 

[sojourner]

Okay, not sure I follow you exactly. You say we were dead until Jesus completed the work of creation. When Jesus completed the creation, he looked at it and said it was 'very good'. There was no sin and therefore no death yet. But when Adam sinned, death entered and this sinful, dead nature was passed to all men. I was not alive at the creation, and when I was born, I was born spiritually dead, with a sinful nature. I was made righteous AFTER I accepted God's loving provision He made to reconcile me to Him. It is true that God loves all of us and has already provided the way for us to become saved, but we are not saved until we accept the gift, until we believe in, trust in that. We must believe that Jesus paid for our sins and trust in that fact, that God is satisfied with the payment Christ made in our behalf. This happens on a certain day...behold today is the day of salvation...when we hear the Good News and believe it and accept it. As in Acts, it says, "and the same day were added unto them about three thousand souls." They heard the Gospel preached and repented, that is they changed their minds, they turned from "their way" of trying to obtain salvation and accepted God's way, by trusting alone in Christ alone, and were saved the moment they believed. Before they believed, God had made the provision, He gave His Son who did indeed pay for all the sins of all the world of all time, past, present and future, by dying, shedding His blood, (as the wages of sin is death, so He paid it, He died) But before they believed, they were still lost. Only after a person accepts the gift, are they saved. I can hand you a gift, but you must receive it,accept it, take it in your hand, and sadly, many do not accept it. Many reject God's way, His provision, and try to obtain or earn salvation their way, apart from Christ. But salvation as the Bible teaches, cannot be earned, God will not be a debtor to any man, it is a free gift, we accept or reject. That is the clear teaching of the Bible, not all will be saved, the wicked, goats, tares, as Jesus called them will be told to depart into everlasting punishment, and the righteous, those who have been made righteous by the blood of the Lamb, not having their own righteousness, which is as filthy rags, but are clothed in the Robes of Righteousness of Jesus Christ will be with God eternally. Jesus clearly taught this over and over, and He taught that we must be born again by believing in Him.

The Christ event itself completed creation, that is, the incarnation, life, crucifixion and resurrection is what completed creation.

I don't believe that.

 

[roli]

Out of interest, what is Jesus recorded as saying?

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see = eido {i'-do}(to percieve,senses,to experience,to know) the kingdom of God.

Jhn 3:5 — Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

The key word is here is again or greek word , anothen {an'-o-then}
= from above, born from above,from a higher place

Jesus is distinguishing the difference of natural birth into this world and spiritual birth into the kingdom of God

 

[roli]

How do you determine exactly what that means?

2 ways actually, "spiritual and contextual"

The canonized scriptures speak the oracles of God or the mysteries of God on a spiritual level .
Consider this verse which distinguishes the natural man and the spiritual man apart,
1Cr 2:12Now we(those who trust and receive Christ) have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Cr 2:14 But the natural man (man without the spirit of God)receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

The second way to determine what a passage is saying is read it in context with what is already being discussed,but again the natural man can understand some common stories and principals in the word but to gain deeper insight it must be through the spirit of God,that is why Jesus said:
Mar 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all [these] things are done in parables:
The religious knew not who or what Jesus truly spoke of in his messages

 

[Simon Gnosis]

Awakened not born again.....

 

[roli]

It sounds like a teaching of reincarnation to me.

Sounds like that, but the truth of this spiritual conversion is it takes place in the spiritual realm of God,a full disrobing of the flesh with no carnality whatsoever.
It is a ongoing process of continually putting off the flesh (pleasures,gratifications and indulgences of the carnal nature)which someday when our salvation shall fully come we will be glorified as was Christ when he returned to the father

1Cor 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a *mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."

Flesh and blood will not inherit the kingdom,therefore you must be born again from above ,spiritually not carnally

 

[roli]

30,000 + would be more accurate.

I believe it refers to a change of heart. What do you think it means?

Read John,3,flesh produces flesh Spirit produces spirit
Born again = in the greek born from above
As I said, it's not what I want it to mean or you want it to mean,it is what God says is the way to enter into His presence,if God is Spirit as Jhn 4:24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit,(if born again) if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
1Cr 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and [that] no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

We can't call Jesus Lord if not born of the spirit from above, BORN AGAIN

 

[roli]

Here's me being nitpicky again. Where does Christ say that you have to be born again to call yourself a Christian? I can see where he says it's necesary to see the kingdom of God, but that's not the same thing you are asking.

The only way that you can come to God is by the blood of JESUS thropugh the Holy Spirit.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

1Cr 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and [that] no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

Listen to what purpose the spirit has in a Christians life it is the essence of being one with God,remembering flesh and blood will not inherit the kingdom of heaven
Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

Jhn 14:17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Jhn 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
Jhn 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
1Cr 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

 

[roli]

I agree with Katzpur; I believe it means literally, starting life afresh (in a religious context).

Starting a fresh in the spirt born from above,reconciled,restored,regeneration,renewed
Man was cast from the garden,separated from God and the spirit died in man and the veil was set in place between man and God
Tha veil was torn at the cross and access was again permitted by the blood that was
shed and through the spirit we now have access
Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father
2Cr 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption

This is the amazing thing ,we don't just have God's word through the bible and preachers telling us what we must believe and it left at that.
God confirms and reveals himself through the spirit that enters our hearts upon confessing,believing,recieving Jesus Christ as Lord.
That is the confidence we have as Christians
Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

 

[roli]

Awakened not born again.....

Again =anothen {an'-o-then} from above, from a higher place

a) of things which come from heaven or God
2) from the first, from the beginning, from the very first 3) anew, over again

If that is a term you feel comfortable with then so be it ,but understand that the original meaning has no correlation to a natural occurence.
It is a supernatural experience that leads to a particular position or standing with God

 

[roli]

I surrendered my life to Christ if that's what you mean. I was raised Baptist, so the phrase "Born Again" makes me think of baptism. Not that any means anything different than what you're saying , that's just the first thing that pops in my head.

If you mean born again kinda like in 2 Cor 5:17 (new creation in Christ...), then yeah I am Born Again.

A Born again experience is a literal impartation of the presence/person of God that He gives to those who trust in the finished work of the cross through His Son Jesus.
Baptism was done by water as an act of repentance for the remission of sin, an outward act of obedience before Jesus died and rose again and then it became an act of identification of the believer into the death ,burial and resurrection of Jesus that John preached.

But then there is the baptism of the Holy Ghost where the Holy Spirit came upon them,enduing the believer with the power to go and witness.
Tha is another subject

 

[roli]

Nope, every time they tried to babtize me that water started boiling. After the 2nd or 3rd Preacher gets scalded, the other ones tend to lose enthusiasm for the whole thing. I am not circumsized either, and that seems to lead to damnation according to the old testament. Thank goodness I am not rich or I would really be screwed.

B.

Baptism never has nor will it save 1 soul from the consequences of sin,as it is a means only to be identified with Christ in his death burial and resurrection after your confession of faith that Jesus is lord .
Rom 6:3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Circumcision is of the heart,not by the letter( or law)that says you must be circumsized

Rom 2:25 For circumcision is indeed profitable if you keep the law; but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision? 27 And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you who, even with your written code and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

 

[Smoke]

I thought about being born again, but my mother refused.

 

[Quiddity]

So how would this tie to infant baptism, Victor? I can see this making sense if you were referring to what happens to an adult convert to Catholicism, but I don't see how it applies to an infant, expecially in light of this next paragraph:

Rather easily. We do not see the transformation as a one time event, but a continual process in a persons life. Which is why the sacrament of Confirmation is an extension of baptism.

Perhaps it does not, but don't you think that when it says we must be born of water and of the spirit, this is what it's referring to?

What makes you think we don't do that?

 

[joel5]

Water baptisim is where the operation of God happens and the blood of Jesus is applied. Thats where a sinner is turned to a saint. Please read Colossians 2:8 through 15 and also John 3:1 through 8 Also read Acts 2:36 through 41 Jesus died at the cross and shed his blood for the remission of sins. He shed his blood for the means to get back to god and without that blood, there isnt any hope for us. This is what that devil doesnt want you to know and thats where the his blood is applied. (read also rev. 12:7 through 12

There is much more, feel free to email me at [email protected]

 

[roli]

Rather easily. We do not see the transformation as a one time event, but a continual process in a persons life. Which is why the sacrament of Confirmation is an extension of baptism.

On the contrary we are declared righteous immediately after being born again by receiving Christ into our hearts and accepted by God and declared justified.
A born again experience is a one time event,one minute you don't have him in your heart,the next minute you do by believing ,confessing and recieving Jesus.
We immediately were unjust before God,but in one confession of faith that Jesus is Lord and died for our sins and recieving him as Lord into your heart we become just as if I never sinned.
He now see's us through Jesus's blood(the sacrifice) not our sin
There is a process called sanctification," a being set apart" a putting off daily the deeds of the flesh.
Water baptism never saved anyone in the bible,otherwise the thief on the cross would of had to be baptised,but as it was Jesus says to him you will be with me in paradise.

Baptism always was symbolic throughout the bible of the cleansing of the flesh from sin, water was used to wash,purify,cleanseMar 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

Baptism was an act of faith and obedience towards repentance ,(turning away)that when they went into the water they died to flesh .they were buried and coming up from the water they were cleansed from sin.
When Jesus came He paid for and cleansed sin by his blood and death,baptism then took a new meaning,it now meant to be identified with His death burial and resurrection
Rom 6:3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

 

[joeboonda]

Amen, roli, good job.

 

[sojourner]

On the contrary we are declared righteous immediately after being born again by receiving Christ into our hearts and accepted by God and declared justified.
A born again experience is a one time event,one minute you don't have him in your heart,the next minute you do by believing ,confessing and recieving Jesus.
We immediately were unjust before God,but in one confession of faith that Jesus is Lord and died for our sins and recieving him as Lord into your heart we become just as if I never sinned.
He now see's us through Jesus's blood(the sacrifice) not our sin
There is a process called sanctification," a being set apart" a putting off daily the deeds of the flesh.
Water baptism never saved anyone in the bible,otherwise the thief on the cross would of had to be baptised,but as it was Jesus says to him you will be with me in paradise.

Baptism always was symbolic throughout the bible of the cleansing of the flesh from sin, water was used to wash,purify,cleanseMar 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

Baptism was an act of faith and obedience towards repentance ,(turning away)that when they went into the water they died to flesh .they were buried and coming up from the water they were cleansed from sin.
When Jesus came He paid for and cleansed sin by his blood and death,baptism then took a new meaning,it now meant to be identified with His death burial and resurrection
Rom 6:3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

I disagree. The way I read it, all humanity was made righteous through the Christ-event. God always accepts us, regardless of what we do. Our experience of being born again is what happens to us when we realize and accept that we stand righteous before God, through Jesus.

The question for the believer isn't "do you believe?" The question before the believer is, "Now that you have been made righteous through the grace of God, what will your response be?"

 

[doppelganger]

I disagree. The way I read it, all humanity was made righteous through the Christ-event. God always accepts us, regardless of what we do. Our experience of being born again is what happens to us when we realize and accept that we stand righteous before God, through Jesus.

That way of understanding it has always seemed more true to the "spirit" of the Gospel to me. It diffuses the idea of there being an "elect" of humans who lord their superior knowledge of the "Divine" over others and more readily allows me to break down the artificial barriers that otherwise might keep me from seeing and sharing the real humanity and the distress of others.

The question for the believer isn't "do you believe?" The question before the believer is, "Now that you have been made righteous through the grace of God, what will your response be?"

And the choice, I think, then becomees "Will you accept that Grace by acknowledging it was given to all freely, and thereby see Jesus in others even if they don't see it themselves? Or will you cling to your belief that you can understand and create your own righteousness and continue to hold the shortcomings you perceive in you and others under your own judgment?"

 

[sojourner]

That way of understanding it has always seemed more true to the "spirit" of the Gospel to me. It diffuses the idea of there being an "elect" of humans who lord their superior knowledge of the "Divine" over others and more readily allows me to break down the artificial barriers that otherwise might keep me from seeing and sharing the real humanity and the distress of others.



And the choice, I think, then becomees "Will you accept that Grace by acknowledging it was given to all freely, and thereby see Jesus in others even if they don't see it themselves? Or will you cling to your belief that you can understand and create your own righteousness and continue to hold the shortcomings you perceive in you and others under your own judgment?"

EXACTLY!!! Especially that part. As part of our baptismal covenant, we are asked to "seek and serve Christ in all persons, loving your neighbor as yourself."