Are You Born Again

[joeboonda]

This is true, gratitude, and a desire to love God and others results from this great salvation freely given to us undeserving sinners. For we do not serve out of guilt or fear, but we cry abba, Father, abba being a phrase of endearment, like 'daddy'. But, we must first believe, Jesus is clear that those who believe in Him are not condemned, but those who believe not are condemned already, see John 3.

 

[doppelganger]

but those who believe not are condemned already, see John 3.

"Condemned" by whom?

 

[sojourner]

This is true, gratitude, and a desire to love God and others results from this great salvation freely given to us undeserving sinners. For we do not serve out of guilt or fear, but we cry abba, Father, abba being a phrase of endearment, like 'daddy'. But, we must first believe, Jesus is clear that those who believe in Him are not condemned, but those who believe not are condemned already, see John 3.

What, exactly, does "condemned" mean in this context? Convicted of disbelief? Consigned to eternal damnation? Concemned to some sort of punishment? Held accountable for their actions? What? John doesn't elaborate, does he? Quite the contrary to what I think you're getting at here, Jesus says that he came to draw all humanity to himself.

 

[dawny0826]

"Condemned" by whom?

In essence, by themselves.

 

[doppelganger]

In essence, by themselves.

That's how I understand it, too.

 

[roli]

I disagree. The way I read it, all humanity was made righteous through the Christ-event. God always accepts us, regardless of what we do. Our experience of being born again is what happens to us when we realize and accept that we stand righteous before God, through Jesus.

No my friend, I never said we are all declared righteous when Jesus died ,I said one must recieve Christ, by being born again then he is declared righteous and recieves the Holy Spirit.

He paid the price for our sins ,but we must like you said respond with a resounding ,yes I believe and receive Jesus as Lord ,

 

[sojourner]

No my friend, I never said we are all declared righteous when Jesus died ,I said one must recieve Christ, by being born again then he is declared righteous and recieves the Holy Spirit.

He paid the price for our sins ,but we must like you said respond with a resounding ,yes I believe and receive Jesus as Lord ,

Then...that makes grace a trophy instead of a free gift: Based upon what we do, rather than upon what God does for us.

 

[michel]

As so many claim to be Christians or theists,has it basically come down to what people feel like classifying themselves as and not based on what Jesus said was the qualifier
There is several hundred groups of professing Christians in our world today.
Christian, means Christ follower,what is it that Jesus referred to when He said,
" You Must Be Born Again" this sounds conditional to me!!

Strangely enough, I consider myself to be a Christian (though maybe a little un conventional); about 13 years ago, I tried to take my own life. Our neighbours (He an R.C Priest, his wife involved in the church), obviously got to hear the story; and I remember him saying "Well, this is your re-birth..."

 

[joel5]

Jesus Says In John 3:1 And On That Ye Must Be Born Of Water And The Spirit, This Is Speaking Of Water Baptizm. I Know Alot Of People Say Other Wise But Here Is More Spripture To Back That.

Acts 2:36 To 42 Col 2:8 And On Explains Water Baptism And The Operation Of God. Mark 16:15 - 18
The Blood Of Jesus Is The Atonement For Sin And That Blood Is Received In Water Baptizm And Not In Any Other Place

 

[sojourner]

It's just neither that cut-and-dried, nor as formulaic as that. In several other places Jesus says that faith has saved us.

The rebirth comes from the heart -- not from some ceremony with water. That theology reduces a sacrament to a magic act, and the act of salvation is taken out of God's hands and placed in ours. No, the sacrament signifies the act of God that brings us new birth, but does not confer new birth upon us.

 

[Quiddity]

On the contrary we are declared righteous immediately after being born again by receiving Christ into our hearts and accepted by God and declared justified.

I'm all to familiar with this. I believe Luther called it "dung covered in snow".
Humans are the dung and the snow is God's Grace covering you righteous.

In Catholic theology you aren't only covered with snow, but you truly become snow. God will not be fooled into thinking that a pile of dung (untransformed human) is really a pile of snow (truly transformed).

Ezek: 33:12

12 "Therefore, son of man, say to your countrymen, 'The righteousness of the righteous man will not save him when he disobeys, and the wickedness of the wicked man will not cause him to fall when he turns from it. The righteous man, if he sins, will not be allowed to live because of his former righteousness.' 13 If I tell the righteous man that he will surely live, but then he trusts in his righteousness and does evil, none of the righteous things he has done will be remembered; he will die for the evil he has done. 14 And if I say to the wicked man, 'You will surely die,' but he then turns away from his sin and does what is just and right- 15 if he gives back what he took in pledge for a loan, returns what he has stolen, follows the decrees that give life, and does no evil, he will surely live; he will not die. 16 None of the sins he has committed will be remembered against him. He has done what is just and right; he will surely live.

The Lord clearly teaches us in these verses that a righteous man can turn away from his righteousness and commit iniquity. He was righteous (there is nothing about having phony righteousness), but he fell away and chose unrighteousness. When he does, his prior good deeds shall be forgotten, and he shall die.

Sounds to me like God is looking for real transformations.

 

[sojourner]

I agree, Victor.

 

[joeboonda]

I agree that baptism does not save anybody, the moment we place our faith in Christ's redemptive work on the cross we are saved, born-again, baptism being merely symbolic of that. I do not interpret victor's verses as one who may 'lose salvation', as I believe that is entirely impossible. It simply says the man who sins will surely die. Nothing here about salvation, although many have read that into it where it does not appear. John 5:24 and many other verses are quite clear that it is God who saves us and keeps us:

5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
(King James Bible, John)
6:36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
(King James Bible, John)
10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Now, Jn5:24 is very powerful, Double Truly, means absolutely true, that He that believes HAS< right now, Eternal life, and will NEVER ever go back into condemnation, but IS PASSED, right now from death to life. 6:36 says some BELIEVE NOT, they are still dead in their sins and will go to Hell, this is why Jesus said they who believe not are still condemned, they have no covering, no payment for their sins and are lost bound for Hell. But next verse says He that comes to me I will in NO WISE cast out. In the Greek I am told it is 5 negatives: I will never, no never, no never, cast them out. For salvation depends only that we have come to Him, and He takes us from there, we lay it at the feet of Jesus and He carries our burden, He is our redeemer, our advocate. Next verses say that it is God's will that none will ever be lost that come to Him, that believe on His name, none! Then He says I, that is, I, again I give them eternal life, I GIVE them eternal life, and they will NEVER peristh, and no man, which, man is in italics, its not in the original greek mss, it means NO, or NOTHING shall pluck them out of My hand, that is NOTHING, for NOTHING is greater than God, not even ourself, I know I'm not greater than God. Then He says it AGAIN, these verses together make a strong case for the assurance of every believer. Paul alludes to this in Romans:
8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ?...
(King James Bible, Romans)
8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
(King James Bible, Romans)

LOOK! Here he says NOR ANY OTHER CREATURE, he says not the highest thing in Heaven, nor the lowest devil of Hell nor many other things, THEN he says, as if to say, if I've left any other thing out, NOR ANY OTHER CREATURE, just to cover any and everything there could be. My friends, when you have Jesus, you have everything, and the Almighty Powerful God of Grace and Truth holds you, he paid a high price to redeem you, and you are HIS, and nothing can ever take you away from Him, not even you. Now we may fall out of fellowship with Him, but never relationship, just like my son, he may become angry and not talk with me for a time, but he is still my son, no matter what he does, nothing can change that.

43:1 But now thus saith the LORD that created thee, O Jacob, and he that formed thee, O Israel, Fear not: for I have redeemed thee, I have called thee by thy name; thou art mine.
43:2 When thou passest through the waters, I will be with thee; and through the rivers, they shall not overflow thee: when thou walkest through the fire, thou shalt not be burned; neither shall the flame kindle upon thee.
43:3 For I am the LORD thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour:

 

[lilithu]

As so many claim to be Christians or theists,has it basically come down to what people feel like classifying themselves as and not based on what Jesus said was the qualifier
There is several hundred groups of professing Christians in our world today.
Christian, means Christ follower,what is it that Jesus referred to when He said,
" You Must Be Born Again" this sounds conditional to me!!

Theist and Christian are not synonymous. There is no reason why someone who calls him or herself theist is necessarily beholden to anything Jesus said.

To answer the question in your thread title, I've been born again so many times that I've lost count.

 

[Quiddity]

Theist and Christian are not synonymous. There is no reason why someone who calls him or herself theist is necessarily beholden to anything Jesus said.

To answer the question in your thread title, I've been born again so many times that I've lost count.

...:biglaugh: ain't that the truth. So have I...

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Yes, I have been born again, and again, and again, and born again some more times.

 

[joeboonda]

I was born once, physically, when my mother gave birth to me, I was born twice, the second time, when I repented of my unbelief in the Risen Saviour. That's all anybody needs, friends. You can't be born again, again, when Jesus saves us He saves us "to the uttermost", that's why its called "this so great salvation". When God performs this work in us, He makes us "a new creation". Yes, we still have an old sin nature, that's for sure! But, we have been justified by His Blood, 'just if I'd' never sinned. All our sins our washed away by His blood, past, present, future, He paid once for all the sins of the entire world, from Adam to the last living soul. We may grow 'from glory to glory', our eyes opened to new understandings of ourselves, God and others, but we are only born again once, it is a finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ. We need never fear becoming 'unborn again', it is impossible, we are new creations by faith in Him alone, period. No sin, no amount of doubt, fear, even disbelief can undo what Christ has done, as Paul said, "I know whom I HAVE BELIEVED and am persuaded that HE is able to KEEP that which I've committed unto Him against that day." Glory to God, all glory goes to Christ our redeemer, our saviour, none to us, "lest any man should boast". Amen.

 

[PureX]

As so many claim to be Christians or theists,has it basically come down to what people feel like classifying themselves as and not based on what Jesus said was the qualifier
There is several hundred groups of professing Christians in our world today.
Christian, means Christ follower,what is it that Jesus referred to when He said,
" You Must Be Born Again" this sounds conditional to me!

There was no such thing as a "Christian" when Jesus spoke those words. And Jesus himself was a professed and practicing Jew. So really, setting anything Jesus or anyone else says up as part of some sort of ideological gauntlet is foolish. The religion called "Christianity" is a response to the life and teaching of Jesus. It was not "created" by Jesus, nor did Jesus make any stipulations as to who can and can't be called a Christian. All these ideas came after Jesus, as a religious response to him. And unfortunately, it has been a long habit of religious Christianity to try and make itself out to be the direct expression of Jesus' teaching and God's will.

But it's not. It's only a religion that was formed after Jesus' death in response to his supposed words and deeds.

 

[joeboonda]

There was no such thing as a "Christian" when Jesus spoke those words. And Jesus himself was a professed and practicing Jew. So really, setting anything Jesus or anyone else says up as part of some sort of ideological gauntlet is foolish. The religion called "Christianity" is a response to the life and teaching of Jesus. It was not "created" by Jesus, nor did Jesus make any stipulations as to who can and can't be called a Christian. All these ideas came after Jesus, as a religious response to him. And unfortunately, it has been a long habit of religious Christianity to try and make itself out to be the direct expression of Jesus' teaching and God's will.

But it's not. It's only a religion that was formed after Jesus' death in response to his supposed words and deeds.

24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
(King James Bible, Luke)
16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
(King James Bible, Mark)
16:19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
16:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.
28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
(King James Bible, Mathew)


Apparently it WAS created by Jesus.

 

[Mr. Hair]

Apparently it WAS created by Jesus.

Apparently so, at least according to texts written some 30-60 odd years after his death.