Are you with UN "global" law prohibition the provocation "mock/insult/lie", about all religions ?

[Godobeyer]

Did you seriously just about the ridiculousness of asking for a deal to not beat one's wife? I will repeat myself: If my husband or I ever got wind that any man (husband or otherwise) even THREATENED to strike one of our daughters, he would have an army of angry men and women on his doorstep.



This sounds so childish it's sickening.



No, you're talking about soft beat. The title of this thread is about banning the mocking/insulting of a religion.



Perhaps, but not "soft beat" or any other physical attack.



Who decides what "obey" means? Who decides what "nashiz" is?

Let me guess: the husband.

That sounds fair. :sarcastic <------ sarcasm

ok sister , you right when you said that we are off topic , but guess what
not me the first who got off topic, it's was "staff" member
,let's continous "soft beat" only in privet

 

[Godobeyer]

If you wanna participate, you need to find a willing partner.


BDSM


Aspects B&D, B/D, or BD Bondage and Discipline D&s, D/s, or Ds Dominance and submission S&M, S/M, or SM Sadism and masochism Roles Top/Dominant/Sadist partner who carries out the activity Bottom/Submissive/Masochist partner who receives the activity Switch switches between roles Prevalence Participation/tendencies 5&#8211;25% of general population[citation needed]

what make me exploise to laugh here is this picture is for western girl . because the BDSM did not exist in the muslim world .
all we know that ,a very huge number of western women are just "tools of pleasure" for men, like trade (goods) "sex for money" or "striper for money" ...etc

you would tell me it's our culture and personal freedom , i will tell it's our personal freedom and our culture too .

immorality the main reason of destory the family concept which certainly increase the divorce and domestic voilence , the immorality in the west is not something shame , the west proud of it and called it culture and freedom .
all the video clips and movies and Pub, magazins ...etc ,calling for it, day and night .

 

[LuisDantas]

what make me exploise to laugh here is this picture is for western girl . because the BDSM did not exist in the muslim world .

Why would you laught at that?

BDSM is a consensual activity, one that acknowledges that people (not all people, of course) can and do find the idea of "playing rough" attractive. It takes pains to express those feelings in ways that are respectful and safe to the people involved.

Nix was pointing out to you that while "roughness" does have a place between husband and wife (if the specific people involved both feel like it, mind you), giving the husband the "authority" to give "beats" (soft or otherwise) is something else entirely. Something a lot less respectful and quite anathema to love.

BDSM' existence as an organized movement helps people in realizing what is and what is not healthy for them specifically. Even more important is the fact that it also helps people in not hurting others, either physically or psychologically, due to unskilled or just plain unproper expression of their feelings and desires. And in intimate relationships such as marriages, such is an invaluable skill to have.

all we know that ,a very huge number of western women are just "tools of pleasure" for men, like trade (goods) "sex for money" or "striper for money" ...etc

There is some truth in that, but not nearly as much as you seem to believe. Nor are you realizing how much effort - and how much succesfull effort at that - has been made to correct that situation. I wonder what you believe that "huge number" to be.

Nor is it particularly true that submission to "soft beats" is less degrading a role for women to have, either. Actually, from my experience any kind of submission from either partner of a relationship is always degrading. A healthy relationship can't very well exist without some measure of respect between the partners (reciprocated respect, of course), as well as desire to understand and acommodate for each other and, last but not least, a degree of capability to actually surprise each other.

There is simply no substitute for the pleasant surprises that come from living with a loved one with enough creativity and personal authonomy.

you would tell me it's our culture and personal freedom , i will tell it's our personal freedom and our culture too .

I suppose you will. But there are so many far better, far more fulfilling possibilities to existence than just retreating to our own privacy and thinking ill of others.

immorality the main reason of destory the family concept which certainly increase the divorce and domestic voilence , the immorality in the west is not something shame , the west proud of it and called it culture and freedom .
all the video clips and movies and Pub, magazins ...etc ,calling for it, day and night .

In all honesty, if you think that imposing "soft beats" upon one's own spouse is not far less moral than participating in BDSM activities out of the consensus of the people involved, then you are having severe trouble understanding either or both of those ideas.

 

[Rakhel]

Ya know, I once talked to a Lebanese man who was in to kinkier...stuff... than simple BDSM. And then there was the Syrian who liked to have his hair pulled by his wife.
The Saudi who....


well this is getting really off topic

:cough, cough:

So should lying about and/or mocking religion be banned? Well as long as we also include the idea the Jews are apes and pigs out to dominate the world, you got a deal!!

 

[beenie]

BDSM most certainly does exist in Muslim society!

So do all the other "taboo" activities Muslims love to deny. Yes, there are cases of women being exploited sexually in the West, but at least we admit it and aim to fix it. As for women in Muslim society: how are they not sexually exploited? They're told they have to cover from head to toe because of their figures and the inability of men to control themselves. Without the women being damn near invisible, they are viewed as sex symbols and face being molested and raped by men.

I don't understand how Muslims can sit and point fingers about how horribly women are viewed and treated in the West, when they're doing the same thing, but disgustingly under the guise of religious doctrine.

 

[gnostic]

what make me exploise to laugh here is this picture is for western girl . because the BDSM did not exist in the muslim world .
all we know that ,a very huge number of western women are just "tools of pleasure" for men, like trade (goods) "sex for money" or "striper for money" ...etc

you would tell me it's our culture and personal freedom , i will tell it's our personal freedom and our culture too .

immorality the main reason of destory the family concept which certainly increase the divorce and domestic voilence , the immorality in the west is not something shame , the west proud of it and called it culture and freedom .
all the video clips and movies and Pub, magazins ...etc ,calling for it, day and night .

You're approaching a dangerous topic, godobeyer. Do not challenge us, unless you're willing to face the ugly truth with some parts of ugly side of Islamic today.

You're being naive and ignorant if you don't think that some Muslims don't exploit their women in the worse possible ways, and condoned by people like you.

Do you want me to list them?

Ssainhu has already mentioned a couple in which men exploit women...but I can list dozens.

The fact is I know that the western societies are no where near perfect, but at least I am willing to admit it. Are you willing to admit that some Muslims men exploit women?

If you say "no" (as in no exploitation of women), I will list them. If you challenge us or dare us, I'll list them. You have been warned.

 

[Kerr]

what make me exploise to laugh here is this picture is for western girl . because the BDSM did not exist in the muslim world .
all we know that ,a very huge number of western women are just "tools of pleasure" for men, like trade (goods) "sex for money" or "striper for money" ...etc

you would tell me it's our culture and personal freedom , i will tell it's our personal freedom and our culture too .

immorality the main reason of destory the family concept which certainly increase the divorce and domestic voilence , the immorality in the west is not something shame , the west proud of it and called it culture and freedom .
all the video clips and movies and Pub, magazins ...etc ,calling for it, day and night .

If I remember correctly, in BDSM men can be the submissive ones as well .

 

[Caladan]

BDSM, homosexuality, pornography, prostitution and other sexual 'taboos' most certainly do exist in the Muslim world. These phenomena do exist in Muslim societies, they are simply not 'acknowledged' nor discussed openly. The solution of many Muslim figures when addressing homosexuality for example (or even some forum members apparently) is to simply say 'there are no homosexuals in the Muslim world'. It's nothing more than denial and a complete lack of ability to accept homosexuals as part of society.
Bottom line is Godobeyer, you can pretend that in the Muslim world the only form of sexual expression is heterosexual intercourse in the missionary position... but don't expect anyone to treat it as nothing more than a child-like world view.

 

[Draka]

what make me exploise to laugh here is this picture is for western girl . because the BDSM did not exist in the muslim world .
all we know that ,a very huge number of western women are just "tools of pleasure" for men, like trade (goods) "sex for money" or "striper for money" ...etc

you would tell me it's our culture and personal freedom , i will tell it's our personal freedom and our culture too .

immorality the main reason of destory the family concept which certainly increase the divorce and domestic voilence , the immorality in the west is not something shame , the west proud of it and called it culture and freedom .
all the video clips and movies and Pub, magazins ...etc ,calling for it, day and night .

No, you want to know what is really hilarious? That you not only think that this does not go on in your own culture and region, but you seem to ignore the fact that men are in the submissive role just as much, if not more than women.

 

[Debater Slayer]

what make me exploise to laugh here is this picture is for western girl . because the BDSM did not exist in the muslim world .
all we know that ,a very huge number of western women are just "tools of pleasure" for men, like trade (goods) "sex for money" or "striper for money" ...etc

you would tell me it's our culture and personal freedom , i will tell it's our personal freedom and our culture too .

immorality the main reason of destory the family concept which certainly increase the divorce and domestic voilence , the immorality in the west is not something shame , the west proud of it and called it culture and freedom .
all the video clips and movies and Pub, magazins ...etc ,calling for it, day and night .

BDSM most definitely does exist everywhere humans exist. I think what you mean is that less people reveal that they are into it in some countries that emphasize its "taboo" status.

I'm not afraid to acknowledge that Egypt, which is my home country, has extremely high sexual harassment rates; acknowledging a problem is the first step toward solving it. If we keep denying that such problems exist in Muslim countries, then nothing will be accomplished to address them and people will keep living in their little utopian bubble.

As for sexual exploitation being exclusive to the "West," it really isn't. The problem of dehumanizing, abusing, and treating women as sexual objects exists in Muslim countries just as it does everywhere else. To say that any particular country is immune to such would be to turn a blind eye to fundamental problems that need to be fixed, and ignoring them certainly won't make them go away or be any less detrimental to society.

Besides, I think that taking jabs at how the "West" treats women while ignoring that similar problems exist in other countries is merely throwing stones out of the proverbial glass house. It's not like everyone doesn't also have their fair share of problems to deal with before attempting to talk down to others for the same things they are suffering from.

 

[Godobeyer]

BDSM most definitely does exist everywhere humans exist. I think what you mean is that less people reveal that they are into it in some countries that emphasize its "taboo" status.

I'm not afraid to acknowledge that Egypt, which is my home country, has extremely high sexual harassment rates; acknowledging a problem is the first step toward solving it. If we keep denying that such problems exist in Muslim countries, then nothing will be accomplished to address them and people will keep living in their little utopian bubble.

As for sexual exploitation being exclusive to the "West," it really isn't. The problem of dehumanizing, abusing, and treating women as sexual objects exists in Muslim countries just as it does everywhere else. To say that any particular country is immune to such would be to turn a blind eye to fundamental problems that need to be fixed, and ignoring them certainly won't make them go away or be any less detrimental to society.

Besides, I think that taking jabs at how the "West" treats women while ignoring that similar problems exist in other countries is merely throwing stones out of the proverbial glass house. It's not like everyone doesn't also have their fair share of problems to deal with before attempting to talk down to others for the same things they are suffering from.

Sound good that you talk about your country "Egypt" ,joker here

How about the FAMOUS law of obedience for the wife ,
I knew about egyptain family law , which allowed to the police to bring the non-subordonite wife to her husband, FORCELY.

law of obedience of the wife in egypt ,which allow to the police to bring FORCELY the wife to her husband !!!!

personaly i completely disagree with call the police , to FORCE my wife to comeback to me, if she did not accept to live with me, it's her right and only choice . because it's matter of degnity .

i wounder why this **** kind of law exist in the official family law of Egypt !!!because it's personal issue (between the couple).
(home of obedience of wife in Egypt , most of arabic world)
The House of Obedience: Women in Arab Society - Juliette Minces - Google Livres

or in arabic link &#1576;&#1610;&#1578; &#1575;&#1604;&#1591;&#1575;&#1593;&#1577;:

http://forum.egypt.com/arforum/%C7%E1%E4%DE%C7%D4%C7%CA-%C7%E1%CC%C7%CF%C9-f557/%C8%ED%CA-%C7%E1%D8%C7%DA%E5-74220.html

 

[Debater Slayer]

How about the FAMOUS law of obedience for the wife ,
I knew about egyptain family law , which allowed to the police to bring the non-subordonite wife to her husband, FORCELY.

law of obedience of the wife in egypt ,which allow to the police to bring FORCELY the wife to her husband !!!!

personaly i completely disagree with call the police , to FORCE my wife to comeback to me, if she did not accept to live with me,

it's her right and only choice . because it's matter of degnity .

i wounder why this **** kind of law exist in the official family law of Egypt !!!because it's personal issue (between the couple).
(home of obedience of wife in Egypt , most of arabic world)
The House of Obedience: Women in Arab Society - Juliette Minces - Google Livres

or in arabic link &#1576;&#1610;&#1578; &#1575;&#1604;&#1591;&#1575;&#1593;&#1577;:

http://forum.egypt.com/arforum/%C7%E1%E4%DE%C7%D4%C7%CA-%C7%E1%CC%C7%CF%C9-f557/%C8%ED%CA-%C7%E1%D8%C7%DA%E5-74220.html

That's the point I was trying to make: Egypt has many societal problems just as much as many other Muslim countries do, and acknowledging those problems is the first step toward finding solutions to them.

I'm not really familiar with the law you referenced, though. I think things may have drastically changed when it comes to marital relation laws after legal proceedings to forcibly get divorced from a husband became more common than they used to be, but that certainly doesn't mean that domestic abuse has stopped; said law was only one step toward reducing the number of women being forced to remain with abusive/negligent husbands because they couldn't find a way out of the abusive marriages.

But now that you mention it, this makes me wonder about something: If you are against someone's forcing their wife to live with them, then are you also against beating her to force her to submit to the husband? I assume that if your opinion was that wives shouldn't be forced to do something against their will, then that would apply to 'submitting' to the husband just as much as it does to living with him, and hence any perceived need for wife-beating should be completely out of the question.

Unless, of course, one thinks that the wife is obligated to be submissive to her husband even if that goes against her will, and I doubt that such a person would really give much (if any) consideration to whether or not the wife still wants to live with him.

 

[Draka]

Anyone else getting tired of this deflecting crap? Instead of ever truly dealing with the inhumanity and cruelty of that which Godobeyer is advocating using towards women all we ever seem to see is "Look over there! Look over there!" As if since other people doing questionable things (if only in his mind in some cases) should automatically excuse his advocating abuse. And no matter how he tries to define it or rationalize it, it will still be abuse. Control and abuse and treating a woman as if she is property. No amount of deflection is going to make us forget that.

 

[gnostic]

Anyone else getting tired of this deflecting crap? Instead of ever truly dealing with the inhumanity and cruelty of that which Godobeyer is advocating using towards women all we ever seem to see is "Look over there! Look over there!" As if since other people doing questionable things (if only in his mind in some cases) should automatically excuse his advocating abuse. And no matter how he tries to define it or rationalize it, it will still be abuse. Control and abuse and treating a woman as if she is property. No amount of deflection is going to make us forget that.

Agreed.

Domestic violence, particularly spousal abuses, happened everywhere, including the western societies, but that doesn't excuse Muslim husbands abusing their wives, with hit them till they submit or having sex with their wives against their will.

In Afghanistan, some months ago, if not a year or two ago, the Afghan president wanted to appease the Afghan Islamic clerics by making legal for husbands can force their women to have sex with them. Rape is rape, no matter how you dress it up. The new president and government were supposed to bring changes to the societies, with better rights and protection for women, not oppress them. It make the current government no better than the Talibans. For every step forward, they take another 5 steps back.

Just because they (like Godobeyer and Truthspeaker) tried to justify abuse of wives because of what their religion say so or their interpretations of the scriptures, doesn't in any way make it RIGHT.

If you hit them, in order to make them submit, to discipline them or control them, amount to the same thing - violent abuse towards women. Such marriage is not a marriage at all, but a master-and-slave relationship, where women (wives) are seen nothing more than properties, or slaves. Dressing up as their religious rights is seriously unconscionable.

Directing attention to the west, it is not solving the problem at all.

 

[NIX]

IMO at this point, Godobeyer's posts are mocking Islam.

I'm sure he would be the first one to agree that he should be silenced by law.

 

[gnostic]

I don't think it is the UN position to defend or protect any specific religion, and especially it has no position to protect a deity, messiah, saint, prophet or messenger.

Is your faith so weak, GodObeyer, that you need to defend your prophet or your scripture or your god?

My advice to you would to be ignore film, tv, books, cartoons that you find offensive. You that there may be someone who don't like Islam, so why waste your time on what people might say, write or think?

UN doesn't have mandate to protect religion from mockery or lies. And any law would be totally unworkable and can't be enforce without infringing on people's rights to free speeches.

If you're so damn concern about it, then migrate to Saudia Arabia, Iran or Afghanistan, where they do oppress people from free speech and freedom of religion with their oppressive laws.

If you haven't noticed, lot of people find your view on women to be offensive, because it is abuse.

 

[Godobeyer]

That's the point I was trying to make: Egypt has many societal problems just as much as many other Muslim countries do, and acknowledging those problems is the first step toward finding solutions to them.

I'm not really familiar with the law you referenced, though. I think things may have drastically changed when it comes to marital relation laws after legal proceedings to forcibly get divorced from a husband became more common than they used to be, but that certainly doesn't mean that domestic abuse has stopped; said law was only one step toward reducing the number of women being forced to remain with abusive/negligent husbands because they couldn't find a way out of the abusive marriages.

But now that you mention it, this makes me wonder about something: If you are against someone's forcing their wife to live with them, then are you also against beating her to force her to submit to the husband? I assume that if your opinion was that wives shouldn't be forced to do something against their will, then that would apply to 'submitting' to the husband just as much as it does to living with him, and hence any perceived need for wife-beating should be completely out of the question.

Unless, of course, one thinks that the wife is obligated to be submissive to her husband even if that goes against her will, and I doubt that such a person would really give much (if any) consideration to whether or not the wife still wants to live with him.

for your opinion who establish this law , from where it inspire it ?

it's not sociel problem as you claim , accualty it's ill-using islamic law . (obedience of the wife ) because they (whom establish the law) thought it's correspond Sharia law !!!!

the muslims scholars (in Alazhar) whom recomend to etablish that "disgusting" law insulting and lie about Islam by ill-using islamic verse and hadiths . do you agree ?

btw
this what really misrepresent Islam ,i am thankful that this disgusting law does not exist in Algeria .

 

[Debater Slayer]

for your opinion who establish this law , from where it inspire it ?

it's not sociel problem as you claim , accualty it's ill-using islamic law . (obedience of the wife ) because they (whom establish the law) thought it's correspond Sharia law !!!!

the muslims scholars (in Alazhar) whom recomend to etablish that "disgusting" law insulting and lie about Islam by ill-using islamic verse and hadiths . do you agree ?

btw
this what really misrepresent Islam ,i am thankful that this disgusting law does not exist in Algeria .

As I said, I'm not familiar enough with the law to comment on it in detail, especially considering that the constitution in Egypt is currently being rewritten with added revisions and amendments. It's hard to guess where said law will end up in the new constitution.

I believe this deviates a lot from the thread's main topic, though; you can start a separate thread if you want to discuss and/or debate this in detail. I may chime in there if you do, but I'll stop posting about this topic here as to not derail the thread even more than it has been.

 

[Godobeyer]

gnostic

Agreed.

Domestic violence, particularly spousal abuses, happened everywhere, including the western societies, but that doesn't excuse Muslim husbands abusing their wives, with hit them till they submit or having sex with their wives against their will.

In Afghanistan, some months ago, if not a year or two ago, the Afghan president wanted to appease the Afghan Islamic clerics by making legal for husbands can force their women to have sex with them. Rape is rape, no matter how you dress it up. The new president and government were supposed to bring changes to the societies, with better rights and protection for women, not oppress them. It make the current government no better than the Talibans. For every step forward, they take another 5 steps back.

Just because they (like Godobeyer and Truthspeaker) tried to justify abuse of wives because of what their religion say so or their interpretations of the scriptures, doesn't in any way make it RIGHT.

If you hit them, in order to make them submit, to discipline them or control them, amount to the same thing - violent abuse towards women. Such marriage is not a marriage at all, but a master-and-slave relationship, where women (wives) are seen nothing more than properties, or slaves. Dressing up as their religious rights is seriously unconscionable.

Directing attention to the west, it is not solving the problem at all.

good point .
its absolutly wrong what Afghni scholars said, that other misusing islam teaching .

the main reason of the mariage is complete the each other, if a husband or wife could not, that a problem should resolve by peaceful solution not rape or abuse .

there is no force sex in mariage ,"rape" if she get ill that no suppose to be happened , if she is ok , she had no problem to make that relation,it's forbiden to her to don't allow to him ,that considerate as abuse against the husband.

all of you misunderstand me ,the obedience of the wife should not take as obligation (by force ), it's required by love between them and respect the religion teaching .

 

[Godobeyer]

Draka

Anyone else getting tired of this deflecting crap? Instead of ever truly dealing with the inhumanity and cruelty of that which Godobeyer is advocating using towards women all we ever seem to see is "Look over there! Look over there!" As if since other people doing questionable things (if only in his mind in some cases) should automatically excuse his advocating abuse. And no matter how he tries to define it or rationalize it, it will still be abuse. Control and abuse and treating a woman as if she is property. No amount of deflection is going to make us forget that.

i promissed to don't speak again about "soft-beat" in public forum , it's not that mean i am against it or change my mind .

even that you understand it as abuse and you said it infinity times ,
there is no dealing "to reject or deny " Valid Hadiths and valid tafsir with any other sect muslim or non-muslim , which adopted by 1,5 billion sunni muslims around the world (not here in this forum of course) .ok ?

for recent discuss me and DS .
i critic the misuse of the hadiths and Quran teaching about obedience of wife in Egypt, and many countries , by some muslims scholars .

muslim sunni can critic freely the "fatwas " of any scholars but we should and could not critic a valid hadith and valid tafsir .

it's amazing how you change the subject (meaning) , accautly i just remmeber that issue in Egypt , i advocating the valid hadith and valid tafsir (about obedience ...etc ) NOT misusing them .

btw
the misusing of Quran and Hadith by some scholars which made the extremism and terrorism .do you get the point ?