As I read the Quran, which parts should I ignore?

[icehorse]

Happy New Year to you too Icehorse.

Yes, I get your point. We are already discussing arguable flaws in Islam, so believing saying Islam is seriously flawed, is redundant (I mean, we all can see this thread ). @mahasn ebn sawresho is Christian and is questioning things that have counterpart arguments in Christianity, and the result was ultimately having your post above saying Christianity is seriously flawed too. He's proven that his house is indeed made of glass

Comparison was not my intention, and if any took place, it was to make him aware of its results.

I respect your opinion of course. I also apologize for highjacking the thread by quoting someone else and responding to him like that.

No worries, I was probably a bit harsh - I appreciate the nature of our discussions.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Allah could of easily setup a system which was not disastrous..

Same old .. same old .. you always think you know better than Almighty God (so you claim) ..

..the same attitude as the 'why did God create suffering?' when He could have put us all straight away into paradise/heaven ..

..carry on .. make your direction .. we all do

 

[icehorse]

Same old .. same old .. you always think you know better than Almighty God (so you claim) ..

..the same attitude as the 'why did God create suffering?' when He could have put us all straight away into paradise/heaven ..

..carry on .. make your direction .. we all do

As long as you're aware of when you're making unfalsifiable claims... (they tend to be discussion stoppers).

 

[Shad]

Same old .. same old .. you always think you know better than Almighty God (so you claim) ..

..the same attitude as the 'why did God create suffering?' when He could have put us all straight away into paradise/heaven ..

..carry on .. make your direction .. we all do

Apparently fallible humans could abolish slavery but all powerful Allah could not.

 

[Smart_Guy]

As far as I know, slavery is now forbidden in Islam. It says in the Quran to obey God, obey the Prophet and the... um, what do you call people in positions like kings and presidents? Yeah, and those people, but only of they are found just and trustworthy in the public opinion. They come in third place, and they are allowed at some point, having some criteria, to bind some laws, however only with small side non basic laws, and within very strict rules if the result is for the good of the people and adopting with life like ending slavery. The purpose of slavery laws in Islam was to adopt with the already there slavery problem and to find those who can help with general things. Those two reason are now available through other means legally so I don't see any need for the slavery concept anymore.

That's what I believe.

 

[Union]

If the Quran really wanted to abolish slavery it could have done so in a single sentence, something like:

"Free all your slaves, and never take a slave again."

Bondage in slavery only belongs to Almighty GOD not to human . This is one of the fundamental beliefs of Islam . Secondly there are other forms of subordination like working as maid or servants in the form of contracts for your livelihood .Working for a company as an employee - it is one kind of servant-ship . Almighty ALLAH doesn't want to confuse people hence this whole system of this trade would remain intact .

The Arabic term 'Abd' , 'Malka' have different degree of understating . Hence when 'freeing Slaves' is mentioned , it means the uprooting of the bondage slavery .

 

[Shad]

As far as I know, slavery is now forbidden in Islam. It says in the Quran to obey God, obey the Prophet and the... um, what do you call people in positions like kings and presidents? Yeah, and those people, but only of they are found just and trustworthy in the public opinion. They come in third place, and they are allowed at some point, having some criteria, to bind some laws, however only with small side non basic laws, and within very strict rules if the result is for the good of the people and adopting with life like ending slavery. The purpose of slavery laws in Islam was to adopt with the already there slavery problem and to find those who can help with general things. Those two reason are now available through other means legally so I don't see any need for the slavery concept anymore.

That's what I believe.

It was never forbidden. Slavery was abolished due to pressure from the West and it's restrictions on the slave trade, it had nothing to do with Islam. Yet Islam was capable of abolishing other practices, the per-Islamic Arabia religions are long gone. Pork and alcohol was forbidden. Rules created for prayer, hygiene, etc. Recorded history contradicts post hoc rationalizations. Also the fact that other natiom without the aid of either a prophet nor Allah made it illegal. Britian made slavery illegal within it's first few years in India yet the long line of Muslim Empires never did it in the centuries each was present in India.

 

[Shad]

Bondage in slavery only belongs to Almighty GOD not to human . This is one of the fundamental beliefs of Islam . Secondly there are other forms of subordination like working as maid or servants in the form of contracts for your livelihood .Working for a company as an employee - it is one kind of servant-ship . Almighty ALLAH doesn't want to confuse people hence this whole system of this trade would remain intact .

The Arabic term 'Abd' , 'Malka' have different degree of understating . Hence when 'freeing Slaves' is mentioned , it means the uprooting of the bondage slavery .

Maids and servants can quit, they are not slaves. Employees can quit, a slave can not. You are equivocating terms which you seem to have no understanding of.

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

Dialogue here free ---
1-And when ask the or offer a special stance offer with him guide also -
When equate Christianity and Islam must offer proof of this -
Here is our interview in the issue of prayer
When observe prayer in Christianity different from prayer in Islam
Here is to determine the position and not confuse them
Submitted a of anecdotal evidence about the prayer in Islam and superstitions where the
2-The meaning of prayer in Christianity and also they do not have such myths ??
Is it permissible for equality between them at this point ??
The issue of slavery -
3-The evidence from the Koran that he does not eliminate slavery ???
While Christianity is the liberation of man ???
Is it permissible for equality between them ??
4. The issue of polygamy and cheap sex in Islam ???
Is there a concept of sex in Christian ??
One debaters talking about spirituality in Islam ??
The word is not logical !!!!
Where is the fun in the spiritual marriage with Islam ??
Matter of laughter ??
Do you mean our friend nymphs in heaven and sex day and night with Allbeckrat ??
Spirituality in Islam ???
5. Is there such sexual concepts in Christianity ???
6. colleague speaks about spirituality ???
Is spirituality is in striking Alemraep ??
7. fighting concepts in Islam ??
8. You thought that these concepts are Christian ??
10 - For these reasons shortcut
I say Christianity is not equated with Islam
Christianity has a special building depends on love
11. Do you know the love of Islam ??
12. morality of Mohammed ???
13. Is equated with morality Christ ??
14 --ana Invite anyone who wants to search in that separates Christianity from Islam ??
15 - could meet with Christian Buddha , but will not meet with Islam ??
Atheist or researcher for peace will meet with Christian ??
But atheist would not meet with Islam ??
Because Islam terrorism ??
Suffocates all freedoms

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

I see. Yea, the Qur’an is a challenging book, much like the Bible, in terms of …looking at the history of what is being mentioned and trying to reconcile that with a message of hope and love. There is a lot of beauty within Islam that I find through the prayer life, and also through reading the Qur’an. Relating to the title of your thread, I’d say don’t ignore anything in the Qur’an that you read, and base your conclusion on all you know. Only you can decide what to believe. No one can tell another what to believe, even if you sit with Bible, Qur’an Torah scholars 24/7…and they tell you how to view certain passages.

I’m a former Christian, and atheist…and now, exploring Islam…and what I’ve come to accept with religion/spirituality/faith…is we can learn about a religion through our minds, but it will be our hearts that decide to follow it. (or not)

Just my point of view.

Looking for spirituality in Islam ???
Well you --akedm spirituality of Islam ??
1. Mohammed ethics ???
Is spirituality ??
2. teachings of the Koran Is spirituality ??
Temporary marriage ??
3. polygamy
4. sex with slaves ?
5. sex in heaven ?
6. I think you want the shares of Allah Islamic companies for the manufacture of beautiful nymphs in paradise ??
7. Is spirituality is to kiss the Black Stone ??

 

[Smart_Guy]

It was never forbidden. Slavery was abolished due to pressure from the West and it's restrictions on the slave trade, it had nothing to do with Islam.

Hi there. Yes, I see where you're coming from and I see you do have a point.

Long before those West pressures (and I believe the pressure in such things comes from who owns oil not the West or else so many other things would have become forbidden), the Companion Omar forbade slavery. Omar was a khalif which means he was covered under the verse that allows rulers to bind some laws as society needs it.

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

Hi there. Yes, I see where you're coming from and I see you do have a point.

Long before those West pressures (and I believe the pressure in such things comes from who owns oil not the West or else so many other things would have become forbidden), the Companion Omar forbade slavery. Omar was a khalif which means he was covered under the verse the allows rulers to bind some laws as society needs it.

1 - Is Omar bin Khattab has the right to cancel the Koran ???
Is Omar bin al-Khattab know more than God in Islam ??
Is Omar bin al-Khattab has just more than God ?
2. During Muhammad's life verse was revealed on the division of inheritance ???
It is called state inheritance ???
3. There is the question of arithmetic in the division of the inheritance of cliques and wombs
4. God did not know how the division ??
Omar bin al -Khattab intervention ??
The fittest that verse ?? This division inheritance ? J
Called age issue ??
( Reliability of inheritance )
5. here to prove conclusively that the Koran was written by a man not of God ??
6. Look into the matter attributed to Omar bin al-Khattab
7. Omar bin al -Khattab intervention in prisoners of Badr
8. The position of the Omar bin al-Khattab was killed prisoners ??
9. Muhammad violated Omar bin al-Khattab

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

Hi there. Yes, I see where you're coming from and I see you do have a point.

Long before those West pressures (and I believe the pressure in such things comes from who owns oil not the West or else so many other things would have become forbidden), the Companion Omar forbade slavery. Omar was a khalif which means he was covered under the verse the allows rulers to bind some laws as society needs it.

Supplement -
10 -allah sent a strongly worded rebuke to Muhammad ( meaning ) ( O Muhammad ) Why did not kill prisoners ????
Prophets you killed prisoners ??
Here is compatibility between God and Omar ibn al-Khattab in attitudes ???
Was Omar bin al-Khattab receives revelation also ??

 

[Smart_Guy]

@mahasn ebn sawresho
Omar does not have the right to cancel the Quran. I explained, like two times now, about the verse that allows rulers to have a hand in secondary Islamic matters. You said you understand English.

Please also try to keep your posts oriented and well sorted, and stay on topic. If you want to add off-topics, you can always start new threads about it.

 

[Union]

Nope it isn't since there are verses which show Allah is fine with slavery such as 16:71, 30:28.

Nope . Both verses are in favor of the slaves' interests and criticizing the masters .

‏16:71 والله فضل بعضكم على بعض في الرزق فماالذين فضلوا برادي رزقهم على ماملكت ايمانهم فهم فيه سواء افبنعمة الله يجحدون

‏30:28 ضرب لكم مثلا من انفسكم هل لكم من ماملكت ايمانكم من شركاء في مارزقناكم فانتم فيه سواء تخافونهم كخيفتكم انفسكم كذلك نفصل الايات لقوم يعقلون

The highlighted parts are in questions posed to the masters of the slaves in a criticizing manner .

Allah provides verse regarding marrying of slaves to others or the master. There is no freeing of slaves in these verses, nor requirement to do so. Other verses contradict your view such as the one's I have listed before.

Marrying Ma Malakat Ayminukum already qualified them to be the rank of free women ( Muhsineen)

4:24>
والمحصنات من النساء الا ماملكت ايمانكم كتاب الله عليكم واحل لكم ماوراء ذلكم ان تبتغوا باموالكم محصنين غير مسافحين فمااستمتعم به منهن فاتوهن اجورهن فريضة ولاجناح عليكم فيما تراضيتم به من بعد الفريضة ان الله كان عليما حكيما

Moreover in numerous other verses Qur'an emphasized the importance of wives , their staunch roles and bond towards the husband and their freedom of choice to handle critical family affairs . Hence marriage itself qualifies a slave to a free woman automatically .

I can bring up ahadith and other traditional work by early muslims which further prove my point.

More than that you can bring Bible to justify slavery . However , ahadith are created by the enemies of Islam , hence no wonder you will find ingredients there to go against the teaching of the Qur'an .

Qur'an is against slavery and declared their freedom with very grave tone . Endless efforts can be expected from the enemies of Islam against this claim but this truth can not be changed .

 

[Union]

Maids and servants can quit, they are not slaves. Employees can quit, a slave can not. You are equivocating terms which you seem to have no understanding of.

I echoed that , read my post attentively . ALLAH the Al-wise didn't abolish subordination but abolish bondage slavery by announced their freedom .

 

[gnostic]

No where the Qur'an does it abolish slavery.

Just because Muhammad freed some slaves, doesn't mean he was against slavery. He may encourage other to free them, or to treat slaves better, but the selling and buying of slaves (or taking war captives as slaves) are condoned by him.

 

[YmirGF]

More than that you can bring Bible to justify slavery . However , ahadith are created by the enemies of Islam , hence no wonder you will find ingredients there to go against the teaching of the Qur'an .

Qur'an is against slavery and declared their freedom with very grave tone . Endless efforts can be expected from the enemies of Islam against this claim but this truth can not be changed .

And yet, the Muslim world embraced slavery, as in bondage slavery, for centuries after all this was written. It was only after the non-Muslim world rejected slavery that the Muslim world was forced to abandon their age old tradition. No doubt, all these good Muslim folks misunderstood the passages you are talking about.

It is amusing to hear that enemies of Islam created these ahadiths. That being the case, why would highly respected Muslims scholars repeat the stories by incorporating them into Muslim lore?

 

[Union]

No where the Qur'an does it abolish slavery.

Just because Muhammad freed some slaves, doesn't mean he was against slavery. He may encourage other to free them, or to treat slaves better, but the selling and buying of slaves (or taking war captives as slaves) are condoned by him.

Showed and discussed already with ample proofs that Slavery is uprooted in Qur'an . Please read the previous posts , revert back if you have refutation about it .

 

[muhammad_isa]

Britian made slavery illegal within it's first few years in India yet the long line of Muslim Empires never did it in the centuries each was present in India..

That's quite amusing

"Rule Britannia,
Britannia rule the waves,
Britain never, never, never will be slaves!"

Maybe .. maybe not..