As I read the Quran, which parts should I ignore?

[Smart_Guy]

@mahasn ebn sawresho

Your doing it again, your throwing bricks at others while your home is made of glass. I believe you know the corresponding proverb in Arabic.

I'm not the kinda person to criticize other beliefs (I consider it respect and manliness) even if it is to answer to criticism against mine. But all I can say is that Christianity is full of similar supposed myths and arguments to those your questioning about Islam. Others could care less and bash those (your religion) like you do to Islam, because they don't care. I'm not one of them.

You can also try to not use useless expressions like "running away from answer" or similar if you cannot understand English well (clearly seen in your posts). Your not being fair, tho maybe unintentionally.

 

[Shad]

ALLAH , the Almighty suggested to free the slaves and/or marry the slaves and that already refuted your claim , why you need to do word gymnastics ??

Alcohol was made haram by verse. Slavery was regulated by verse but never made forbidden. Regulating slavery is still an endorsement of slavery. A punishment of a master in the form of loss of a slave shows that slavery was legal. If it was illegal there would be no slave to free, no punishment related to a crime which has nothing to do with slavery. The fine treats a slave a property thus is a fine. Likewise if slavery was illegal there would be no verses recommending freeing of slaves. Regulations are policies of law regarding an institutionalized system, it is not a ban. Thus there is no refutation, rather you are unable to differentiate between haram and a regulation of a practice, law.

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

Verse 3.110 is talking about Muslim Ummah whether Arab or Non-Arab .

It does not speak for the Islamic nation ?
Arab and privatization (
Arab and sent down to you understand )
Download is an Arab ??
For these Muslim Arabs is the best nation on earth to people ???
It's racist education ?? chauvinistic ??
Are you able to provide his Muslims and Arabs to humanity in the culture , art and science ??
The best thing they gave the human race is terrorism ?

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

[

@mahasn ebn sawresho

Your doing it again, your throwing bricks at others while your home is made of glass. I believe you know the corresponding proverb in Arabic.

I'm not the kinda person to criticize other beliefs (I consider it respect and manliness) even if it is to answer to criticism against mine. But all I can say is that Christianity is full of similar supposed myths and arguments to those your questioning about Islam. Others could care less and bash those (your religion) like you do to Islam, because they don't care. I'm not one of them.

You can also try to not use useless expressions like "running away from answer" or similar if you cannot understand English well (clearly seen in your posts). Your not being fair, tho maybe unintentionally.

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

1 - I understand English, but is not fully in it?
I understand your words very well -
Arab proverb says
( If there is a glass house designed stone people )
But we must know that the home of the Rock
It is not glass
2. Is there a prayer in the Christian myths ??

1. 
   3. Christ taught us one prayer ??
   The Koran also moved ???
   This is a new piece of information you do not know ??
   The same prayer written in the Koran with the deletion of certain words ??
   4. Each prayers in our churches
   Is one of the traditions of those churches
   5. It is not from the Bible
   6. Word of the Gospel and the clear
   7. I'd say the words of the Gospel ( Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, Good Hope to humans )

 

[Caligula]

Hi Maya,

Snark noted. Just FYI, the list at the beginning of this thread comes from the pages and pages of summary notes I made as I was reading the book.

As I hinted at earlier in this thread, if the Quran was presented as an historically important work I would have no quarrels with it. But as you well know, that's not at all how Muslims represent this book. We're told that the Quran is the perfect, unalterable, final, timeless word of Allah. It's those claims that I have trouble with. And so I don't buy claims that we must read this book from the correct historical context. Nor do I buy the claim that it must be read in the original Arabic. Nor do I buy the claim that I have to open my heart to read it, or the claim that I must have Islamic scholars interpret it for me.

I would accept all of those claims if the Quran was presented as an historically important book. But if it's perfect and timeless, then all of those claims are nonsense. People making those claims are playing tennis without a net.

If it's perfect and timeless, then it's Allah's intention that I take the meaning from it that I do. And it's Allah's intention that ISIS and Boko Haram and their ilk take the meanings from it that they do. And history shows us that it's so easy for humans to take violent, intolerant, misogynistic, homophobic, anti-semetic ideas from the book. So it's clear to me that this book cannot be the basis of a peaceful religion.

Hence the OP - where DO Muslims get their beliefs and values?

That's also my view. The hardship of "negotiating" with theists comes from the proclaims of perfection they make.

A common mistake many atheists make in a debate is that they grant theists more than needed.
Apologetic not only have to prove that an act performed by a perfect god, depicted in a perfect book ain't immoral. Not at all! It has to prove that the act is perfectly/infinitely moral and any other action would have been immoral or less perfect.
For example one does not have to prove that 2 Kings 2:23-24, when two bears killed 42 children, is not immoral but that sparring the lives of those children, just scaring them, or killing them in any other way would not have been perfect or would have been immoral. Why bears and not a pack of wolves, for example? Why two bears and not three or four? Why kill 42 children and not 35, sparring the lives of the rest? And so on... . That's what claims of perfection require. The job ain't finished as soon as one "proves" it is not immoral in a certain historical context or any other BS along those lines.

 

[Union]

Alcohol was made haram by verse. Slavery was regulated by verse but never made forbidden. Regulating slavery is still an endorsement of slavery. A punishment of a master in the form of loss of a slave shows that slavery was legal. If it was illegal there would be no slave to free, no punishment related to a crime which has nothing to do with slavery. The fine treats a slave a property thus is a fine. Likewise if slavery was illegal there would be no verses recommending freeing of slaves. Regulations are policies of law regarding an institutionalized system, it is not a ban. Thus there is no refutation, rather you are unable to differentiate between haram and a regulation of a practice, law.

'Freeing Slaves' is already an abolishing instruction which will uproot the slavery from the society . Your point is valid if you would find ' be kind to slaves' , 'feed the slaves' , 'lesser the work-load for the salves' etc. instead ' free the slaves' . That makes Qur'an's stance to regulate the practice of slavery only . But freeing the slaves is already cutting the root of it and Almighty ALLAH has put this in Qur'an several times in imperative mood.

If you have seen the verse 2.177 that I posted earlier , freeing slaves is made of one the fundamental principle of Islam , as fundamental as to believe in GOD and Prophet and as vital as to perform Salah and bring-forth Zakah .

[2:177] Righteousness is not turning your faces towards the east or the west. Righteous are those who
believe in GOD,
the Last Day,
the angels,
the scripture, and
the prophets; and
they give the money, cheerfully, to the relatives, the orphans, the needy, the traveling alien, the beggars, and to free the slaves;
and they observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and
give the obligatory charity (Zakat); and
they keep their word whenever they make a promise; and they steadfastly persevere in the face of persecution, hardship, and war. These are the truthful; these are the righteous.

 

[muhammad_isa]

A punishment of a master in the form of loss of a slave shows that slavery was legal. If it was illegal there would be no slave to free, no punishment related to a crime which has nothing to do with slavery..

Your thinking is too shallow .. Allah is the Most Wise..

Have you ever stopped to think what might happen to some of the slaves if it was banned outright?
They might have been slaves all their life, and been treated fairly .. suddenly becoming a 'free-person' might have been disasterous!

You think that you are clever, but you are not..

 

[Caligula]

Your thinking is too shallow .. Allah is the Most Wise..

Have you ever stopped to think what might happen to some of the slaves if it was banned outright?
They might have been slaves all their life, and been treated fairly .. suddenly becoming a 'free-person' might have been disasterous!

You think that you are clever, but you are not..

That, my friend, is one of the many reasons for which a god can not be both infinitely wise and infinitely moral in the same time. You've just hacked his infinite morality and justness in favor of his cleverness.
I always tell theists to carefully choose their god's infinite attributes, as having all, in the same time, is a nonsense.

 

[icehorse]

ALLAH , the Almighty suggested to free the slaves and/or marry the slaves and that already refuted your claim , why you need to do word gymnastics ??

[2:177]
Righteousness is not turning your faces towards the east or the west. Righteous are those who believe in GOD, the Last Day, the angels, the scripture, and the prophets; and they give the money, cheerfully, to the relatives, the orphans, the needy, the traveling alien, the beggars, and to free the SLAVEs; and they observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and give the obligatory charity (Zakat); and they keep their word whenever they make a promise; and they steadfastly persevere in the face of persecution, hardship, and war. These are the truthful; these are the righteous.

[4:25]
Those among you who cannot afford to marry free believing women, may marry believing SLAVE women. GOD knows best about your belief, and you are equal to one another, as far as belief is concerned. You shall obtain permission from their guardians before you marry them, and pay them their due dowry equitably. They shall maintain moral behavior, by not committing adultery, or having secret lovers. Once they are freed through marriage, if they commit adultery, their punishment shall be half of that for the free women.Marrying a SLAVE shall be a last resort for those unable to wait. To be patient is better for you. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.

[4:92]
No believer shall kill another believer, unless it is an accident. If one kills a believer by accident, he shall atone by freeing a believing SLAVE, and paying a compensation to the victim's family, unless they forfeit such a compensation as a charity. If the victim belonged to people who are at war with you, though he was a believer, you shall atone by freeing a believing SLAVE. If he belonged to people with whom you have signed a peace treaty, you shall pay the compensation in addition to freeing a believing SLAVE. If you cannot find* a SLAVE to free, you shall atone by fasting two consecutive months, in order to be redeemed by GOD. GOD is Knower, Most Wise.

[5:89]
GOD does not hold you responsible for the mere utterance of oaths; He holds you responsible for your actual intentions. If you violate an oath, you shall atone by feeding ten poor people from the same food you offer to your own family, or clothing them, or by freeing a SLAVE. If you cannot afford this, then you shall fast three days. This is the atonement for violating the oaths that you swore to keep. You shall fulfill your oaths. GOD thus explains His revelations to you, that you may be appreciative.

[9:60]
Charities shall go to the poor, the needy, the workers who collect them, the new converts, to free the SLAVEs, to those burdened by sudden expenses, in the cause of GOD, and to the traveling alien. Such is GOD's commandment. GOD is Omniscient, Most Wise.

[58:3]
Those who estrange their wives in this manner, then reconcile thereafter, shall atone by freeing a SLAVE before resuming their sexual relations. This is to enlighten you. GOD is Cognizant of everything you do.

[58:4]
If you cannot find a SLAVE to free, you shall fast two consecutive months before resuming sexual relations. If you cannot fast, then you shall feed sixty poor people. You shall believe in GOD and His messenger. These are GOD's laws. The disbelievers have incurred a painful retribution.

[90:13]
The freeing of SLAVEs.

And this revolutionary verse where slaves are given the liberty to ask freedom and suggested the masters to free them with means/wealth to establish them in the society :

[24:33]
Those who cannot afford to get married shall maintain morality until GOD provides for them from His grace. Those among your servants who wish to be freed you shall grant them their wish, once you realize that they are honest. And give them from GOD's money that He has bestowed upon you. You shall not force your girls to commit prostitution, seeking the materials of this world, if they wish to be chaste. If anyone forces them, then GOD, seeing that they are forced, is Forgiver, Merciful.

If the Quran really wanted to abolish slavery it could have done so in a single sentence, something like:

"Free all your slaves, and never take a slave again."

 

[icehorse]

@mahasn ebn sawresho

Your doing it again, your throwing bricks at others while your home is made of glass. I believe you know the corresponding proverb in Arabic.

I'm not the kinda person to criticize other beliefs (I consider it respect and manliness) even if it is to answer to criticism against mine. But all I can say is that Christianity is full of similar supposed myths and arguments to those your questioning about Islam. Others could care less and bash those (your religion) like you do to Islam, because they don't care. I'm not one of them.

You can also try to not use useless expressions like "running away from answer" or similar if you cannot understand English well (clearly seen in your posts). Your not being fair, tho maybe unintentionally.

Happy New Year Smart Guy,

From my perspective, both Islam AND Christianity are seriously flawed. So when you compare the two, you make my conviction even stronger. (It's also a form of fallacy argument.)

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Lol! I ask you a single verse you gave me a website . It seems that it is really difficult for you to find such a verse I asked .
The contents of that anti-Islamic website had been refuted so many times , even on this very thread with OP .

There's many verses on that page. You want me to make a big list for you? I don't see any refutation. I see a lot of avoidance in this thread. Typical.

 

[Deidre]

This is the problem within religion, not necessarily with religion itself. This need for people to ‘compete’ as to who has the best or greatest path to God. No one ‘’owns’’ God. Everyone is free to choose his/her own path towards enlightenment, or to freely believe that a god doesn’t at all exist.

There is a very good saying…and I thought of it a lot when I was an atheist…’’To those who believe, no explanation is necessary. To those who don’t believe, no explanation will be sufficient enough.’’

 

[icehorse]

This is the problem within religion, not necessarily with religion itself. This need for people to ‘compete’ as to who has the best or greatest path to God. No one ‘’owns’’ God. Everyone is free to choose his/her own path towards enlightenment, or to freely believe that a god doesn’t at all exist.

There is a very good saying…and I thought of it a lot when I was an atheist…’’To those who believe, no explanation is necessary. To those who don’t believe, no explanation will be sufficient enough.’’

That's a good perspective. Personally, I don't think religion will go away, my interest is to understand the values of believers.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..You've just hacked his infinite morality and justness in favor of his cleverness..

Wisdom, not cleverness!
..well, what is morality?
..it all depends what the judging criteria is.

Some people think that fornication is not immoral, for instance, whereas others think that it is.

 

[Deidre]

That's a good perspective. Personally, I don't think religion will go away, my interest is to understand the values of believers.

I see. Yea, the Qur’an is a challenging book, much like the Bible, in terms of …looking at the history of what is being mentioned and trying to reconcile that with a message of hope and love. There is a lot of beauty within Islam that I find through the prayer life, and also through reading the Qur’an. Relating to the title of your thread, I’d say don’t ignore anything in the Qur’an that you read, and base your conclusion on all you know. Only you can decide what to believe. No one can tell another what to believe, even if you sit with Bible, Qur’an Torah scholars 24/7…and they tell you how to view certain passages.

I’m a former Christian, and atheist…and now, exploring Islam…and what I’ve come to accept with religion/spirituality/faith…is we can learn about a religion through our minds, but it will be our hearts that decide to follow it. (or not)

Just my point of view.

 

[Smart_Guy]

Happy New Year Smart Guy,

From my perspective, both Islam AND Christianity are seriously flawed. So when you compare the two, you make my conviction even stronger. (It's also a form of fallacy argument.)

Happy New Year to you too Icehorse.

Yes, I get your point. We are already discussing arguable flaws in Islam, so believing saying Islam is seriously flawed, is redundant (I mean, we all can see this thread ). @mahasn ebn sawresho is Christian and is questioning things that have counterpart arguments in Christianity, and the result was ultimately having your post above saying Christianity is seriously flawed too. He's proven that his house is indeed made of glass

Comparison was not my intention, and if any took place, it was to make him aware of its results.

I respect your opinion of course. I also apologize for highjacking the thread by quoting someone else and responding to him like that.

 

[Shad]

'Freeing Slaves' is already an abolishing instruction which will uproot the slavery from the society . Your point is valid if you would find ' be kind to slaves' , 'feed the slaves' , 'lesser the work-load for the salves' etc. instead ' free the slaves' . That makes Qur'an's stance to regulate the practice of slavery only . But freeing the slaves is already cutting the root of it and Almighty ALLAH has put this in Qur'an several times in imperative mood.

If you have seen the verse 2.177 that I posted earlier , freeing slaves is made of one the fundamental principle of Islam , as fundamental as to believe in GOD and Prophet and as vital as to perform Salah and bring-forth Zakah .

[2:177] Righteousness is not turning your faces towards the east or the west. Righteous are those who
believe in GOD,
the Last Day,
the angels,
the scripture, and
the prophets; and
they give the money, cheerfully, to the relatives, the orphans, the needy, the traveling alien, the beggars, and to free the slaves;
and they observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and
give the obligatory charity (Zakat); and
they keep their word whenever they make a promise; and they steadfastly persevere in the face of persecution, hardship, and war. These are the truthful; these are the righteous.

Nope it isn't since there are verses which show Allah is fine with slavery such as 16:71, 30:28. Allah provides verse regarding marrying of slaves to others or the master. There is no freeing of slaves in these verses, nor requirement to do so. Other verses contradict your view such as the one's I have listed before.

I can bring up ahadith and other traditional work by early muslims which further prove my point.

 

[Shad]

Your thinking is too shallow .. Allah is the Most Wise..

Have you ever stopped to think what might happen to some of the slaves if it was banned outright?
They might have been slaves all their life, and been treated fairly .. suddenly becoming a 'free-person' might have been disasterous!

You think that you are clever, but you are not..

Nope, I just know what the Quran says, what history of Muslim Empires proves and the work of Muslims supporting it before slavery was made illegal. I just do not give in to post hoc rationalization since it is not my religion which looks backwards.

Treating a slave fair does not justify slavery. Allah could of easily setup a system which was not disastrous. I Allah not powerful or is Allah inept? Allah demands people ignore their previous traditions, religions and way of life yet is unable to do anything about slavery. All of which caused wars, oppression and conflict yet slavery must be different. I think the evidence speaks for itself that Allah had no issue with slavery as an institution.

 

[icehorse]

I see. Yea, the Qur’an is a challenging book, much like the Bible, in terms of …looking at the history of what is being mentioned and trying to reconcile that with a message of hope and love. There is a lot of beauty within Islam that I find through the prayer life, and also through reading the Qur’an. Relating to the title of your thread, I’d say don’t ignore anything in the Qur’an that you read, and base your conclusion on all you know. Only you can decide what to believe. No one can tell another what to believe, even if you sit with Bible, Qur’an Torah scholars 24/7…and they tell you how to view certain passages.

I’m a former Christian, and atheist…and now, exploring Islam…and what I’ve come to accept with religion/spirituality/faith…is we can learn about a religion through our minds, but it will be our hearts that decide to follow it. (or not)

Just my point of view.

This perspective seems intellectually honest - very refreshing!