As I read the Quran, which parts should I ignore?

[icehorse]

...
But yes, Muhammad caused death of people simply for his existence, or rather, as it was a result somewhere along the way. Just as was the case with Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Bill Clinton... and so many other leaders. Leadership never end without blood in hands somewhere along the way. This is life, and it is harsh and not perfect.

This would all be acceptable to me if Muhammad was referred to as something like: "brilliant general", or "innovative politician" or whatever. In that case, I could relax about his flaws.

BUT... Muslims hold Muhammad to be the PERFECT human being. Muslims themselves set the bar high for Muhammad. So, if you're gonna call someone perfect, you're gonna have to put up with skepticism.

 

[icehorse]

Stepping back to the OP, via the slavery issue...

What I see in this discussion is that intelligent, literate adults, have gone on and on debating about slavery and Islam. So at best, the scripture is confusing. This is why I keep coming back to the simpler question - What do Muslims value and believe?

For example, do you Muslims want to work for theocracy?

 

[gnostic]

'Free Slaves' = Uprooting Slavery . [Ref.Quran , 2.177,4.92,5.89,58.3,58.4,4.25,24.33 ect.]

Union. Freeing slaves happened in all societies that have slavery.

Romans freed slaves, whenever they want to, but they didn't abolish slavery.

But freeing slaves doesn't actually mean ACTUALLY abolishing slavery altogether.

Muhammad may have freed a few slaves that he owned. But Muhammad didn't abolish slavery, which is the owning or selling of slaves.

Muhammad still allowed for an unspecified number of women and children to be sold as slaves, after beheading 600-900 men who didn't convert to Islam, of Banu Qurayza, in 627.

 

[Shad]

Which claim?

And my post was clear that no, current nations do not represent Islam.

So then no nation has officially used Islam to abolish slavery and slavery is still legal within the religion. You just refuted one of your own arguments.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..Muslims hold Muhammad to be the PERFECT human being..

No .. not perfect .. but certainly not comparable to the likes of you and I !

Most of the things that you don't like about him are misunderstandings .. unless, of course, you are a pacifist and believe that violence is NEVER justified for any reason, including self-defence.

Remember, Almighty God is testing us, and it's His wish that we 'police' the planet .. we're not doing that well, though .. not on a global scale, in any case..

 

[icehorse]

No .. not perfect .. but certainly not comparable to the likes of you and I !

Most of the things that you don't like about him are misunderstandings .. unless, of course, you are a pacifist and believe that violence is NEVER justified for any reason, including self-defence.

Remember, Almighty God is testing us, and it's His wish that we 'police' the planet .. we're not doing that well, though .. not on a global scale, in any case..

Well I've never before heard a Muslim say that Muhammad is not supposed to be the model of the perfect person! Wow!

In World War II the US had a general by the name of Patton. By many accounts he was an incredible general. He might not have been great in other areas of life, but let's say for the sake of discussion that he was an incredible general. By no means does that mean we should use him as the example of how to do other, non-military things. He might have been a horrible college professor for example.

So, if you want to call Muhammad a great general, sure, I'll grant you that. But the world cannot use generals as the model for how we should all act throughout our lives.

 

[psychoslice]

As far I know, no religion had abolished slavery.

Yes in many ways religion keeps their congregation in slavery under the master of fear.

 

[Smart_Guy]

So then no nation has officially used Islam to abolish slavery and slavery is still legal within the religion. You just refuted one of your own arguments.

You don't have to beat about the bush like that. I made many claims in this thread and you could have said my clam of (the specific one) yet you didn't. Was that intentional?

Believe what you wish. To me slavery is forbidden. I already explained why I believe Omar forbade it, and how yourself said that Muslims leaders abolished it.

I'll teach you something in Islam. If the Muslims rulers ban, let's say car drifting, and it was for the good of the people, following certain fair criteria, that is forbidden to in Islam within this rule. And you say Muslims abolished slavery.

 

[Smart_Guy]

This would all be acceptable to me if Muhammad was referred to as something like: "brilliant general", or "innovative politician" or whatever. In that case, I could relax about his flaws.

BUT... Muslims hold Muhammad to be the PERFECT human being. Muslims themselves set the bar high for Muhammad. So, if you're gonna call someone perfect, you're gonna have to put up with skepticism.

I don't believe he was perfect. But at any rate, people take other people as models all over the world. It is how people see them, not how they really are. Please put yourself in his place in those times when wars and insecurity were all over the place, when Muslims were targeted for just being Muslims. What would you have done?

 

[icehorse]

I don't believe he was perfect. But at any rate, people take other people as models all over the world. It is how people see them, not how they really are. Please put yourself in his place in those times when wars and insecurity were all over the place, when Muslims were targeted for just being Muslims. What would you have done?

Hi Smart_Guy,

I'm happy to agree that in 630 (or whenever), given the circumstances of the time and place, Muhammad did an amazing thing to establish the religion, AND that it was an improvement - at the time.

What I'm NOT willing to agree to is that his example is a good one in times of peace or in 2015. I think those ISIS nutjobs are following the scripture to the letter, and obviously that's a big problem.

So, good job back in 630. Not a good model for the rest of the future.

 

[Smart_Guy]

Hi Smart_Guy,

I'm happy to agree that in 630 (or whenever), given the circumstances of the time and place, Muhammad did an amazing thing to establish the religion, AND that it was an improvement - at the time.

What I'm NOT willing to agree to is that his example is a good one in times of peace or in 2015. I think those ISIS nutjobs are following the scripture to the letter, and obviously that's a big problem.

So, good job back in 630. Not a good model for the rest of the future.

Hi there!

Times change and we should adopt to those changes, I agree to this. The times of Muhammad were completely different as I explained before. I S I S is completely screwed up. Even at the times of Muhammad, he said torturing with fire is forbidden, yet I S I S burned a man alive. But that's another story of course.

I believe if Muhammad was in these times, he would have acted differently because these days we have much more peace and other helpful means compared to the times he lived in, as well as threats to Muslims are much more less.

 

[Union]

Union. Freeing slaves happened in all societies that have slavery.

Romans freed slaves, whenever they want to, but they didn't abolish slavery.

But freeing slaves doesn't actually mean ACTUALLY abolishing slavery altogether.

There is a difference , 'Free the Slaves' in Qur'an is expressed in imperative mode , a direct instruction of Almighty GOD . It is ranked as vital as believing the GOD [Ref. Q2.177] .

Hence it is not just an option rather an obligation .

Another place in Qur'an it is said that when a slave is asking for freedom , the master should accept it and should support him/her economically to ease his/her establishment in the society . [Ref. Q24.33]

Other verses encourage the people to free the slaves every now and then .

On the top of it there is not a single verse in Qur'an which advocates slavery nor condones it remotely . If you know any bring it and then we will discuss it .

Muhammad may have freed a few slaves that he owned. But Muhammad didn't abolish slavery, which is the owning or selling of slaves.

Muhammad still allowed for an unspecified number of women and children to be sold as slaves, after beheading 600-900 men who didn't convert to Islam, of Banu Qurayza, in 627.

Look Qur'an is the earliest source of Islam and all other sources like Hadith and Sirah were created some hundreds years after the demise of the Prophet Muhammad and his companions . So I don't really care of what is written in those books .

If you can prove your point from Qur'an that just buzzes me and nothing else .

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

Had returned phenomenon of slavery (if returned Jihad ) , judgments exist and will not be lost without a doubt

Hi there!

Times change and we should adopt to those changes, I agree to this. The times of Muhammad were completely different as I explained before. I S I S is completely screwed up. Even at the times of Muhammad, he said torturing with fire is forbidden, yet I S I S burned a man alive. But that's another story of course.

I believe if Muhammad was in these times, he would have acted differently because these days we have much more peace and other helpful means compared to the times he lived in, as well as threats to Muslims are much more less.

.

 

[Shad]

You don't have to beat about the bush like that. I made many claims in this thread and you could have said my clam of (the specific one) yet you didn't. Was that intentional?

Believe what you wish. To me slavery is forbidden. I already explained why I believe Omar forbade it, and how yourself said that Muslims leaders abolished it.

I'll teach you something in Islam. If the Muslims rulers ban, let's say car drifting, and it was for the good of the people, following certain fair criteria, that is forbidden to in Islam within this rule. And you say Muslims abolished slavery.

Your view of Umar is untenable given history of slavery after his rule and his cause of death. The Muslim leaders which banned slavery did so with secular law not Islamic law. The Ottomans in particular used a loophole in Sharia to make the practice untenable not illegal. Muslims may have abolished it but it had nothing to do with Islam but secular law and influence. So it took non-Muslims to force the point on Muslim to get any results and made them bypass their own legal code.

So Saudi Arabia bring back slavery as legal was for the good of Muslims right? Along with the other states which reestablished slavery post Ottoman Empire. You can not have it both ways here.

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

Hi there!

Times change and we should adopt to those changes, I agree to this. The times of Muhammad were completely different as I explained before. I S I S is completely screwed up. Even at the times of Muhammad, he said torturing with fire is forbidden, yet I S I S burned a man alive. But that's another story of course.

I believe if Muhammad was in these times, he would have acted differently because these days we have much more peace and other helpful means compared to the times he lived in, as well as threats to Muslims are much more less.

This is the scientists and the Senate Muslims esteemed position ???
I think that your personal situation is far from Islam ???
Do you left Islam ??
Do you think that the actions of Muhammad are not true ??
If the actions of Muhammad are not true why you followed mohammad ?

 

[Shad]

Another place in Qur'an it is said that when a slave is asking for freedom , the master should accept it and should support him/her economically to ease his/her establishment in the society . [Ref. Q24.33]

This has parameters which are solely judged by the master. If a master does not find good and trustworthy then no such contract need be made. The deed also has a parameter regarding the slaves cost so Islam sees slaves as property.

On the top of it there is not a single verse in Qur'an which advocates slavery nor condones it remotely . If you know any bring it and then we will discuss it .

Any verse which covers a slave is an endorsement of slavery. Verses regarding conduct, practices and law regarding slaves are an endorsement of the practice. Rather there is no verse saying slavery is forbidden.

Look Qur'an is the earliest source of Islam and all other sources like Hadith and Sirah were created some hundreds years after the demise of the Prophet Muhammad and his companions . So I don't really care of what is written in those books .

Ignoring Muslim tradition is convenient but untenable. It is merely cherry picking and confirmation bias.

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

to -Smart_Guy Reseftance is mutile!
Sexual intercourse
With slaves is the second part of the Quranic verse ??
Are you able to change the rule this verse ??
Dear smart ??

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

to- Smart_Guy Reseftance is mutile!
Altkaah ( mean ) lying
Here's this source
Valtkip in religion is that these rights appears contrary to what line the religious ; lies and deception to the religion of God and an enemy unjustly .
Ibn al-Qayyim may God have mercy on him , said:
" Pious slave says that contrary to what people think of prevention is hated it if it did not speak religiously sanctioned lying . "

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

I told you I speak Arabic
I do not need to source until proven health of my word
But I need to bring some sources
I even know the other type of honesty about Islam here and work on the deployment of free, too Islamic culture

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

You don't have to beat about the bush like that. I made many claims in this thread and you could have said my clam of (the specific one) yet you didn't. Was that intentional?

Believe what you wish. To me slavery is forbidden. I already explained why I believe Omar forbade it, and how yourself said that Muslims leaders abolished it.

I'll teach you something in Islam. If the Muslims rulers ban, let's say car drifting, and it was for the good of the people, following certain fair criteria, that is forbidden to in Islam within this rule. And you say Muslims abolished slavery.

Omar prevent slavery ???
Question for you ???
1 - Is Omar bin al-Khattab able to cancel the word of God ???
2. Does the Omar bin Khattab just more than God ???
3. Does Omar bin al-Khattab know more than God ?
4. I have the right to ask these questions
5. It is my right to wait for the answer ??