As I read the Quran, which parts should I ignore?

[gnostic]

Whenever Allah speak of himself in the 3rd-person. It's disturbing...it shows a weak mind...and it's disturbing...

 

[Union]

Actually, "salat not mentioned in the Quran" is not accurate. The Quran does tell us to perform salat more than once and one of the five prayers is mentioned in the description "the middle salat". The physically performed prayers, AKA salawt, are 5, a number that has a middle part. It also tells us to perform it with the verb "aqimu" which is derived from the noun "iqama", the short call to start prayer that comes after "adhan".

So I believe that the Quran does call for prayer "salat" but the details where delivered to us by Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him. I believe this is one proof that teachings of the Prophet is an important part of Islam, yet still comes in second place.

It was said ' 5 times Salawat' is not in Qur'an - which is right , otherwise 100 verses pertained the Salah . What ALLAH , the Almighty described about Salah in Qur'an is enough and all that we need to follow . For details please see 'Salah in Qur'an' in Quranist DIR section .

 

[DawudTalut]

Actually, "salat not mentioned in the Quran" is not accurate. The Quran does tell us to perform salat more than once and one of the five prayers is mentioned in the description "the middle salat". The physically performed prayers, AKA salawt, are 5, a number that has a middle part. It also tells us to perform it with the verb "aqimu" which is derived from the noun "iqama", the short call to start prayer that comes after "adhan".

So I believe that the Quran does call for prayer "salat" but the details where delivered to us by Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him. I believe this is one proof that teachings of the Prophet is an important part of Islam, yet still comes in second place.

Peace be on you.
Also people were offering Salat during the time of Holy Prophet (s.a.w.) and just after. They were following his blessed model; repeated Sunnah i.e five daily Prayers (Salat). (it was before collection of Ahadith)
[33:22] Verily you have in the Prophet of Allah an excellent model, for him who fears Allah and the Last Day and who remembers Allah much.

EDIT:
= Obviously Sunnah and Hadith means 'what is in accordance to Quran'.
= In various verses, times of five Prayers are available.

 

[DawudTalut]

Whenever Allah speak of himself in the 3rd-person. It's disturbing...it shows a weak mind...and it's disturbing...

1-Majesty and
2-All divine systems subordinate to Allah, the method is found in human literature too.
e.g.
[3:19] Allah bears witness that there is no God but He — and also do the angels and those possessed of knowledge — Maintainer of justice; there is no God but He, the Mighty, the Wise.

 

[icehorse]

You don't seem to understand the first thing about Islam. So allow me to explain:

Islam is combination of both the Quran and the Sunna (behavior of Muhammed, which comes from both the Sira, the biography of Muhhamed, and the Hadith, collections of his sayings). In fact the Quran is only roughly about 16% of the text in which Islam is based, the majority of it is actually the Sunna. So you can see quoting the Quran is not really much to the point. So what should someone like you who wants to find out what Muslims believe and value do? Read the Sharia! The Sharia is the Quran and Sunna interpreted by Islam's finest scholars. The Reliance of the Traveller, for example, is a 14th century book on Shira certified by 5 of the greatest Islamic scholars today (there is no actual universal authority in Islam to say how one should understand, for example, a particular Quranic verse. Majority consensus of mainstream scholars is as close as one will get to authoritative Islam).

If you do this you find that Islam only approves of slavery for Kaffir, which is to say non-muslims. However this is a misleading translation because everything in Islam has a political component and Kaffar (plural of Kaffir) aren't simply non-believers they are bottom class citizens in the Islamic state. They can be enslaved, raped, and all other manner of awful stuff. Muslims however cannot, legally, do any of this stuff to each other. Oh yea Muslims are allowed to purposefully deceive Kaffar as to the real nature of Islam. This is called taqiyya, and such deception is considered a sacred act. The third comment on this board in fact is a good example, but the comment right above mine is an even better one.

Sharia ultimately is what every Muslim has been obliged to strive for whether they accept the use of political violence as a means for it or not. For every Muslim, non-muslim legal documents such as the U.S. Constitution are man made documents of ignorance, jahililyah, that must submit to Sharia law.

So you can see your post is actually quite nonsensical since you are only quoting the Quran ( which really only exists in Arabic, anyway) and not the Sharia, which since it is only human utterance can be translated. If you had done this then you would know that O9.0: Jihad means war against the Kaffar to establish Islam or O8.1: When a person who has reached puberty and is sane, voluntarily apostatizes from Islam, he deserves to be killed.

Muslims would like you to read the Quran, where they can simply mislead you about the meaning of certain obscure passages (and the Quran has been compiled in such a way by the second caliph, Uthman ibn Affan, that really all the verses are obscure), they do not, however, want you to read Shira texts such as The Reliance of the Traveller.

Hi asier9,

And a friendly welcome to you too!

Actually, I've heard everything you just said before. My experience debating Muslims is that when I point out things said in the Sunna, I'm told that only the Quran is meaningful. So it's a bit of a shell game in my experience.

And again, the point of the OP is to determine what Muslims value and believe.

 

[icehorse]

You believe in all these, i believe in the Shariah Law as mentioned in the Quran and Hadith. We all believe differently. Different people and different beliefs, its beautiful to see that.

Hi SotO,

I understand that Sharia is quite extensive and difficult to summarize. That said, I think that Sharia calls for some things that trouble me. Are the following ideas part of Sharia as you know it?:

- The law of the land is Islamic, not secular.
- Blasphemy is a crime.
- Apostasy is a crime
- Adultery is a capital offense (for women at least)
- Homosexual sex is a crime
- Non-Muslims are treated as second-class citizens

I think that all of these ideas are dangerous. As I look across the countries that are Muslim-majority, I don't see any that strike me as a good example of a flourishing society.

p.s. According to large, recent polls, the ideas I listed above, are in fact held by many Muslims.

 

[DawudTalut]

I'd like to gain a basic understanding of Islam. ...
- 8:73 - Create a caliphate

Peace be on you.

[24:56] Allah had promised to those among you who believe and do good works that He will surely make them Successors in the earth, as He made Successors from among those who were before them; and that He will surely establish for them their religion which He has chosen for them; and that He will surely give them in exchange security and peace after their fear: They will worship Me, and they will not associate anything with Me. Then whoso is ungrateful after that, they will be the rebellious.

Various aspects of Khilafat @
Khilafat | Caliphate | The Guided Khilafat | Khilafat e Ahmadiyya - Al Islam Online

Khalifa Of Islam | Hazrat Khalifatul Masih V

Note 2630 @ The Holy Quran

Prophecy of Holy Prophet (s.a.w.) about Khilafat fully fullfilled @ What did the Prophet Muhammad Prophecy ? | ReligiousForums.com

Now the only way to return to glory and peaceful existence in the world is through Khilafat, as verse clearly says.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I am not so sure what you are trying to point out here but both those commands in Bible were from GOD . Can GOD really give such brutal commands to punish the innocents ? There are plenty such brutal commands are existing in Bible . But Qur'an has not a single such like these . Not a single , seriously .

The nice thing about the Bible is that it is open to critique and that is a mixture of various sorts of writings which have to be placed into context in order to be properly understood and, even then, those understandings are multifaceted. Those verses are part of the Israelite national epic and so they function as a sort of ethnic propaganda myth on one level. But as I said, those are not eternal commands and have nothing to do with us today. Those events probably didn't even happen, either.

You cannot deflect from honest criticism of the Qur'an by turning to Biblical passages. The books simply are not the same!

 

[Godobeyer]

Hi DawudTalut,

I appreciate you taking the time to make your thoughtful response. I also trust that this is your honest interpretation. But I also have to notice that your explanation is not parsimonious. This is a huge problem. It's a huge problem because the evidence in the world is that hundreds of millions of Muslims choose more parsimonious, easier to understand and interpret meanings. Groups like ISIS and Boko Haram are at the extreme end of this group, but hundreds of millions of Muslims who are not extremists demonstrate that they take away many of the same ideas I listed above.

let's me explain to by exemples from your current life in USA:

1-
there are US laws , which punish the criminals , or call for defending for USA ,so anyone can qoute these laws and miss-interprete them?

2-in USA police or army or citizens there are bad people whom breaking the US laws .


I considere ISIS and Boko Haram as missused the meaning of Quran or they are just corrupters , and they breaking the Laws of Quran .

 

[Union]

The nice thing about the Bible is that it is open to critique and that is a mixture of various sorts of writings which have to be placed into context in order to be properly understood and, even then, those understandings are multifaceted. Those verses are part of the Israelite national epic and so they function as a sort of ethnic propaganda myth on one level. But as I said, those are not eternal commands and have nothing to do with us today. Those events probably didn't even happen, either.

You cannot deflect from honest criticism of the Qur'an by turning to Biblical passages. The books simply are not the same!

I like that you said Bible is full of ethnic propaganda and myths . I also asked to bring a single verse like those in Bible but not asking again ,as the case is dismissed .

Qur'an doesn't have any ethnic propaganda and myths,,,,

 

[Godobeyer]

I have other cool exemple , a friend made heavy joke with me ,

he told suddenly " the things that you did , Satan him self , would never dare did them " !!! and he repeated it to me servel times afront my friends , i got angry very much , i felt that he insult me .

then he told me " you pray (salat) but the Satan don't pray " so i just was joking with you .

btw , this is big exemple how the people miss-interpretation Quran , Icehorse

 

[Union]

I have other cool exemple , a friend made heavy joke with me ,

he told suddenly " the things that you did , Satan him self , would never dare did them " !!! and he repeated it to me servel times afront my friends , i got angry very much , i felt that he insult me .

then he told me " you pray (salat) but the Satan don't pray " so i just was joking with you .

btw , this is big exemple how the people miss-interpretation Quran , Icehorse

Cool example indeed .

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I like that you said Bible is full of ethnic propaganda and myths . I also asked to bring a single verse like those in Bible but not asking again ,as the case is dismissed .

Mind you, I'm not using "propaganda" and "myth" in a negative fashion. Much of the Old Testament is the national epic of the Hebrew people. It contains their hopes, fears, triumphs and struggles. It's their worldview. I'm a Christian and the Old Testament is as sacred to us as it is to Jews. But you don't seem to understand the difference of how Christians and Jews view the Bible as compared to how Muslims view the Qur'an. They're two totally different things. Most Muslims I've spoken to fall into the same error.

Qur'an doesn't have any ethnic propaganda and myths,,,,

Sure, it does. It berates the Jews, Christians and non-believers. It takes Jewish and Christian mythology and makes it into a sort of hybrid. Arabic is deemed to be the most sacred language and the Qur'an is only viewed as "authentic" when it's in Arabic. Arabs have usurped the promises of the Jews by linking themselves to Ismael where the Jews traces themselves back to Isaac. Islam is a sort of Arab ethno-religion, similar to how Judaism is the ethnic religion of the Jewish people, which makes sense since Muhammad basically ripped off Judaism in a lot of aspects and focused it on his people.

 

[Shad]

Sorry man if I was obscure to express what I wanted to say .I was saying that according to Qur'an jizyah is imposed on only the non-believers who engaged in war against Muslim . Hence after getting subdued its only them who has to pay this , not those non-believers who had not waged war .
Whatsoever , Jizyah is derived from the root Jim Zay Ya , which is used in Qur'an for more than 100 times [Ref.2.85,2.191,3.87,3.136,9.82,9.95 etc.] . The root meaning of Jizyah is recompense , reward . It never meant to be tax in Qur'an .
Having said its root meaning , we can now look into the verse where this law is imposed :
[009:029] Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth from the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

'Jizyah' was imposed upon the people whom the Muslim nation was fighting with . If we start from the first verse of chapter 09 , we see that the Pagans were oppressing the Muslim in different ways and was engaged in war . Hence Jiziyah , which we know from the Qur'an means recompense , is the amount for making up the the losses due to the war . It could be in the form of money , property , service etc. Hence logically there shouldn't be any fix rate of Jizyah rather it should as much as to recompense the loss of the Muslim victim .

History contradicts your views as common people which took no part in wars were forced to pay the tax when their rulers went to war. So I could take no part in a war but since my king did I am now part of the group which pays the tax.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..those are not eternal commands and have nothing to do with us today..

You're not Jewish, then..

 

[muhammad_isa]

..then he told me " you pray (salat) but the Satan don't pray " so i just was joking with you ..

I wouldn't be so sure .. satan 'tells' us not to pray, but that doesn't mean that he doesn't ..

..that probably sounds odd .. but he's very cunning .. naturally, his intention wouldn't be sincere..

 

[Shad]

In the light of verses in chapter 90, it simple means if such condition exist there are slaves [as they still exist in various forms]....BUT Islam definitely want slavery ENDs.

"An Italian professor, Laura Veccia Vaglieri writes that slavery has been around ever since human civilisation began and it remains. She opines that the condition of slavery among Muslim nations is comparatively better. She writes about the benevolence of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be on him) and cites him as saying ‘do not say he is my slave, rather say he is my son and do not say she is my female-slave rather say she is my daughter. She writes that on reflection the Prophet of Islam (peace and blessings of Allah be on him) made magnificent reformations in this matter. In pre-Islamic days a person in debt faced the possibility of having his freedom snatched, but after Islam no Muslim could enslave another free Muslim. Not only did the Prophet of Islam (peace and blessings of Allah be on him) limit slavery, rather he introduced regulations about this and told the Muslims to march onwards regarding it until such time that all slaves were free. "
Source: Friday Sermon: Elucidation of Freedom, Slavery and Islamic teachings

Nonsense, if Islam wanted to end slavery it would have made it haram from the start rather than prescribing various rules and regulations of slavery. It made alcohol haram directly without question. It did not do this for slavery and the history of Muslim Empires contradicts your views. Even your quote is evidence of my point. " after Islam no Muslim could enslave another free Muslim." It does not say no human, no person, it provides parameter of who can not become a slave. The rest is ad hoc rationalization which is contradicted by recorded history.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..Arabic is deemed to be the most sacred language and the Qur'an is only viewed as "authentic" when it's in Arabic.

Of course it's revered in Arabic, as it's the language of revelation. It rose up the Arab nations at quite a pace!

..Arabs have usurped the promises of the Jews by linking themselves to Ismael where the Jews traces themselves back to Isaac. Islam is a sort of Arab ethno-religion, similar to how Judaism is the ethnic religion of the Jewish people..

Mmm .. and their father is Abraham, peace be with them. The Bible informs us that 'great nations' would 'spring from their loins'

Praise be to God, the Highest! He is able to do ALL things..

 

[muhammad_isa]

Nonsense, if Islam wanted to end slavery it would have made it haram from the start rather than prescribing various rules and regulations of slavery. It made alcohol haram directly without question..

No, alcohol was not declared illegal at first .. Allah is Wise, Aware of All things..

 

[icehorse]

let's me explain to by exemples from your current life in USA:

1- there are US laws , which punish the criminals , or call for defending for USA ,so anyone can qoute these laws and miss-interprete them?

2- in USA police or army or citizens there are bad people whom breaking the US laws .

I considere ISIS and Boko Haram as missused the meaning of Quran or they are just corrupters , and they breaking the Laws of Quran .

hi Godo!

Again, I'm curious to know what Muslims value and believe. So, in your example, where is it written down which Islamic values and beliefs ISIS is breaking? I can believe you if you say ISIS is not Islamic, but how do you know? I want to know what you think Islam is. You must have a definition of Islam if you can say ISIS is NOT Islam. Does this make sense?