Sheldon
Veteran Member
But these are subjective assumptions, and unevidenced claims themselves, they're not objective evidence for a deity.
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But these are subjective assumptions, and unevidenced claims themselves, they're not objective evidence for a deity.
How so? Seems objective to me.
Sheldon
Veteran Member
What have those biological facts to do with the claim a soul exists? You'd need to be a lot more specific, and demonstrate something approaching objective evidence.
Sheldon
Veteran Member
Well let's take a look then.
It's hard to fully grasp what this even saying, what do you mean "who we are" for a start? Also accurate reality? There is only reality, and how accurately we understand it is defendant on how reliable the objective evidence is. So you have offered a subjective opinion, and a poorly defined criteria in your opening premise here.
A subjective unevidenced opinion again, that involves an unevidenced assumption about a deity. I assume you mean an accurate understanding of reality? However why make the unevidenced assumption that our lack of understanding has anything to do with any deity?
Again you are simply making a subjective unevidenced assertion that uses a two begging the question fallacies. You're not offering objective evidence for a deity, but subjective opinions of why you seem to think a deity is necessary for something, like an understanding of reality, but there is no objective evidence for these assumptions?
These are subjective arguments of course, and not objective evidence, but worse here is that if one uses assumptions in an argument, about the very thing one is arguing for, in this case a deity, then that is called a begging the question fallacy as well.
All you're doing is saying they are fallacies and subjective assumption. But not showing why.
A person can say "persevering" is a virtue, and you can "baseless assumption", somethings can't be reduced further. All my premises can't be reduced further, but they are manifestly clear and obvious facts.
KWED
Scratching head, scratching knee
The "who we are" is subjective and variable, so the term "accurate" cannot apply.
KWED
Scratching head, scratching knee
Sorry, but I have no idea what you are trying to say here.
It has to apply or it's an illusion and just made up.
Sheldon
Veteran Member
Well I explained that a begging the question fallacy, involved making unevidenced assumptions in an argument, about the thing you were arguing for, in this case a deity.
So again that is a claim not evidence, it also is not clear what you mean by who we are. I also have no idea what you mean by "an accurate reality to who we are"? In an argument it is essential to be accurate and not vague.
Again this is not a demonstration of evidence clearly, it is another claim, you are offering an opinion, and again your meaning is pretty vague, what does it mean exactly? Also since you've created an argument for a deity, you cannot make assumptions about that deity as you have done here, as that would be a begging the question fallacy. What objective evidence can you demonstrate that a deity is required in the way you describe, what does it even mean?
Another subjective claim, and again what does "exist in his vision" mean exactly, and again you seem to be just assuming this, without demonstrating any objective evidence to support your claim that this (whatever it means) is a necessary condition of existence.
And yet another claim, and again about the very thing you are arguing for, a deity, which makes it a begging the question fallacy. What objective evidence can you demonstrate for this claim?
You can't rationally support a claim that a deity exists, with more unevidenced claims about that deity. One unevidenced belief is not supported by another and another and so on.
So you just deny and label fallacies and say unproven? And think that's a proper way to refute an argument?
I posted a detailed post so if you want more details go to that one. And you attack premises and also say it's invalid argument.
You got to settle down and just see the argument first. Then tell me where you disagree and why.
Salam
(1) Is Value of who we are objective or subjective.
We would not even try to estimate who we are, if there was not an objective value to who we are. We don't subjectively decided we are good or bad, we try to rather see if we are good or bad.
Asking other humans feedback is not a problem, but we take account of what they say to help us recognize who we are. That is if we take their feedback without an objective value to who we are, they themselves would be just making it up and it would have no value.
The fact that we even take account of what others say, show, we are trying to recognize who we are and our value, some trying even to their best of their abilities.
We don't just assign ourselves value, we try to recognize what our value is, which means we have an objective value.
(2) We are a perception
Seeing compassion, love, justice, in ourselves and others, requires us to assess actions and believe there is personhood to the person, and states of being that are non-material. When I say non-material, I am not necessarily saying a soul yet, let's say, it's a program generated by the brain from an atheist point of view. Regardless of what viewpoint, we are an idea/non-material/perception type existence. Which brings the next point.
(3) Can our brains generate who we are accurately?
I say they cannot, because they don't have an objective measurement to who we are and way of assessing our actions, in short, we don't assign who we are accurately but rather estimate and somethings we are right about ourselves and other things wrong.
(4) If we have an objective value, where does it exist?
I say if we an objective value, the only place we really can exist is with God, in his vision, judging us exactly as we are. God sees us exactly as we are, and the only thing that can.
Putting the premises together:
(1) We are a perception.
(2) That value we perceive ourselves is not accurate to who we are.
(3) We have an accurate value to who we are.
(4) The accurate value to who we are, can only be seen and assigned by God (Perfect judge and assessor to who we are).
Therefore God exists.
(1) Is Value of who we are objective or subjective.
We would not even try to estimate who we are, if there was not an objective value to who we are. We don't subjectively decided we are good or bad, we try to rather see if we are good or bad.
Asking other humans feedback is not a problem, but we take account of what they say to help us recognize who we are. That is if we take their feedback without an objective value to who we are, they themselves would be just making it up and it would have no value.
The fact that we even take account of what others say, show, we are trying to recognize who we are and our value, some trying even to their best of their abilities.
We don't just assign ourselves value, we try to recognize what our value is, which means we have an objective value.
(2) We are a perception
Seeing compassion, love, justice, in ourselves and others, requires us to assess actions and believe there is personhood to the person, and states of being that are non-material. When I say non-material, I am not necessarily saying a soul yet, let's say, it's a program generated by the brain from an atheist point of view. Regardless of what viewpoint, we are an idea/non-material/perception type existence. Which brings the next point.
(3) Can our brains generate who we are accurately?
I say they cannot, because they don't have an objective measurement to who we are and way of assessing our actions, in short, we don't assign who we are accurately but rather estimate and somethings we are right about ourselves and other things wrong.
(4) If we have an objective value, where does it exist?
I say if we an objective value, the only place we really can exist is with God, in his vision, judging us exactly as we are. God sees us exactly as we are, and the only thing that can.
Putting the premises together:
(1) We are a perception.
(2) That value we perceive ourselves is not accurate to who we are.
(3) We have an accurate value to who we are.
(4) The accurate value to who we are, can only be seen and assigned by God (Perfect judge and assessor to who we are).
Therefore God exists.
This is from years ago on another forum in a galaxy far far away (okay I might have made up the galaxy part):
This was discussed earlier. I look at the moon, and I have subjective impression of it's size. However it's size is objectively there. There is nothing I can do about it. I would not however have subjective impression of it's size without belief that there is an objective measurement to it.
When it comes to value of the self, the questions are:
what is it? (1)
how do we see it? (2)
how do we know there is an objective value to it (if any)? (3)
Do we have objective measurement to ourselves? (4)
If so, how do we measure it?(5)
If not, how does this measurement exist and get maintained ?(6)
What role do good actions and bad actions have to do with our quality/value/rank? (7)
What system is in place to make our value objectively increased or decreased depending on our actions, how is this even possible that we inherit actions and increase our value? (8)
First of all, if we say our value is purely subjectively us giving ourselves value, then if someone values us less, and we value ourselves more, what is our true value? If we decide we are the most important person in the world, do we automatically become the most important person in the world?
Do we set our value so if I want to make myself so great in my eyes, then automatically I can do this?
Obviously, we have don't simply assign value to ourselves, but when we judge, we do so with some sort of guesstimate at our true value. We all believe there is a measurement to who we are.
...and that they may know their Lord encompasses everything in number. (Quran)
Our value whatever it is, is not maintained by our perceptions. But we know it requires perception. As it requires perception, there has to be an objective perception who maintains that value.
How do we see it? We can see that we aren't made of some sort of unique value that is totally different then a value in another being, like one human is of totally different type x value and another human being is of y value, and x and y have nothing really in common. There is something binding us. There is something in all this. That something, in the words of Imam Ali, is expressed:
"He is in all things without being merged in them neither separate from them"
The different hues of value, the different forms, the different relationships established through it, are all manifestations of a greater value, a link to something greater, an absolute source and basis, an eternal reality.
As objective value cannot be arbitrary, it follows it's eternal and not something God can create out of nothing. Rather he creates through the truth of vision of himself for witnesses all things in himself.
Naturally we can all see this. That for example, there is something extra special about love. When we value a person to the degree we love them, we are bonding with "value" and valuing in a special way, that transcends and points to something special.
These signs of value, from honor, to courage, to compassion, to affection, are all signs of something greater. Something that these things are emerging from, but are depending to manifest.
That in thing lives inside of us "he is all things..."but he isn't merged into us neither is he separate from us.
The signs point in a way, in which they link to perfection, to one essence, that unites them all in a single absolute reality. They point to transcendence that doesn't lack a single possible existence or praise or beauty or glory or greatness or anything to be valued. The Ultimate Value by which all value emerges from.
This is one of the reflections of Quran "Or are they created from nothing...", contrary to what people might think, this verse is clearly not saying that anyone believes nothing existed and then creation emerged from that. Some humans believe that universe was eternal, however this verse is addressing the polytheists, do they think their essence is created from nothing, their souls are just created by God from nothing. Rather, he created it from water of his own light, his own value, and created through his name/face/light.
Now this explanation of the name of God/face of God the true reality of the human being, how can we know it to be true? This takes sincere reflection upon which we realize that value is not something we simply make up or biological brain assigns and maintains.
Aside from this is how our positive or negative actions play a role in our value. As said before, we don't simply decide we are the best people on earth, and hence become the best person on earth.
There is a value to who we are. When do actions, we inherit it. Our value is actually increased or decreased. We don't decide the degree of that measurement. Sure we may think of ourselves at that moment and have our over all judgement of ourselves, but we all realize if Hitler thinks he is righteous it doesn't make him what he values of himself automatically the true value of himself. His actions degrade him, they put on the negative scale, in - side of zero, not on the positive.
There is something making us inherit our actions, a judge that perceives who we are, because this qualitive type measurement can only be maintained by quality type perception.
It's not like a rock, it has weight, but it doesn't matter if we measure it or not, this is qualitive, in which it depends on perception of who we are and maintaining that and making us inherit our actions.
And so these type of reminders, that we do believe that there is some sort living record to who we are, that it forms the true nature of value of ourselves, even if we underestimate or overestimate ourselves, there is an objective value.
We know these to be true, and would not be able to subjectively value ourselves without belief there is an objective value.
We see these signs in ourselves and in the horizons, pointing to something Greater. Something in which is the source of all it and unites all possible levels of value.
The only way to measure it is to gain vision from the vision of the Creator, the closer it is to the vision of the absolute, the closer it is to making right judgement.
However we all been given a degree of that judgement or would not be able to condemn the likes of Saddam or praise the likes of Mandela.
When we do good acts we are in a state, there is beauty to it if good, we inherit that beauty. The truth is there infinite beauties, but there is beauty that unites all beauty, and there is souls that are upon that united beauty. It's they who manifest God the most, reminding us of God's unity thereby. But we can never grasp their value in that way God values them, because only God can see himself.
Imam Ja`far as-Sadiq (as) said: "Surely, we have revealed it on the Night of value." (97:1) The night is Fatima al-Zahra, and the Value is God. Whoever recognizes Fatima in her rightful manner will have comprehended the Night of Value. She was named Fatima because the Creation has been prevented (fatamu) from recognizing her [fully]."
This was discussed earlier. I look at the moon, and I have subjective impression of it's size. However it's size is objectively there. There is nothing I can do about it. I would not however have subjective impression of it's size without belief that there is an objective measurement to it.
When it comes to value of the self, the questions are:
what is it? (1)
how do we see it? (2)
how do we know there is an objective value to it (if any)? (3)
Do we have objective measurement to ourselves? (4)
If so, how do we measure it?(5)
If not, how does this measurement exist and get maintained ?(6)
What role do good actions and bad actions have to do with our quality/value/rank? (7)
What system is in place to make our value objectively increased or decreased depending on our actions, how is this even possible that we inherit actions and increase our value? (8)
First of all, if we say our value is purely subjectively us giving ourselves value, then if someone values us less, and we value ourselves more, what is our true value? If we decide we are the most important person in the world, do we automatically become the most important person in the world?
Do we set our value so if I want to make myself so great in my eyes, then automatically I can do this?
Obviously, we have don't simply assign value to ourselves, but when we judge, we do so with some sort of guesstimate at our true value. We all believe there is a measurement to who we are.
...and that they may know their Lord encompasses everything in number. (Quran)
Our value whatever it is, is not maintained by our perceptions. But we know it requires perception. As it requires perception, there has to be an objective perception who maintains that value.
How do we see it? We can see that we aren't made of some sort of unique value that is totally different then a value in another being, like one human is of totally different type x value and another human being is of y value, and x and y have nothing really in common. There is something binding us. There is something in all this. That something, in the words of Imam Ali, is expressed:
"He is in all things without being merged in them neither separate from them"
The different hues of value, the different forms, the different relationships established through it, are all manifestations of a greater value, a link to something greater, an absolute source and basis, an eternal reality.
As objective value cannot be arbitrary, it follows it's eternal and not something God can create out of nothing. Rather he creates through the truth of vision of himself for witnesses all things in himself.
Naturally we can all see this. That for example, there is something extra special about love. When we value a person to the degree we love them, we are bonding with "value" and valuing in a special way, that transcends and points to something special.
These signs of value, from honor, to courage, to compassion, to affection, are all signs of something greater. Something that these things are emerging from, but are depending to manifest.
That in thing lives inside of us "he is all things..."but he isn't merged into us neither is he separate from us.
The signs point in a way, in which they link to perfection, to one essence, that unites them all in a single absolute reality. They point to transcendence that doesn't lack a single possible existence or praise or beauty or glory or greatness or anything to be valued. The Ultimate Value by which all value emerges from.
This is one of the reflections of Quran "Or are they created from nothing...", contrary to what people might think, this verse is clearly not saying that anyone believes nothing existed and then creation emerged from that. Some humans believe that universe was eternal, however this verse is addressing the polytheists, do they think their essence is created from nothing, their souls are just created by God from nothing. Rather, he created it from water of his own light, his own value, and created through his name/face/light.
Now this explanation of the name of God/face of God the true reality of the human being, how can we know it to be true? This takes sincere reflection upon which we realize that value is not something we simply make up or biological brain assigns and maintains.
Aside from this is how our positive or negative actions play a role in our value. As said before, we don't simply decide we are the best people on earth, and hence become the best person on earth.
There is a value to who we are. When do actions, we inherit it. Our value is actually increased or decreased. We don't decide the degree of that measurement. Sure we may think of ourselves at that moment and have our over all judgement of ourselves, but we all realize if Hitler thinks he is righteous it doesn't make him what he values of himself automatically the true value of himself. His actions degrade him, they put on the negative scale, in - side of zero, not on the positive.
There is something making us inherit our actions, a judge that perceives who we are, because this qualitive type measurement can only be maintained by quality type perception.
It's not like a rock, it has weight, but it doesn't matter if we measure it or not, this is qualitive, in which it depends on perception of who we are and maintaining that and making us inherit our actions.
And so these type of reminders, that we do believe that there is some sort living record to who we are, that it forms the true nature of value of ourselves, even if we underestimate or overestimate ourselves, there is an objective value.
We know these to be true, and would not be able to subjectively value ourselves without belief there is an objective value.
We see these signs in ourselves and in the horizons, pointing to something Greater. Something in which is the source of all it and unites all possible levels of value.
The only way to measure it is to gain vision from the vision of the Creator, the closer it is to the vision of the absolute, the closer it is to making right judgement.
However we all been given a degree of that judgement or would not be able to condemn the likes of Saddam or praise the likes of Mandela.
When we do good acts we are in a state, there is beauty to it if good, we inherit that beauty. The truth is there infinite beauties, but there is beauty that unites all beauty, and there is souls that are upon that united beauty. It's they who manifest God the most, reminding us of God's unity thereby. But we can never grasp their value in that way God values them, because only God can see himself.
Imam Ja`far as-Sadiq (as) said: "Surely, we have revealed it on the Night of value." (97:1) The night is Fatima al-Zahra, and the Value is God. Whoever recognizes Fatima in her rightful manner will have comprehended the Night of Value. She was named Fatima because the Creation has been prevented (fatamu) from recognizing her [fully]."
KWED
Scratching head, scratching knee
The Quran says...
"Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and commit fasad is to be killed, crucified, or either to have one of their hands and feet cut from the opposite side or to be sent into exile."
So, let's break that down. It states that being tortured to death is a fitting punishment for two things.
1. Fighting against god and his messenger.
2. Committing fasad.
Let's look at the first one. God does not exist in any physical form. It is not possible to physically wage war against him. Therefore the Quran must be referring to the idea of him, his message. This is confirmed in Ibn Kathir's tafsir where he explains... "`Wage war' mentioned here means, oppose and contradict, and it includes disbelief".
So according to one of Islam's most renowned and respected classical scholars, being tortured to death is an appropriate punishment for the kind of arguments I post on this forum.
Now point 2, fasad. Again we can defer to the expertise of Ibn Kathir. He explains that it refers to "disbelief and acts of disobedience". So again, the offences covered in the Quran include what I am doing here.
So we can see that not only is being tortured to death a punishment for killing and other acts of violence, it is also for matters of belief and other harmless acts.
Note: this is not my opinion but rather the opinion of one of Islam's finest classical scholars, contained in one of the most widely-used tafsir in the Muslim world.
KWED
Scratching head, scratching knee
Surely you can see the irony in this argument.
KWED
Scratching head, scratching knee
Ah, so "the soul" is merely a term for our consciousness, basically the electro-chemical activity in the brain.
So the "soul" is not independent of the physical brain?
What's the irony?
KWED
Scratching head, scratching knee
So if someone who eats bacon becomes like a pig, is someone who eats poultry a bit of a chicken, and a person who eats lamb is like a sheep?A person who eats bacon might have an obscured soul.
They become like a pig, and live for their next "fix" of bacon.
You need to lighten up.
KWED
Scratching head, scratching knee
Saying that something seems objective to you.