Ask About Islam

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Muhammad Ali (former heavyweight boxer) asserted that Islam is a peaceful religion (not wanting to be punched out, I let that stand). 911 tarnished the reputation of Islamics a bit more. It is odd that American Protestants now seek to join Islam.

The US was attacked because of propaganda.

Many Islamics have propaganda against Israel. I wonder what effect this propaganda will have on Middle Eastern terrorism?

To be fair, the US hands out propaganda against us on silver platters.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

The mercy is in that he tried to rescue people from hell in this world and sent them Messengers warning them, but in hell it's not about mercy, but about punishment and vengeance from God.

Personally I expect God to be more mature than me.

 

[Link]

Personally I expect God to be more mature than me.

Justice is very mature. It's immature to think we are unaccountable to God.

 

[ppp]

Personally I expect God to be more mature than me.

Yep. I would not expect a god to have a lower standard of morality than I do.

 

[Link]

Yep. I would not expect a god to have a lower standard of morality than I do.

And why do you think your standard of morality is correct in this regard?

 

[ppp]

And why do you think your standard of morality is correct in this regard?

It's not about what my standards are. It's about what morality is. Morality is the capacity of members of a social species in the recognize each other as being like oneself and to act in ways of mutual benefit. Morality is measured by fairness, empathy, reciprocity, and cooperation. And cooperation. If you are acting within all those metrics, then you are acting morally.. If you're not acting along those lines, then you are acting either amorally or immorally. The gods' behaviors and standards of behavior in the sacred texts of most religions do not fall completely within those moral metrics.

 

[muhammad_isa]

It's not about what my standards are. It's about what morality is. Morality is the capacity of members of a social species in the recognize each other as being like oneself and to act in ways of mutual benefit. Morality is measured by fairness, empathy, reciprocity, and cooperation. And cooperation. If you are acting within all those metrics, then you are acting morally.. If you're not acting along those lines, then you are acting either amorally or immorally. The gods' behaviors and standards of behavior in the sacred texts of most religions do not fall completely within those moral metrics.

You imply that morality is fixed according to your own perception of it.
Don't you find it strange that nations differ as to what they consider what is moral and what is not?
Similarly, such ideas have changed over time as well.

In other words, your summary of morality is incomplete .. manmade .. and deeply flawed.

 

[RAYYAN]

What reason do I have to believe that you see, or have the capability to see the existence of any gods?

For me, I can't believe that the whole thing started without a creator
When I see our universe, how great and complicated the human body is, see galaxies, ......etc.
I can't believe that the whole thing started with a single-celled life.
While I believe in the big bang, I am firm that there is God that caused it

 

[Link]

For me, I can't believe that the whole thing started without a creator
When I see our universe, how great and complicated the human body is, see galaxies, ......etc.
I can't believe that the whole thing started with a single-celled life.
While I believe in the big bang, I am firm that there is God that caused it

I don't believe in the big bang, because to me, the universe is like a watch, you have to various parts in place at the same time in equilibrium. Or no life, no planets. Everything it's in precise location, and this allowed 4 regions in the universe to have planets that can support life. All other planets cannot and solar systems cannot. But if things were out of place just by a bit, no life possible on earth. This is one reason I know physical aliens are impossible. They would be so far, never gonna make it here.

Of course, I also believe life is irreducible complex in a similar way. Dna is irreducible complex in itself. It's giant library code that has to make sense. It can change, but can't come from nothing to that. Sorry, impossible.

 

[ppp]

You imply that morality is fixed according to your own perception of it.

I did not. That is something that you incorrectly inferred. What I am saying is that empathy, equity, cooperation and reciprocity are the metrics of morality.

Don't you find it strange that nations differ as to what they consider what is moral and what is not?
Similarly, such ideas have changed over time as well.

No. I don't find it strange. That is exactly what I would expect. I would expect that not only different nations, but that sub-cultures, and individuals within a nation to have competing ideas of what fairness is. And I would expect there to be a constant negotiation and renegotiation as those ideas are constantly refined. Sometimes poorly, and sometimes to the better. Nations or sub-cultures that cannot reach some level of equilibrium in one of those inevitable renegotiations will collapse.

So-called "morality" that is imposed from some external being is meaningless noise.

 

[ppp]

What reason do I have to believe that you see, or have the capability to see the existence of any gods?

For me, I can't believe that the whole thing started without a creator
When I see our universe, how great and complicated the human body is, see galaxies, ......etc.
I can't believe that the whole thing started with a single-celled life.
While I believe in the big bang, I am firm that there is God that caused it

Not a one of those statements even comes close to being an attempt to answer my question.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..I would expect that not only different nations, but that sub-cultures, and individuals within a nation to have competing ideas of what fairness is.
...
So-called "morality" that is imposed from some external being is meaningless noise.

Competing ideas? .. morality is not about man's enterprise.
Mankind ignores G-d's superiority at their own peril.

 

[ppp]

Competing ideas? .. morality is not about man's enterprise.

Morality is exactly about the enterprise of humans.

Mankind ignores G-d's superiority at their own peril.

See. You are nothing but threats. This is nothing of morality in your words.

 

[muhammad_isa]

See. You are nothing but threats. This is nothing of morality in your words.

Not at all.
G-d teaches us how to behave, due to His Wisdom.

If mankind ignore it, thinking they know better, they will come to regret it.
..just like a child who ignores his concerned parent will regret it.
Not because the parent is going to thrash their child. No.
..because the parent has had experience and knows the result of what the child is doing will hurt him.

 

[KWED]

Don't you find it strange that nations differ as to what they consider what is moral and what is not?
Similarly, such ideas have changed over time as well.

So you agree that morality is not objective and fixed. It is dependent on a variety of factors, including time and place.
You merely choose to adopt the moral system of 7th century Arabia. You could easily follow 14th century Meso-American or 17th century Portuguese morality.

 

[KWED]

For me, I can't believe that the whole thing started without a creator
When I see our universe, how great and complicated the human body is, see galaxies, ......etc.
I can't believe that the whole thing started with a single-celled life.
While I believe in the big bang, I am firm that there is God that caused it

This is simply the "argument from personal incredulity". However, just because the child doesn't understand how their iPad works, doesn't mean it must therefore be magic.

 

[ppp]

G-d teaches us how to behave, due to His Wisdom.

I haven't seen a god do anything. I have not seen a god at all. What I see is a bunch of humans making claims about gods. Humans, such as yourself, who are utterly unable to demonstrate that they know, or have the capability of knowing what they claim to know.

Many of those humans are interested in the well-being of their fellow humans, and while I do not agree with their reasoning, I salute their goals and their humanity. Other humans, such as yourself, merely speak of domination and threats; whose rhetoric can be summed up as, Get in line. Know your place. Or you are gonna buuuuuuurn. For those people all I have is opprobrium.

 

[KWED]

Competing ideas? .. morality is not about man's enterprise.

"Morality" is a human construct. We determine it and impose it. It is essentially a human enterprise.

Mankind ignores G-d's superiority at their own peril.

You are ignoring almost as many gods as I am.
"When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.”

 

[KWED]

G-d teaches us how to behave, due to His Wisdom.

And he taught you to believe that rape is sometimes ok.
How wise!

If mankind ignore it, thinking they know better, they will come to regret it.
..just like a child who ignores his concerned parent will regret it.

Parents who torture their children are vilified and prosecuted, not worshiped.

..because the parent has had experience and knows the result of what the child is doing will hurt him.

A parent does not deliberately mislead their child into doing something harmful.

Also, a parent is known to and acknowledged by the child and they do everything they can to help them. A parent does not hide from its children and leave cryptic, unintelligible notes that are easily missed.

These parent/child analogies are fun. I could do this all night!

 

[Sheldon]

Sheldon said: ↑
I don't think you know what circular logic means, or the logical inference of someone using it.

I think what the bible and quran says is true.

Some people think the world is flat, so what?

Not just true because they say it is true.
It is true because of how they say it is true.

That's still an unevidenced assertions, and seems like you have moved from circular reasoning, to a special pleading fallacy.