Ask About Islam

[Link]

Islam was before Mohammad (s), before Musa (a), I don't see your point with that.

 

[MyM]

Well that is all well enough for those who believe in and practice Islam, but as you might have noticed, many Western nations, especially European ones, have tended to become less religious over the last several decades - apart from immigration to alter such - and they seem to cherish the rights and freedoms that have taken so long to achieve - with many still to achieve.

You can't alter the fact that if people don't accept religious beliefs and especially don't share any religious beliefs that don't view males and females as essentially equals in most circumstances then they will not listen. This isn't to say that males and females are the same, just that there should be adequate reasons for any differences, and religions telling us that God made men this way and women this other way is not sufficient - for those who prefer more authoritative sources of knowledge that is.

This is how I see such anyway and the trends seem to indicate this too.

In your view, you can't blame them for thinking this way, but Allah does state the truth. Every person who hears about Islam and denies it once it has reached them, they will be called to account for it.

I understand what women have strived for. You understand what women and the past centuries have stood for. But to keep God out of the equation, that system will never succeed. Man made laws never work out and to place them over their Creator's laws and commandments, we all know from the religious circumstances in the past-what has happened.

“…and rely upon Allah. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs”
an-Nisa’ 4:81

 

[Augustus]

We know what happened. You don't have to try and explain through non authenticated resources that do not coincide with what Allah and His Messenger has brought. His companions were alive during his time as Messenger, they are called the Sahaba, then after that the tabi'een...they relayed authenticated ahadith which are still present today. There are scholars and people of ahadith...those who explain the Quran and the ahadith.

That depends on the methodological approach you take to the issue.

If you accept Islamic doctrines then you accept there was a degree of divine intervention in the process and you had a generation or two of uniquely superior humans to guide the process. The accurate preservation of tradition is something guaranteed by God.

From this perspective it is eminently plausible.

If you start from a secular perspective then you don't believe there can be a generation of uniquely superior humans, and you don't view Divine Providence as taking a role in preserving traditions. Then you would look at what the evidence shows about how ideas evolved during the first couple of centuries AH and how orthodoxy was created over this time.

From this perspective, that 9th C Sunnism authentically represents 7th C Islam is very debatable.

People have to make up their own mind as to which perspective they want to start from.

 

[Link]

The accurate preservation of tradition is something guaranteed by God.

This is a lazy approach. Jews can argue same and say why does Islam say they go wrong. The same reasons Quran shows Jews and Christians went wrong, shows Sunni and Shiites have also gone wrong.

Musa and Isa being true, is irrelevant, for this. Same with Mohammad to the Mahdi, being truth, it's irrelevant, to Islam being correct. It's necessary for Islam to be correct that Mohammad (s) be a Prophet, but it doesn't mean Islam is correct if Mohammad (s) is a Prophet.

 

[Mock Turtle]

In your view, you can't blame them for thinking this way, but Allah does state the truth. Every person who hears about Islam and denies it once it has reached them, they will be called to account for it.

I understand what women have strived for. You understand what women and the past centuries have stood for. But to keep God out of the equation, that system will never succeed. Man made laws never work out and to place them over their Creator's laws and commandments, we all know from the religious circumstances in the past-what has happened.

“…and rely upon Allah. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs”
an-Nisa’ 4:81

Well we will have to leave it there.

 

[MyM]

This is according to both Sunni and Shiite history. It's conjecture to say Tabieen followed companions, when they killed them, put them in jail and took majority as slaves per commands of Yazid.

This is according to both Sunni and Shiite history. It's conjecture to say Tabieen followed companions, when they killed them, put them in jail and took majority as slaves per commands of Yazid.

To generalize the Tabieen are all wrongdoers is wrong. To call out the companions and the tabieen as hurtful sinful people is wrong as well. During this time, wrong things did occur. Situations happened and in that course, the grandson of Mohammad pbuh was martyred. We do not make the entire tabieen to be horrible people. People make mistakes and things happen. How people can degrade the family of Mohammad pbuh and his followers and be upset over something that was already to be ordained and has come to past. It's like saying to Allah swt that you are not pleased with the results.

 

[Link]

To generalize the Tabieen are all wrongdoers is wrong. To call out the companions and the tabieen as hurtful sinful people is wrong as well. During this time, wrong things did occur. Situations happened and in that course, the grandson of Mohammad pbuh was martyred. We do not make the entire tabieen to be horrible people. People make mistakes and things happen. How people can degrade the family of Mohammad pbuh and his followers and be upset over something that was already to be ordained and has come to past. It's like saying to Allah swt that you are not pleased with the results.

Well the companions were taken as slaves by "Tabieen". So you keep joining them as if one force, but majority of people didn't stop them. Of course, there was good Tabieen and bad Tabieen, I'm talking about majority of that generation, not all.

As for Sahaba, there is two ways. As for original followers of Mohammad (s) before victory, they are minority compared to majority who came to Islam only after being defeated in battle.

The majority of "Sahaba" from the concept of all generation of Mohammad (s), Quran says to them, "don't say we believe, and belief is yet to come to your heart, but say you've submitted..." and there is a lot of condemnation of a lot of people in that generation.

There is many hypocrites and per Quran they didn't understand God's laws and limits at all.

So you mix all this up. Majority of companions are people who fought Mohammad (s) most of his life and opposed him. God accept the repentance of the ones who kept true to God and his covenant, but not all stayed true.

If you are defining Sahaba as original followers before victory, then know majority of these were fought by the others after Mohammad (s) and there is a reason Imam Hassan (a) did a treaty - because they were outnumbered.

And after Hussain (a) was killed, there were uprisings by companions (original followers) of who was left, and they were taken prisoners by the so called Tabieen, and as slaves, and a lot were killed too.

 

[Link]

And is not just being upset about the past, but relevance to guidance, Quran reminds Jews of their past generations they are linked to, saying you can't trust generations to generations following, you have to cut off the link. Even reminds them of the golden cow, saying, even your first generation was not stable. Of course, those people have what they earned, but Jews are being reminded of these past generations showing they should severe the link.

The same is true of Muslims and Islam by same reasoning. They didn't support the proper leaders and were ruled by Tyrants, how can they claim to the world, they've maintained the Sunnah? They can't, they lie if they do claim it and will be cursed by God for attributing him things without knowledge and certainty.

 

[MyM]

This is a lazy approach. Jews can argue same and say why does Islam say they go wrong. The same reasons Quran shows Jews and Christians went wrong, shows Sunni and Shiites have also gone wrong.

Musa and Isa being true, is irrelevant, for this. Same with Mohammad to the Mahdi, being truth, it's irrelevant, to Islam being correct. It's necessary for Islam to be correct that Mohammad (s) be a Prophet, but it doesn't mean Islam is correct if Mohammad (s) is a Prophet.

Seriously? You blame God now that prophets are not teaching what Allah wants? Think how Allah has sent down his messages to the Messengers for them to deliver HIS MESSAGE. Do you not think that Allah can do that correctly? You are literally saying God's prophets are not teaching God's message the ones He sends. This is a humiliation to Allah. For He is the All-knowing, All-wise.

“It is not for a believer, man or woman, when Allah and His Messenger have decreed a matter that they should have any option in their decision. And whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he has indeed strayed in to a plain error”
al-Ahzaab 33:36.

 

[viole]

As for Mohammad pbuh marrying Aisha, he did not consummate the MARRIAGE until she was mature enough. When a women reaches puberty, she is allowed to Marry. Even back during the days of Kings and Queens the same thing happened and no one thought any different.

She was the daughter of Mohammad's best friend Abu Bakr. He protected her, watched over her, and he is the best of those who are good to their wives. If you look into the matter in depths, most of the ahadith about her and her situation are FROM HER and she was not forced, coerced or made to enter into it. If she was ok, her pious family agreed and to be with one of the best human beings mankind has had to experience, then who are you and anyone else to say otherwise. She stayed with him until his passing. You may continue to not see this as the best outcome to your liking, but you do not know more than Allah and his Messenger.

Oh, how very thoughtful. And I guess whether that little girl would find, 10 years later, that old man sexually attractive is probably not important. For you do not abuse girls, right? And she must therefore have found old Mohammed look like Tom Cruise, correct?

So, would you allow your eight years old daughter to marry an old guy if he promises to not touch her until she is 18?

I have to ask you this. Why do you advertise for a religion whose main prophet is either a medieval misogynistic person, with no more added value than the rest at that time (best case), or just a sexual pervert into little girls (worst case)?

If I were you, believing what you believe, I would keep my faith very secret.

Ciao

- viole

 

[MyM]

And is not just being upset about the past, but relevance to guidance, Quran reminds Jews of their past generations they are linked to, saying you can't trust generations to generations following, you have to cut off the link. Even reminds them of the golden cow, saying, even your first generation was not stable. Of course, those people have what they earned, but Jews are being reminded of these past generations showing they should severe the link.

The same is true of Muslims and Islam by same reasoning. They didn't support the proper leaders and were ruled by Tyrants, how can they claim to the world, they've maintained the Sunnah? They can't, they lie if they do claim it and will be cursed by God for attributing him things without knowledge and certainty.

This is your history again, your belief from your mullahs. This is not substantiated among Allah swt and Mohammad pbuh.

 

[MyM]

Well the companions were taken as slaves by "Tabieen". So you keep joining them as if one force, but majority of people didn't stop them. Of course, there was good Tabieen and bad Tabieen, I'm talking about majority of that generation, not all.

As for Sahaba, there is two ways. As for original followers of Mohammad (s) before victory, they are minority compared to majority who came to Islam only after being defeated in battle.

The majority of "Sahaba" from the concept of all generation of Mohammad (s), Quran says to them, "don't say we believe, and belief is yet to come to your heart, but say you've submitted..." and there is a lot of condemnation of a lot of people in that generation.

There is many hypocrites and per Quran they didn't understand God's laws and limits at all.

So you mix all this up. Majority of companions are people who fought Mohammad (s) most of his life and opposed him. God accept the repentance of the ones who kept true to God and his covenant, but not all stayed true.

Again, this is YOUR belief and YOUR explanation. This is not substantiated by the Quran and Sunnah.

If you are defining Sahaba as original followers before victory, then know majority of these were fought by the others after Mohammad (s) and there is a reason Imam Hassan (a) did a treaty - because they were outnumbered.

And after Hussain (a) was killed, there were uprisings by companions (original followers) of who was left, and they were taken prisoners by the so called Tabieen, and as slaves, and a lot were killed too.

 

[MyM]

That depends on the methodological approach you take to the issue.

If you accept Islamic doctrines then you accept there was a degree of divine intervention in the process and you had a generation or two of uniquely superior humans to guide the process. The accurate preservation of tradition is something guaranteed by God.

From this perspective it is eminently plausible.

If you start from a secular perspective then you don't believe there can be a generation of uniquely superior humans, and you don't view Divine Providence as taking a role in preserving traditions. Then you would look at what the evidence shows about how ideas evolved during the first couple of centuries AH and how orthodoxy was created over this time.

From this perspective, that 9th C Sunnism authentically represents 7th C Islam is very debatable.

People have to make up their own mind as to which perspective they want to start from.

What represents Islam speaks for itself and that is the Quran and the Sunnah. They go hand in hand. Quran words from Allah swt, the Sunnah are sayings and teachings from Mohammad pbuh. For a messenger of God is given revelation and teachings from Allah. This is the last message to mankind and it has been preserved and protected.



All one has to do is learn. Start with "Allah knows more than you do and start learning".

 

[MyM]

Oh, how very thoughtful. And I guess whether that little girl would find, 10 years later, that old man sexually attractive is probably not important. For you do not abuse girls, right? And she must therefore have found old Mohammed look like Tom Cruise, correct?

So, would you allow your eight years old daughter to marry an old guy if he promises to not touch her until she is 18?

I have to ask you this. Why do you advertise for a religion whose main prophet is either a medieval misogynistic person, with no more added value than the rest at that time (best case), or just a sexual pervert into little girls (worst case)?

If I were you, believing what you believe, I would keep my faith very secret.

Ciao

- viole

Again, nice try. Times have changed. Back then it was the norm.

If Aisha were alive today, you could ask her that. She would then give you her perspective. She lived with Mohammad pbuh and she never once complained like you are making it sound. She grew up and was considered one of the most beloved by Mohammad and the ummah(the muslim community). She recorded many ahadith that are sound and those hadiths mainly that talk about her, she quoted them.
It isn't upon us to decide if she was happy or not. In fact she was according to her. Who are you to decide what was meant to be. It was decreed. It happened and that's that.
Nowadays, you have girls walking the streets, girls getting raped, girls being molested, girls having incest, girls who get pregnant, girls sexually active, etc. But yet, when you have a marriage of decency, in wedlock, happily married and where both equally loved and trusted each other, to you, it is a horrible thing.
Times have changed however, and the men, women AND CHILDREN are in no way compared to Mohammad pbuh and never will be. The decency just doesn't exist as it did for Aisha.

And Allah knows best.

 

[Ashoka]

Again, nice try. Times have changed. Back then it was the norm.

That does not make it right. It was still wrong. It doesn't matter if it was the "way things were." Wrong is wrong.

If Aisha were alive today, you could ask her that. She would then give you her perspective.

You cannot speak for a child. She never once stated that she wanted to leave or tried to leave, because she was probably scared to death that she would be killed. Aisha was a victim. Her perspective? Like it would have meant anything in that time or that part of the world. She was young, and a woman to boot. She had no say in it.

 

[Link]

This is your history again, your belief from your mullahs. This is not substantiated among Allah swt and Mohammad pbuh.

Dude, you are like an ostrich putting his head in the ground. You have no ground to tell other humans to come to the truth when you don't care for it.

 

[MyM]

That does not make it right. It was still wrong. It doesn't matter if it was the "way things were." Wrong is wrong.



You cannot speak for a child. She never once stated that she wanted to leave or tried to leave, because she was probably scared to death that she would be killed. Aisha was a victim. Her perspective? Like it would have meant anything in that time or that part of the world. She was young, and a woman to boot. She had no say in it.

That is what you say. She as an adult, all the time growing up, she never once claimed to be the victim. In her sayings, she praised her life. Aisha is considered to be the "Mother of the Believers". She was a remarkable woman and known for over 2000 ahadith. To say what YOU think about her is irrelevant especially if she herself as an adult claimed just the opposite. Who are you to say bad things about her and Mohammad pbuh. You will only see what you want.

“Say: ‘O you mankind! Now truth (i.e. the Quran and the Prophet Muhammad), has come to you from your Lord. So whosoever receives guidance, he does so for the good of his own self; and whosoever goes astray, he does so to his own loss; and I am not (set) over you as a Wakeel (disposer of affairs to oblige you for guidance).’”
Yoonus 10:108

 

[Ashoka]

She as an adult, all the time growing up, she never once claimed to be the victim.

Again, how could she? She had no voice of her own. If she had spoken up, she would have been ignored, maybe killed.

Who are you to say bad things about her and Mohammad pbuh. You will only see what you want.

Someone who cares about the safety and wellbeing of children.

 

[MyM]

Again, how could she? She had no voice of her own. If she had spoken up, she would have been ignored, maybe killed.



Someone who cares about the safety and wellbeing of children.

Again, you are thinking on how you want and on your terms. Quit belitting. Mohammad pbuh was one of the most influential people of all times...why? Jesus was number 3! (Imagine what Christians think as their God being on that list at number 3). So you really think that a man of that caliber would hurt the innocent?

Again, you should not degrade one of most beloved women in Islam.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Again, you are thinking on how you want and on your terms. Quit belitting. Mohammad pbuh was one of the most influential people of all times was Mohammad pbuh...why? Jesus was number 3! (Imagine what Christians think as their God being on that list at number 3). So you really think that a man of that caliber would hurt the innocent?

Again, you should not degrade one of most beloved women in Islam.

Many of those you discuss with here on RF are not Muslims, they will have a different view and understanding than you or many other Muslims has.

No need to become upset because others may see truth different than you do.