Ask About Islam

[KWED]

It is an exaggeration to imagine that the flood covered the whole globe.

So you believe it was only a local flood. The kind that happened regularly in the region and have been recorded through history.

When the flood occurred, it wouldn't be even known that the world was round.

The flood myth does not require a round earth. In fact, for the scientifically illiterate it makes more sense if the world is flat. You can fill a flat tray with water but how would you cover a melon in a layer of water?

 

[KWED]

You aren't asking to understand. I was sincere when I opened this thread for anyone who wants to learn about Islam. For those who ask on account NOT TO LEARN...which is mainly your objective-to criticize, then it is a losing battle for you and for the thread. Athiests like to try and dominate and take over a religious thread to show and ridicule. It has been proven on many accounts. If I don't want to answer you, I will not and you can criticize all you want.

Once again, it is you who has no interest in learning. You have repeatedly said that evidence and rational argument do not affect your belief. You are merely here to preach a literalist, conservative dogma - and we can see how badly that has gone for you.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..You have repeatedly said that evidence and rational argument do not affect your belief..

That's nonsense.
On the contrary, she is prepared to explain rationally why she believes what she believes.
One of the main reasons for belief being strong, is sure knowledge.
We are not just parrots reciting a book without any sense.

..you are free to think what you like, of course..

 

[Sheldon]

One of the main reasons for belief being strong, is sure knowledge.

There is nothing rational about being closed minded.

We are not just parrots reciting a book without any sense.

Is that why she has tried repeatedly to insist anyone posting anything that does not share her beliefs stop posting, and in a public debate forum at that? Instead simply insisting she believes what she believes, no matter what others post or say? Not unlike your own claim recently, that you would believe a Muslim over any atheist, any day of the week, a claim so obviously closed minded that it speaks for itself I think.

I wonder if you even see it some times. This then is the danger of ever believing anything is beyond critical scrutiny and doubt, or that any absolute truth exists, let alone that it has been revealed centuries ago to an illiterate middle eastern war lord, and that it trumps all further human reasoning and endeavour, which must conform to those beliefs.

If one wishes to be rational then one must adhere to the principles of logic, and not use known common logical fallacies, which both you, and she have done relentlessly. However just as importantly one must bend one's beliefs, to suit the objective evidence, not the other way around. Else we see the absurdity of denying scientific evidence as objectively well evidenced as species evolution.

 

[KWED]

That's nonsense.

She said... "you will never be able to thwart my belief in Allah".
That necessarily implies that she has already dismissed any possible argument or evidence that might show Islam to be false.
QED.

On the contrary, she is prepared to explain rationally why she believes what she believes.

"Because it says so in the Quran" is not a rational explanation for believing what the Quran says.

One of the main reasons for belief being strong, is sure knowledge.

Yet all she has demonstrated is sure belief. Many of her assertions have been shown to be factually false or logically unsound, yet she still insists that they must be true and correct.

We are not just parrots reciting a book without any sense.

Sorry, but that is pretty much what is happening. After all, you did say "I would believe a Muslim over any atheist, any day of the week".

 

[MyM]

And you are still going. You are the one name calling.
My objective is to learn, evaluating evidence IS LEARNING. This is pretty clear that you only want people who are already indoctrinated.
It is never a losing battle to review evidence. Because it demonstrates critical thinking.
I have yet to see any proof beyond apologetics that do not stand up to examination. The science claims were completely destroyed. I'm open to actual evidence. Again, it's not ridicule, it's looking at evidence. If your religion and feelings are so weak that they cannot withstand evaluating evidence then that says it all. It has been completely debunked.

If you don't want to answer, don't? I haven't criticized you, stop being so sensitive? I have criticized the evidence because it is flawed. This is the purpose of the debates? Apparently you cannot handle a simple debate because you keep freaking out and claiming ridicule? Actually you claim ridicule then you attack atheists and make accusations?
"Athiests like to try and dominate and take over a religious thread to show and ridicule."

I'm commenting on evidence and it's YOU who are judging and insulting?

You may think that people should just believe stories without evidence and then come in here and be all "please tell me how great and correct your religion is...." I prefer critical thinking.




Every manipulation tactic in the book. Now you speak for the thread. Critical thinking is never a losing battle. There are people on the thread who are interested so it isn't a loss. If looking at evidence of Islam is a loss then why can't you seem to just present evidence that cannot easily be debunked? Your personal beliefs are not evidence and are not the goal of the discussion. You can believe any story you want, all day. I'm looking at evidence for anyone who cares about what is actually true. Not just claimed to be true.

NOT NAME CALLING.

My religion is correct to me, if you want critical thinking, go ask your athiests friends to tell you

 

[WonderingWorrier]

I didn't say "That's rubbish". I said that I couldn't understand what you were trying to say.
It may indeed have beed rubbish, but the way you explained it was too nonsensical to understand.

Also, simply adding "why don't you ask questions?" to the end of an nonsensical statement doesn't make it make sense.
And asking "what are you on about?" in response to a statement that does not make sense is not a nonsensical response.

Hope this helped.

Yes that helps a lot.
I know nonsense doesnt mean rubbish. It just means it doesnt make sense to you.
But people do use it in that way (nonsense meaning rubbish).

Thank you for the clarification.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

Of course it makes sense, it was in response to a poster the making the asinine claim he would believe any Muslim over any atheist any day of the week. It was that claim that makes no sense, since being a Muslim doesn't necessarily make one more erudite on any topic than anyone else, the claim was pure bigotry, and KWED illustrated perfectly why it was nonsensical. If you were seriously ill one assumes you would seek the advice and treatment of a qualified doctor, what if only atheist doctors were available? Would you shun an atheist doctor in favour of a Muslim with no medical training whatsoever? It's hard to believe anyone would be so stupid, yet that is precisely what another poster was claiming.

I know it makes sense.
I agree with KWEDs point.

I didnt know if he was using the word nonsense to me as referring to not understanding or being rubbish. There wasnt enough information to assess the statement.

Either way I was making the comparison that both terms " thats nonsense" and "thats rubbish" have no reasoning attached to them so doesn't make any sense to the listener of why.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

Allah says in the Quran
“And surely, We have created many of the jinn and mankind for Hell. They have hearts wherewith they understand not, and they have eyes wherewith they see not, and they have ears wherewith they hear not (the truth). They are like cattle, nay even more astray; those! They are the heedless ones”
al-A’raaf 7:179

Do you listen to the Quran? Are you on the right path?

Do you know why those that go to hell are like Cattle?

and they have ears wherewith they hear not (the truth)

Or thinkest thou that most of them listen or understand? They are only like cattle;- nay, they are worse astray in Path. Quran 25:44

They are like cattle

Eat (for yourselves) and pasture your cattle: verily, in this are Signs for men endued with understanding Quran 20:54

I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts. Ecclesiastes 3:18



And We shall drive the sinners to Hell, like thirsty cattle driven down to water, Quran 19:86



Into the fire/tent/brass:

Say, "The truth is from your Lord": Let him who will believe, and let him who will, reject (it): for the wrong-doers We have prepared a Fire whose (smoke and flames), like the walls and roof of a tent, will hem them in: if they implore relief they will be granted water like melted brass, that will scald their faces, how dreadful the drink! How uncomfortable a couch to recline on! Quran 18:29


Like the tent with brass.
And thou shalt make fifty taches of brass, and put the taches into the loops, and couple the tent together, that it may be one. Exodus 26:11



Like molten brass; it will boil in their insides. Quran 44:45


Cattle is the lowest level, as brass is the lowest level.

Level1 - Level2 - Level3
Brass - Silver - Gold
Cattle - Goats - Sheep


And this is the offering which ye shall take of them; gold, and silver, and brass, Exodus 25:3


Allah judges brass, silver, and gold.
Allah judges cattle, goats, and sheep.


And as for you, O my flock, thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I judge between cattle and cattle, between the rams and the he goats. Ezekiel 34:17





And he shall take of the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it with his finger upon the mercy seat eastward; and before the mercy seat shall he sprinkle of the blood with his finger seven times. Leviticus 16:14

Let his heart be changed from man's, and let a beast's heart be given unto him; and let seven times pass over him. Daniel 4:16


For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. Hebrews 10:4

For it is written in the law of Moses, thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen? 1 Corinthians 9:9


The Ox is in the corn:

Level1 - Level2 - Level3
Cattle - Goats - Sheep
Corn - Oil - Wine

If you listen very carefully Hell doesn't sound so bad.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

Well, perhaps you need to try a different approach? Simply repeating the same thing doesn't help.

Ok. I will have a think about that and get back to you.
It is difficult to explain how to hear the words differently.

 

[MyM]

Are you trying to teach me my religion from a non Islamic viewpoint?

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Just as the corn, the oil, and the wine are not heard.

And the earth shall hear the corn, and the wine, and the oil; and they shall hear Jezreel. Hosea 2:22

This has been bugging me: corn is from North America so how does Hosea know about it?

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

How do we objectively assess the efficacy of a religion?

Let’s say that Jesus will make our world better and yet stats about crime and whatever are not statistically significantly different, then clearly Jesus didn’t work as well as advertised.

 

[KWED]

Let’s say that Jesus will make our world better and yet stats about crime and whatever are not statistically significantly different, then clearly Jesus didn’t work as well as advertised.

Or we could analyse prison populations by religion...
Er, nope. That doesn't help the apologist either.

Perhaps compare a county's religiosity to its ranking on health, welfare and security indices?
Hmm, that didn't work out too good either.

Darn it! There must be some way we can show how beneficial religion is to society.

 

[Left Coast]

This has been bugging me: corn is from North America so how does Hosea know about it?

Other translations say "grain." Corn appears to be a weird KJV mistranslation.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

Are you trying to teach me my religion from a non Islamic viewpoint?

A non Islamic viewpoint?
What do you think Islam is?

So tell me about your religion.
Do you really think unbelievers deserve to go to Hell?




Do you think all the muslims that dont understand the Quran correctly are the same as unbelievers?


As the Quran says:

Those who deny Allah and His messengers, and (those who) wish to separate Allah from His messengers, saying: "We believe in some but reject others": And (those who) wish to take a course midway,-

They are in truth (equally) unbelievers; and we have prepared for unbelievers a humiliating punishment.

Quran 4:151-152


Do you know how to accurately identify who the true messengers of Islam are?
Are you able to recognise their signs?


Apparently the true messengers all have clear signs.

Then if they reject thee, so were rejected messengers before thee, who came with Clear Signs, Books of dark prophecies, and the Book of Enlightenment. Quran 3:84


But the signs of the true messengers keep getting rejected.


They say: "Why is not a sign sent down to him from his Lord?" Say: "Allah hath certainly power to send down a sign: but most of them understand not. Quran 6:37

 

[WonderingWorrier]

This has been bugging me: corn is from North America so how does Hosea know about it?

The word corn means grain.

"Word History: Originally, the English word corn meant any rounded grain or seed whatsoever. In particular, it was used to refer to the kind of grain most often grown in a certain region. Thus in England, a cornfield is usually a field of wheat. The pretty blue cornflower is a Eurasian weed that originally plagued fields of wheat, not maize. In Scotland, on the other hand, corn can mean "oats," the grain that thrives best in Scotland's cool and damp climate. To modern North Americans, however, corn means maize—that is, the plant Zea mays and its seeds. When they first encountered Zea mays in the 16th century, the English borrowed the Spanish term for the grain, maíz, which is in turn a borrowing of Arawakan mahiz or mahís. Later, in the 17th century, another term for maize appears, Indian corn—the word Indian here meaning "native to the Americas." The American word corn in the specific meaning "maize" is simply a shortening of Indian corn"

American Heritage Dictionary Entry: corn (ahdictionary.com)

 

[WonderingWorrier]

Well, perhaps you need to try a different approach? Simply repeating the same thing doesn't help.

I've been thinking.
Your post reminded me of someone.

I didn't say "That's rubbish". I said that I couldn't understand what you were trying to say.
It may indeed have beed rubbish, but the way you explained it was too nonsensical to understand.

There was an Atheist with an open mind that seemed to be able to grasp what I was saying.
But he left the forum so unfortunately I couldnt continue the conversation with him.

His posts showed intelligence and he was well educated.



Ive found the post where he states his openmindedness and his education background to someone and I have bolded them:

You need to understand what the burden of proof is cOLTER. You're making unfalsifiable claims, providing no evidence, and continuing to engage in the fallacy of poisoning the well. I am not static. My mind can be changed but that requires sufficient evidence of any kind. Unfortunately, we have heretofore been unable to find a mechanism to test the supernatural, if we had, it would simply be referred to as natural and fact. Philosophy isn't super scientific. It's still considered an art. When you have a bachelors in philosophy you have a bachelor of arts. I find all religious people have to fall back on is philosophical hyperbole because as you stated religion cannot be proven objectively. Who's fault is that? gods? Do you want to talk about the argument from divine hiddenness? No, philosophy used to be a valuable tool for the study of the fundamental nature of knowledge, reality, and existence, especially when considered as an academic discipline. But religious people with little understanding of how to operate these mechanisms have bastardized them into nothing more than word soup. Circular reasoning that goes nowhere and polluted once great ideas with biased reasoning. As someone with a bachelors in theology, an associates in religion, an associates in philosophy, and a current student of law I've studied religions for over half my life and I have not heard anything new for a very long time. Maybe you'll be the first person in 600 years to come up with a brand new argument for the existence of god? Wouldn't that be cool. You may even win a debate with it someday.

I tried speaking to him.

I have no idea what you’re talking about. Are you trying to prove the Bible is true using the Bible or something?

Perhaps there is something in our conversation that might help you.

Yes. Thats right.
I looked at a bible as a skeptic. Gave it the best chance I could.
My conclusion is the bible is true as it says it is true. It is true according to its wordplay.
I know that is circular reasoning. But thats what it is.

The stories, prophecies, signs, and miracles told in the bible can be experienced by anyone at any time. They happen when the word connections are made in the mind of the individual.

It is very well written. The crazy stuff does actually makes sense.
As words of good and evil, truth and lies form the symbol of the Zodiac.


And it shows how to understand a lot of myths and fairy tales too.

Just because it’s circular doesn’t necessarily mean you’re wrong. It’s not the kind of evidence that would convince me but it sounds like you put a lot of time and energy figuring this stuff out. I have to say my favorite books of the Bible are 1st and 2nd Samuel 1st and 2nd kings and the chronicles I also love the story of Joseph.

It is something found all over the world. Same message.

I like the story in the bible about the philosophers stone and turning lead into gold.


As I've told @Tiberius before.

The philosophers stone is the heart of the philosopher:

Yea, they made their hearts as an adamant stone, lest they should hear the law, and the words which the Lord of hosts hath sent in his spirit by the former prophets: therefore came a great wrath from the Lord of hosts. Zechariah 7:12



The order shows highest to lowest:

Only the gold, and the silver, the brass, the iron, the tin, and the lead, Numbers 31:22


So turning Lead into Gold would be making lowest into highest.
Lead - Tin - Iron - Brass - Silver - Gold


Brass, Silver, Gold are levels of heavens, and Iron is the Earth. They are the four directions.

And thy heaven that is over thy head shall be brass, and the earth that is under thee shall be iron. Deuteronomy 28:23





Everything on Earth is Iron. So their gold and silver is rusty as the "prophecy" says:

Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days. James 5:3


Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: Matthew 6:19

But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: Matthew 6:20



But all the silver, and gold, and vessels of brass and iron, are consecrated unto the Lord: they shall come into the treasury of the Lord. Joshua 9:16

So the Earth and the heavens is the treasury.


I know its wordplay. But does it make any sense to you?

It’s really fun and interesting wordplay though. Isn’t iron the most valuable of all those metals? Isn’t the value of silver and gold just an arbitrary designation of value? During the first part of the Iron Age iron was incredibly valuable. The oldest Hebrew manuscripts including the Dead Sea scrolls date to around this time and iron was way way more valuable than gold or silver.

Yeah. I think there was a feast held by Napoleon that had the lower class with gold utensils while the elite had aluminum ones.



Do you want to know why I believe in crazy things like the existence of giants?
Because I think its the same thing.

Listen to this:


This verse explains the height of giants:

Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature? Matthew 6:27


And this one:

But the Lord said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the Lord seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the Lord looketh on the heart. 1 Samuel 16:7



Was Jesus a giant?

And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man Luke 2:52



So could giants be the measurements of a someones thought?


There is a Hadith that says Adam was 60 cubits tall. And men have been getting smaller since Adam.
Have mens thoughts been getting lower since Adam?


I hear Goliath is a giant. It is said in the bible he has an armour of Brass and a Spear.

So I think that is the level of his height according to the three levels I showed earlier. He is at the height of Brass and Spear.


Does this make any sense to you?
Could that be an explanation why scientists cant find huge skeletons?

Might be the same reason why Alchemists couldnt figure out how to turn lead into gold.
Its all about the height.

Love that verse out of Samuel. One of my favs. I’m not sure these are really unique ideas I haven’t heard before. On most other threads I visit from time to time people are outright hostile. Most of the people still on this thread are really smart and really nice. We’re always down for cool new ideas. Though I am a skeptic I’m not boring. There’s this one guy rise who just yells logical fallacy at the top of his lungs into the computer screen at everyone he talks to. He’s got like a thousand posts and 80 likes. It’s tragic.

(See part 2)

 

[WonderingWorrier]

I didn't say "That's rubbish". I said that I couldn't understand what you were trying to say.
It may indeed have beed rubbish, but the way you explained it was too nonsensical to understand.
.

Part 2

I think mythical creatures and items are also positions of the wheel.
If multiple animals fit into the same position then it is a single thing made of the different animals. It is word stacking.


Its the same thing repeated over and over in different ways. Thats why I can keep showing you different things and their connection.





Like I think it is possible to pull the sword from the stone (the philosophers stone).

The sword of Eden:

So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life. Genesis 3:24


Some might get a bow. But some will just get a spear.

Level 1 - Level 2 - Level 3
Spear - Sword - Bow
Straw - Dust - Stubble
Cattle - Goats - Sheep
Brass - Silver - Gold
Desert - Wilderness - Mount (The path where Moses went).


Cattle are spears.

Rebuke the company of spearmen, the multitude of the bulls, with the calves of the people, till every one submit himself with pieces of silver: scatter thou the people that delight in war. Psalm 68:30



The word placement turns swords to dust, Bows to stubble, and spears to straw.

Who raised up the righteous man from the east, called him to his foot, gave the nations before him, and made him rule over kings? he gave them as the dust to his sword, and as driven stubble to his bow. Isaiah 41:2




Like many verses this sentence says the same thing in different ways - good way, bad way.

They that dwell in the wilderness shall bow before him; and his enemies shall lick the dust. Psalm 72:9



Goats are swords.

And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness. Leviticus 16:22

We gat our bread with the peril of our lives because of the sword of the wilderness. Lamentations 5:9





For the Lord shall comfort Zion: he will comfort all her waste places; and he will make her wilderness like Eden, and her desert like the garden of the Lord; joy and gladness shall be found therein, thanksgiving, and the voice of melody. Isaiah 51:3

The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the Lord. Isaiah 65:25



So the serpent is in Eden (Dust)

The place of the Fig tree (Adam and Eve wore Fig leaves)

The wheel fulfills its own prophecies. Thats what i mean by they can be experienced by an individual reader at any time. They happen the moment understanding is reached.

Especially the crazy sounding stuff like this one:


And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. Revelation 6:13





I think that the prophecy is true because Figs are in the same position as Star.

Brass - Silver - Gold
Pomegranate - Fig - Apple.
Moon - Star - Sun



Maybe you have heard of Golden apples. I found there is also Silver figs, and Brass pomegranates.


And a chapiter of brass was upon it; and the height of one chapiter was five cubits, with network and pomegranates upon the chapiters round about, all of brass. The second pillar also and the pomegranates were like unto these. Jeremiah 52:22

The golden apple is part apple and part gold.

Does this make any sense to you?

I can’t tell if you’re as genius, crazy, or a crazy genius. Let’s start with the wheel. How are the different categories assigned and how are the animals assigned within them? Is there something you have online that could give me a visual representation so I can understand better? Thanks in advance for your patience.

I'm sorry I dont have a visual representation online to show you. I havent drawn it.
Would need to start with a blank Zodiac Wheel with 12 positions in four directions. The angle of the wheel would need to be so there are 3 positions in each of the four directions 3 North, 3 West, 3 East, 3 South.


This is the North part of the wheel and the animals that are there:

And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. Isaiah 11:7

And the gates of the city shall be after the names of the tribes of Israel: three gates northward; one gate of Reuben, one gate of Judah, one gate of Levi. Ezekiel 48:31


North/Straw.
Three animals:

Lion - Judah
Cattle - Reuben
Levi - Bear

Now the children of Reuben and the children of Gad had a very great multitude of cattle: and when they saw the land of Jazer, and the land of Gilead, that, behold, the place was a place for cattle; Numbers 32:1

And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. Revelation 5:5

And after a time he returned to take her, and he turned aside to see the carcase of the lion: and behold, there was a swarm of bees and honey in the carcase of the lion. Judges 14:8

And the men of the city said unto him on the seventh day before the sun went down, What is sweeter than honey? And what is stronger than a lion? and he said unto them, If ye had not plowed with my heifer, ye had not found out my riddle. Judges 14:18



But I have said unto you, Ye shall inherit their land, and I will give it unto you to possess it, a land that floweth with milk and honey: I am the LORD your God, which have seperated you from other people. Leviticus 20:24


Brass is the land of Milk and Honey.
Honey is from the lion. Milk is from the cow.

The lion and the Ox both have Straw (with the bear).

Does that make any sense to you?

I’m going to draw it and see. I’m definitely curious. Thanks for your patience with me.

(See part 3)

 

[WonderingWorrier]

I didn't say "That's rubbish". I said that I couldn't understand what you were trying to say.
It may indeed have beed rubbish, but the way you explained it was too nonsensical to understand.

Part 3

Here are some more animals and positions.

East Position / Stubble

3 Animals.
Joseph Sheep
Benjamin Wolf
Dan Horse

And on the east side four thousand and five hundred: and three gates; and one gate of Joseph, one gate of Benjamin, one gate of Dan. Ezekiel 48:32


The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpents meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD. Isaiah 65:25

Give ear, O Shepard of Israel, thou that leadest Joseph like a flock; thou that dwellest between the cherubims, shine forth. Psalm 80:1

Benjamin shall ravin as a wolf: in the morning he shall devour the prey, and at night he shall divide the spoil. Genesis 49:27

The snorting of his horses was heard from Dan: the whole land trembled at the sound of the neighing of his strong ones; for they are come, and have devoured the land, and all that is in it; the city, and those that dwell therein. Jeremiah 8:16





West position / Dust

Three animals.

Gad Leopard
Asher Goat
Naphtali Deer


And the west side four thousand and five hundred, with their three gates; one gate of Gad, one gate of Asher, one gate of Naphtali. Ezekiel 48:34

The Leopard is with the goat and the deer.

The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. Isaiah 11:6

Naphtali is a hind let loose: he giveth goodly words. Genesis 49:21

Putting Gad to Leopard and Asher to goat would require more explaining of other verses.


South Position:

And at the south side four thousand and five hundred measures: and three gates; one gate of Simeon, one gate of Issachar, one gate of Zebulun. Ezekiel 48:33

Issachar is a strong *** couching down between two burdens: Genesis 49:14

I can show some more detail:

Sheep are on the Eastern side and the goats are on the Western side of the wheel. Sheep on the right, Goats on the left.


As it says:

And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Matthew 25:33

And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes. Daniel 8:5

Three levels: Cattle - Goat - Sheep.

And as for you, O my flock, thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I judge between cattle and cattle, between the rams and the he goats. Ezekiel 34:17



Notice this verse I showed before has Gad with Reuben in the place of cattle:

Now the children of Reuben and the children of Gad had a very great multitude of cattle: and when they saw the land of Jazer, and the land of Gilead, that, behold, the place was a place for cattle; Numbers 32:1


Gad is higher than cattle.


There is talk about it:

Why abodest thou among the sheepfolds, to hear the bleatings of the flocks? For the divisions of Reuben were great searchings of heart. Judges 5:16

And of Gad he said, Blessed be he that enlargeth Gad: he dwelleth as a lion, and teareth the arm with the crown of the head. Deuteronomy 33:20

The Ethiopians:
Are ye not as children of the Ethiopians unto me, O children of Israel? saith the Lord. Have not I brought up Israel out of the land of Egypt? and the Philistines from Caphtor, and the Syrians from Kir? Amos 9:7

Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? Then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil. Jeremiah 13:23




There is no violence in the bible:

To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings. proverbs 1:6



Please listen carefully:

Ethiopia, and Libya, and Lydia, and all the mingled people, and Chub, and the men of the land that is in league, shall fall with them by the sword.

Ye Ethiopians also, ye shall be slain by my sword. Zephinaiah 2:12


The Leopard (Ethiopian) is sword.

That's part of the reasoning of why have I put Gad and the Leopard together on the wheel.


I think it is talking about separating cattle.
Like Moses separating the Sea.
And Muhammed separating the Moon.


Just like Jesus picking the corn:

And it came to pass, that he went through the corn fields on the sabbath day; and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears of corn. Mark 2:23

For it is written in the law of Moses, thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen? 1 Corinthians 9:9



Cattle - Goats - Sheep
Sea - River - Stream
Moon - Star - Sun
Corn - Oil - Wine

Same thing.

Was anything in there helpful?