astral projection is biblical

[Jollybear]

4: In order to even visit Heaven or have a glimpse of Heavenly things, this would need to be the work of God, not ourselves.

I would posit that it’s a two way streak of work. It’s God’s work, but it’s also our work. Just like Ephesians 2:8-10 says “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.” And Romans 8:13 “For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.”

Satan and the demons certainly don't even have the edge of a toenail in Heaven, though I would still posit that the aerial realm is Satan's domain, per the Scriptures. I don't believe he any longer has any foothold Hades, where the dead sojourn. He's been driven out of Heaven and made powerless in Hades, and he has never had any power in Hell (I assume you mean the place of the damned?)--that means he has only two possible areas of operation left to him: Earth, and the aerial realm.

I agree they don’t have an edge of a toenail in heaven; they can’t go there and take it over. However, if they repented, they could enter because each higher level is also a state of the soul. So if they did go higher without repentance, the light would make them run right back to the darkness. What does scripture say about this? It says in John 3:20-21 “Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.”

I suppose this leads into the next question of, which techniques? I would posit the gift of ecstasy.

I would say acstasy is a state of the soul, not a technique. The techniques for projecting out of body are a few different kinds. While I was away on break, I actually had another OBE. I used a simple technique to induce it. It’s as follows: I went to bed at about 10:00. I set my alarm for 3:00, got up, went down stars and had a cup of coffee. Came back up stars and went back to bed after staying up about 20 minutes. I stuck my finger up at the ceiling as I was lying in bed on my back. I had my eyes closed. When I would drift off to sleep, my finger would fall down on the bed, once it hit, it would jerk me back awake. Then I would lift my finger back up toward the ceiling again. Then when my finger hit the bed, it would jerk me awake again, then I would stick the finger back to the ceiling. I repeated this process for a bloody hour and a half. No it was not fun. Anyway, the last time my finger hit the bed, it did not jerk me awake, however I did enter sleep paralysis. Which means my mind or conscious awareness was fully awake and my body was fully asleep. I tried to move my body, it would not move, I tried to stick my finger back to the ceiling, it would not budge. I also felt waves of electricity flowing from my feet and over my body and up to my head, over and over, like waves. I could hear and feel this electricity. I was not alarmed by this, I knew exactly what was happening, however, it was very fascinating to say the least. Then I went to the next step of the technique, I imagined levitating out of the body, I tried to generate moving up toward the ceiling. Also I could see through my closed eye lids at this time. I could see the ceiling, it was not dream like, it was real like. It was indistinguishable from being awake, that’s how real it felt. It was very distinguishable from a dream state. It was even distinguishable from a lucid dream state mind you. However, after imagining levitating out, I projected out and floated up toward the ceiling, and then turned around and looked down at my body, after I seen it lying in bed, my conscious awareness got magnetized or sucked back into the body. Then I seen through closed eye lids once again, looking up at the ceiling. And what I saw, was a surprise, I seen my “astral body” or spirit body, like a cloak if ya will, still up at the ceiling hovering there. It was like a white mist, but had the shape of a body to it. Then my body woke up.

I would rather posit immediate prayer and rebuking the demon in the name of the Lord and with the sign of the cross--don't attempt to fight a demon. That's pride and aggression that's playing right into his hands, in turn making it stronger.

Well, sometimes, not all the time. If the motive is pride and sin is there, then fighting the demon would not work, however, if one examines themselves first, to see what aspect of their self is like this demon which is causing a gravitation, then after examination, to face the sin and then deal with it, THEN rebuke the demon, and fight it, then it will work. Just like Ephesians 6:11 says “take your stand against the devil”. When Jesus asked a demon it’s name, I believe that means examination, because a name back then meant something connected to the character. But yes, sometimes fighting it makes it stronger, but not all the time. But if it does make it stronger, then my third method which I mentioned should apply, ignore the demon and continue on with the experience, because energy follows thought and if you ignore the demon, it loses energy, because it’s feeding on your energy in that realm, so pay no attention to it and it loses energy. There is no black and white way to deal with a demon.

The other thing I'd suggest doing if this was an OBE I myself had done is, abort! Pull the eject cord! Get back to my body and get out of there! Much better safe than sorry.

Why abort though? What is “unsafe” in that situation? There have been experiences where people projected, had encounters with demons and when they did naturally come back to their body, nothing adverse happened to them. They were fine. Aborting though is running instead of taking a stand against, like Ephesians says to do. Plus, remember in our conversations last time we had, I mentioned that the body is not armor, the Lord and truth and righteousness is our armor. Demons will gravitate AWAY from truth, the Lord and righteousness.

 

[Shiranui117]

I would posit that it’s a two way streak of work. It’s God’s work, but it’s also our work. Just like Ephesians 2:8-10 says “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.” And Romans 8:13 “For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.”

This is true. Being granted the gift of ecstasy in many cases comes after a person has cultivated their relationship with God, opening themselves up to Him, praying to Him, fasting for Him, worshipping Him, and resisting evil, sin and temptation through His grace. But ultimately, it's not a quid pro quo; God bestows the gift upon whom He will. An untrained, spiritually or ascetically dis-inclined person may be granted the gift, while a monk who has spent decades living a rigorous spiritual life in cooperation with God may not receive ecstasy. There's no set formula to receive the gift; that is in God's hands. It's not like training and leveling up your Pikachu to the level where it learns Thunder. It's more like having a TM or an HM and deciding to use it on a certain Pokemon, regardless of its level.

I agree they don’t have an edge of a toenail in heaven; they can’t go there and take it over. However, if they repented, they could enter because each higher level is also a state of the soul.

The question of whether demons can repent is a fascinating one, one that could probably warrant its own topic. But, moving on.

So if they did go higher without repentance, the light would make them run right back to the darkness. What does scripture say about this? It says in John 3:20-21 . . .

Very true.

I would say acstasy is a state of the soul, not a technique.

Very true. I was using the term very loosely as part of a rhetorical mechanism, but it ended up just being a clumsy mistake on my part. Oops.

The techniques for projecting out of body are a few different kinds. While I was away on break, I actually had another OBE. I used a simple technique to induce it. It’s as follows: I went to bed at about 10:00. I set my alarm for 3:00, got up, went down stars and had a cup of coffee. Came back up stars and went back to bed after staying up about 20 minutes. I stuck my finger up at the ceiling as I was lying in bed on my back. I had my eyes closed. When I would drift off to sleep, my finger would fall down on the bed, once it hit, it would jerk me back awake. Then I would lift my finger back up toward the ceiling again. Then when my finger hit the bed, it would jerk me awake again, then I would stick the finger back to the ceiling. I repeated this process for a bloody hour and a half. No it was not fun.

Oh lawd, dat willpower, lol. I suppose OBE's aren't meant to be easy to induce.

Anyway, the last time my finger hit the bed, it did not jerk me awake, however I did enter sleep paralysis. Which means my mind or conscious awareness was fully awake and my body was fully asleep. I tried to move my body, it would not move, I tried to stick my finger back to the ceiling, it would not budge. I also felt waves of electricity flowing from my feet and over my body and up to my head, over and over, like waves. I could hear and feel this electricity. I was not alarmed by this, I knew exactly what was happening, however, it was very fascinating to say the least. Then I went to the next step of the technique, I imagined levitating out of the body, I tried to generate moving up toward the ceiling. Also I could see through my closed eye lids at this time. I could see the ceiling, it was not dream like, it was real like. It was indistinguishable from being awake, that’s how real it felt. It was very distinguishable from a dream state. It was even distinguishable from a lucid dream state mind you. However, after imagining levitating out, I projected out and floated up toward the ceiling, and then turned around and looked down at my body, after I seen it lying in bed, my conscious awareness got magnetized or sucked back into the body. Then I seen through closed eye lids once again, looking up at the ceiling. And what I saw, was a surprise, I seen my “astral body” or spirit body, like a cloak if ya will, still up at the ceiling hovering there. It was like a white mist, but had the shape of a body to it. Then my body woke up.

Interesting experience. So you basically left an after-image with your astral body?

Well, sometimes, not all the time. If the motive is pride and sin is there, then fighting the demon would not work, however, if one examines themselves first, to see what aspect of their self is like this demon which is causing a gravitation, then after examination, to face the sin and then deal with it, THEN rebuke the demon, and fight it, then it will work. Just like Ephesians 6:11 says “take your stand against the devil”.

How do you mean exactly, "fight" it? Like Jet Li or Jackie Chan? I believe the only proper way to do battle with demons is through faith, prayer and fasting. Looking more at Ephesians 6,

14 Stand therefore, having fastened on the belt of truth, and having put on the breastplate of righteousness, 15 and, as shoes for your feet, having put on the readiness given by the gospel of peace. 16 In all circumstances take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming darts of the evil one; 17 and take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God, 18 praying at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end keep alert with all perseverance, making supplication for all the saints, 19 and also for me, that words may be given to me in opening my mouth boldly to proclaim the mystery of the gospel...

I'll share a dream I had once. I was in a massive antechamber with a few other people. It was almost pitch-black, since the entire place was subterranean, or like inside a massive pyramid or catacomb. There was a demonic roar as lights appeared, and I saw a dragon's skeleton. The sleeping souls of people awoke with whimpering and terror, tied up and hanging in chains. A man who seemed to live in that place, but almost certainly a servant of whatever owned that voice, said that it would soon awaken.

The next thing I know, I'm standing in the middle of a parking lot, with a strong wind blowing. There was one solitary blue car in the middle of it. I knew I had to shelter myself from the wind; it was a strange and ominous gale. As I flatten myself against the car, I see a cloaked, dark figure off in the distance, slowly walking toward me. I don't know how I know, but I know it's a demon. Instinctively I start chanting the Trisagion, "Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal, have mercy on us!" Over and over, in English and Slavonic. As he starts coming closer, the wind suddenly cuts into my neck, leaving a pretty good gash near my arteries, almost severing them Another slash to the other side comes, but I ignore my wounds and just keep praying, making the sign of the cross and bowing on my knees. I had supreme confidence as I kept praying, that as long as I didn't give up praying, the demon couldn't do any serious harm to me. I was even smiling, despite the wind, the slash wounds and the slowly-approaching demon. Eventually, he vanishes, having been unable to shake me from prayer and my connection to God--without that, he was wholly unable to actually harm me.

When Jesus asked a demon it’s name, I believe that means examination, because a name back then meant something connected to the character. But yes, sometimes fighting it makes it stronger, but not all the time. But if it does make it stronger, then my third method which I mentioned should apply, ignore the demon and continue on with the experience, because energy follows thought and if you ignore the demon, it loses energy, because it’s feeding on your energy in that realm, so pay no attention to it and it loses energy. There is no black and white way to deal with a demon.

Aside from prayer, fasting and trust in God.

Why abort though? What is “unsafe” in that situation? There have been experiences where people projected, had encounters with demons and when they did naturally come back to their body, nothing adverse happened to them. They were fine. Aborting though is running instead of taking a stand against, like Ephesians says to do. Plus, remember in our conversations last time we had, I mentioned that the body is not armor, the Lord and truth and righteousness is our armor. Demons will gravitate AWAY from truth, the Lord and righteousness.

Whatever or whoever tempts you to any sort of sin, even if that sin is despair or a sense of hopelessness, you must cut yourself off from it/them or cast it/them away from you--or leave it/them yourself. And don't try and go in for what you're not prepared for. If you feel unprepared to be engaging in such blatant spiritual warfare, then don't.

 

[Windwalker]

There is Heaven the state, which you describe, and which will be experienced by all the blessed at the Last Judgement, and there is Heaven the place, which is the dwelling of God and the angels, that transcends our world. When I speak of Heaven in the context of a location, I mean the place, not the state. But your description of the state is absolutely correct--especially that we can already experience a taste of the state of Heaven here on earth.

The challenge is, of course, language. But language also creates limits, or releases the mind to a truth it otherwise cannot see because of the use of words. I see us saying much the same in regards to the experience of heaven, but I also see a difference of understanding. I do not see heaven as some place, out there, up there, wherever. It only appears as "out there, up there," etc, because of how we perceive ourselves. And so by using language that makes it a literal "place" we condition our minds to see it outside ourselves, and hence, will it always be!

The Kingdom of God is "not of this world", but not in terms of physical location, but of perceptual realities. It is not of this system of thought, of the way we understand our realities in terms of society, economics, human interactions, self-identification, etc. But in changing, rather opening up the eye of spirit to see, we see that Kingdom of God here, now, apparent before us. Not a mere "taste" of it, but the fullness of it, here, now, in us, in the world. "The Kingdom of God is within you". It is Truth, beyond the world systems, here, and now. To live within the Kingdom of God, to live in Heaven, is to live with God - period. Not after death, not in some other place, but this place opened and exposed in the radiance of God's ever-present Light in all things, and in ourselves.

This is not theoretical. This is a description.

 

[Jollybear]

Interesting experience. So you basically left an after-image with your astral body?

Yes, and even though at the time I was surprised to see it, because I THOUGHT that if I got sucked back into the body so would my astral form. However, it did not, so this experience taught me by direct verification that the conscious awareness is our essence, and the physical and astral or spirit body are only vehicles for our essence. The spirit or astral body is not that essence; it’s only another body that needs to generate energy to sustain itself, just like the physical body does. But the conscious awareness is the essence and those other bodies are just avenues for it to work through and express itself. Now even though I was surprised to see the astral image, I still know why I saw it. How this works is, when you actually project, you are generating and harnessing energy within you via the exercise of imagination, and because you are asleep or relaxed, the body can then USE its energy to project out of the body. That’s why one cannot project out of body when your body is moving because when you move your body you’re using energy to move it. But when your body is asleep, it’s not using enough energy, so therefore your mind and imagination and conscious awareness has ENOUGH energy to USE to generate power into your astral body, and then PROJECT the astral body OUT of the physical body. And then your conscious awareness is transferred into the vehicle of this astral body that you then infused energy into. So, when my conscious awareness seen my physical body on the bed and got sucked back in (which sucks, lol) the astral body which still had energy in it, was still up at the ceiling, as a mist of energy, but after I woke up, I theorize that the energy would have dissipated the image away. So, does this mean my astral body is not back in my physical body? No, the actual spirit of the person remains IN the body while it’s alive, thus the “silver cord” is not cut. Just an astral copy is generated with energy and that is what is projected out of body. Think of it like a copy machine. You have the original copy IN the machine and then it copies an exact replica of the image in the machine, it spits it out or projects it out. It does so, using energy. The machine is your physical body, the original copy of paper is your spirit, you doing the copying is the conscious awareness and the copying is the projection. Perhaps that analogy can help understand it.
This is why it’s hard to project out of body, because you need the conscious awareness and imagination and sleep all balanced on a razors edge to generate energy into the astral body into a projection.
Thus the strategy of the technique of waking up at 3:00 in the morning the purpose of that is because my physical body would be deeply relaxed and groggy, a perfect state to be in. The staying awake for 20 minutes would wake up the mind and getting coffee would also heighten waking up the mind and the nervous system, thus creating the balance of mind awake, body asleep state. And the finger up at the ceiling and all, that is creating further balance, training the mind to stay awake and training the body to fall asleep. Another thing that helps, which I have not tried this technique yet, I have tried the same technique a few times and it did not work additional times, which because it’s not about the technique, it’s about that razors edge balance. But, another thing that I would like to try is, fast for a day, go to sleep on a completely empty stomach, or stop eating at 12 noon, then go to sleep that following night, sleep on the back, face toward the ceiling. Also, sleep only one hour the prior night, so create a sleep deficit, then go to sleep night after, on this empty stomach, then set alarm for 3, stay up 15 or so minutes and then go back to sleep. I heard this is another good technique.
Again, the point of the fasting, is because when you eat food before bed, the body which is asleep and not using energy to move the body, IS STILL using energy to digest food, thus energy is compromised. If you have no food in your stomach to digest, then you can use that energy that would be used for digestion and use it to generate power into the astral body. The sleep deficit forces a relaxed state, then going to bed and trying to stay awake with the hand up at the ceiling, will then help force the body into paralysis (mind awake). Again, it’s all about that balance, which I don’t see anything inherently sinful or evil about this. If anything would be dangerous about this, which I can’t fathom anything be dangerous, but if I were to say something of it being dangerous, well it could be the potential of messing with your sleep cycle SOMEWHAT. But that’s practically it though. I would not recommend someone messing with their sleep cycle if there already very unhealthy in their body. But if you’re very healthy or reasonably healthy, I don’t see anything dangerous with it if it’s done sporadically.

How do you mean exactly, "fight" it? Like Jet Li or Jackie Chan? I believe the only proper way to do battle with demons is through faith, prayer and fasting.

Lol, no, I don’t mean fight the demon like jet li or Jackie chan, haha! That was funny. If one were to fight like that in the astral world, it would practically be pointless anyway, if anything it would be playing around because hitting someone else’s astral face with your astral fist, won’t do much harm to them, it would be like punching water, you get the idea. Ever see those movies of super heroes and villains? They fight like crazy, punch each other across the city, throw each other through buildings, by the time they finish fighting, the whole city is destroyed and not one mark is left on them. Well, that’s how it would be like fighting in the astral world Jackie chan style. Fighting like that in the physical world would certainly harm obviously, but the same does not apply to the astral world. The way to fight effectively in the astral world is by sucking the energy out of the other, generate more energy than the other, live by truth, righteousness, holiness and focus on the Lord.

Looking more at Ephesians 6,

14 Stand therefore, having fastened on the belt of truth, and having put on the breastplate of righteousness, 15 and, as shoes for your feet, having put on the readiness given by the gospel of peace. 16 In all circumstances take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming darts of the evil one; 17 and take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God, 18 praying at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end keep alert with all perseverance, making supplication for all the saints, 19 and also for me, that words may be given to me in opening my mouth boldly to proclaim the mystery of the gospel...

Yes, totally agree. By living truth, righteousness and in the Spirit and the Word and prayer, these things are the “light” and these “expel” the darkness and drive it away. Now of course these things have to be defined because the pharasees thought they had truth and righteousness and the Lord and they prayed, but they did not have the TRUE light.

 

[Jollybear]

I'll share a dream I had once. I was in a massive antechamber with a few other people. It was almost pitch-black, since the entire place was subterranean, or like inside a massive pyramid or catacomb. There was a demonic roar as lights appeared, and I saw a dragon's skeleton. The sleeping souls of people awoke with whimpering and terror, tied up and hanging in chains. A man who seemed to live in that place, but almost certainly a servant of whatever owned that voice, said that it would soon awaken.

The next thing I know, I'm standing in the middle of a parking lot, with a strong wind blowing. There was one solitary blue car in the middle of it. I knew I had to shelter myself from the wind; it was a strange and ominous gale. As I flatten myself against the car, I see a cloaked, dark figure off in the distance, slowly walking toward me. I don't know how I know, but I know it's a demon. Instinctively I start chanting the Trisagion, "Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal, have mercy on us!" Over and over, in English and Slavonic. As he starts coming closer, the wind suddenly cuts into my neck, leaving a pretty good gash near my arteries, almost severing them Another slash to the other side comes, but I ignore my wounds and just keep praying, making the sign of the cross and bowing on my knees. I had supreme confidence as I kept praying, that as long as I didn't give up praying, the demon couldn't do any serious harm to me. I was even smiling, despite the wind, the slash wounds and the slowly-approaching demon. Eventually, he vanishes, having been unable to shake me from prayer and my connection to God--without that, he was wholly unable to actually harm me.

This dream is interesting and I see in it some of the points that I mentioned. This demon and its subterranean place and this massive demonic roar, these are all demonic astral energy FORM projections. The demon was giving you an illusion of his power, he has no TRUE power over you (remember, the super hero and villain analogy, it could not harm you in anyway, just leave the city a mess sort of speak) however IF the demon could MAKE you BELIEVE it DID have power over you, THEN through your fear of it, it then ROBS you of your vital ENERGY, thus it weakens you and makes itself stronger. Now, subconsciously somewhere, you believed that this demon really DID have power over you and that is why you prayed because you believed God had power over him. However, your focus on God and confidence in God caused the demon to vanish away. However, I would posit that it was not the direct result of you praying and having confidence in God that caused the demon to flee, that was indirect, yes, but, the DIRECT cause of the demon fleeing was the fact of your DILIGENT RE FOCUSING OFF the demon and UNTO something else, that something else was GOD for you. And it was that RE FOCUS that caused the demon to flee and lose power or ENERGY. Remember, energy follows THOUGHT. So since you focused your thought OFF the demon, it lost energy, it could not ROB you of your energy because you would not give it your focus. Giving it your focus is like giving it your energy or letting it take your energy. And giving it your fear is like giving it or letting it have MORE energy. Then it gains power over you, but as far as the illusion of power over you, that is not it’s true power over you, that is just one of its strategies to TRY to gain real power over you through the robbing of your energy.
Let me give you an analogy of this: ever notice when someone or ourselves battle with lustful thoughts? Notice how it works? People think, well if I keep rebuking the lustful thought it will go away, but notice it never goes away? Lol, it just stays there, maybe it gets stronger. You know why? Because your still focusing on it, by praying about the lustful thought, the focus is still on the lustful thought, thus your prayer about the thought serves only to make the thought stronger without you realizing it. If you would just FOCUS on something else entirely, something interesting, the lustful thought would go away. Why? Because energy follows thought. There is a science to the soul, mind and spirit and spirit realm.
Another analogy is this: ever notice when someone makes you angry, if you keep thinking about it, it makes you more angry, because the focus is generating more energy into the emotions of anger toward the person. If you pray about it, the focus is still there. If one just would “let it go” and not focus on it and focus on something “happy” then the anger that was caused by the person that offended you, would go away.
Paul also says this thing in Philippians 4:4-8 &#8220;Rejoice in the Lord always. I will say it again: Rejoice! Let your gentleness be evident to all. The Lord is near. Do not be anxious about anything, but in every situation, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus. Finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable&#8212;if anything is excellent or praiseworthy&#8212;think about such things.&#8221;</SPAN>
Notice what this says? If it&#8217;s true, think on it, focus on it. The demon APPEARING to be more powerful then you or having power over you, is that true? No, so don&#8217;t think or focus on that. And therefore, by not believing his illusionary lie, you won&#8217;t be anxious or afraid, thus peace will guard your heart.

Whatever or whoever tempts you to any sort of sin, even if that sin is despair or a sense of hopelessness, you must cut yourself off from it/them or cast it/them away from you--or leave it/them yourself. And don't try and go in for what you're not prepared for. If you feel unprepared to be engaging in such blatant spiritual warfare, then don't.

Even though your right about this, that one should not fight if there not ready to, but still, IDEALLY one should prepare and get ready. When God took the Israelites out of Egypt, he did not lead them through the shorter road of the philistine area because they were not ready, but ideally, it would have been better to be ready. But did God still get them to experience warfare? Yes, just not right away, he was going to prepare them and get them ready. Eventually though, the readiness has to come.

 

[Shiranui117]

. . . so this experience taught me by direct verification that the conscious awareness is our essence, and the physical and astral or spirit body are only vehicles for our essence. The spirit or astral body is not that essence. . . But the conscious awareness is the essence and those other bodies are just avenues for it to work through and express itself. Now even though I was surprised to see the astral image, I still know why I saw it. . .

Interesting description. Thanks for sharing your experience.

. . .Again, it’s all about that balance, which I don’t see anything inherently sinful or evil about this. If anything would be dangerous about this, which I can’t fathom anything be dangerous, but if I were to say something of it being dangerous, well it could be the potential of messing with your sleep cycle SOMEWHAT. But that’s practically it though. I would not recommend someone messing with their sleep cycle if there already very unhealthy in their body. But if you’re very healthy or reasonably healthy, I don’t see anything dangerous with it if it’s done sporadically.

On the physical side, no. The way you put it almost sounds like a fun experiment I might try sometime. (Hey, I'm a sinner, and if this is a sin too, then that's just another drop in the ocean of sin. At least this sin would be hard to commit, unlike some others... >________>)

Lol, no, I don’t mean fight the demon like jet li or Jackie chan, haha! That was funny. . . The way to fight effectively in the astral world is by sucking the energy out of the other, generate more energy than the other, live by truth, righteousness, holiness and focus on the Lord.

Alright, just checking. I'd agree with most of this, but the "sucking energy out of a demon" bit sounds weird. Sounds like something they'd do to us, though. I wouldn't call our conscious awareness our essence, though--our essence is what makes us who/what we are. And I don't think that can be identified as any one part of us.

Yes, totally agree. By living truth, righteousness and in the Spirit and the Word and prayer, these things are the “light” and these “expel” the darkness and drive it away. . .

Agreed.

This dream is interesting and I see in it some of the points that I mentioned. This demon and its subterranean place and this massive demonic roar, these are all demonic astral energy FORM projections. The demon was giving you an illusion of his power, he has no TRUE power over you. . . however IF the demon could MAKE you BELIEVE it DID have power over you, THEN through your fear of it, it then ROBS you of your vital ENERGY, thus it weakens you and makes itself stronger. Now, subconsciously somewhere, you believed that this demon really DID have power over you and that is why you prayed because you believed God had power over him.

Alright, I follow.

However, your focus on God and confidence in God caused the demon to vanish away. However, I would posit that it was not the direct result of you praying and having confidence in God that caused the demon to flee, that was indirect, yes, but, the DIRECT cause of the demon fleeing was the fact of your DILIGENT RE FOCUSING OFF the demon and UNTO something else, that something else was GOD for you. And it was that RE FOCUS that caused the demon to flee and lose power or ENERGY. Remember, energy follows THOUGHT. So since you focused your thought OFF the demon, it lost energy, it could not ROB you of your energy because you would not give it your focus. Giving it your focus is like giving it your energy or letting it take your energy. And giving it your fear is like giving it or letting it have MORE energy. Then it gains power over you, but as far as the illusion of power over you, that is not it’s true power over you, that is just one of its strategies to TRY to gain real power over you through the robbing of your energy.

So do you believe that God had nothing to do with it, aside from being an area of focus that wasn't the demon?

Let me give you an analogy of this: ever notice when someone or ourselves battle with lustful thoughts? Notice how it works? People think, well if I keep rebuking the lustful thought it will go away, but notice it never goes away? Lol, it just stays there, maybe it gets stronger. You know why? Because your still focusing on it, by praying about the lustful thought, the focus is still on the lustful thought, thus your prayer about the thought serves only to make the thought stronger without you realizing it.

DEAR GOD DON'T REMIND ME >_____< Lol, this is one of my weaker areas...

If you would just FOCUS on something else entirely, something interesting, the lustful thought would go away. Why? Because energy follows thought. There is a science to the soul, mind and spirit and spirit realm.

Another analogy is this: ever notice when someone makes you angry, if you keep thinking about it, it makes you more angry, because the focus is generating more energy into the emotions of anger toward the person. If you pray about it, the focus is still there. If one just would “let it go” and not focus on it and focus on something “happy” then the anger that was caused by the person that offended you, would go away.

True. If I'd have the willpower to just let it go and rest in God, I'd be a whole lot better off dealing with temptations of lust. I'm great about thinking of ways of combatting temptation. Actually doing said things is another matter... :/

Even though your right about this, that one should not fight if there not ready to, but still, IDEALLY one should prepare and get ready. When God took the Israelites out of Egypt, he did not lead them through the shorter road of the philistine area because they were not ready, but ideally, it would have been better to be ready. But did God still get them to experience warfare? Yes, just not right away, he was going to prepare them and get them ready. Eventually though, the readiness has to come.

Agreed here.

Questions left to discuss:
1: If God created the spirit realm and Satan did not, why is it wrong or demonic to project the soul into the spirit realm?
2: If God designed the soul with abilities, how is a demon the one projecting the soul into the spirit realm?
3: If a demon is not projecting the soul, but it’s still wrong to project one self, why is it wrong?
4: If it’s wrong because God is not directly doing the projecting, but you are, what is wrong with that? We do many things in life that God is not directly making us do.
5: If it’s wrong because we are not supposed to know or find out things in that realm until after death, why so? Why is it wrong to know and find out things in this life?
6: If it’s wrong because demons live in that realm and they are grounded there and that grounding gives them a door opening to us, which could make them prone to have control over us, are we really suppose to run and fear demons? Demons can get us even if we don’t project, and if we run in fear, that shows demons got us in the area of fear. Why are we supposed to fear demons and not stand and fight as the bible tells us to?
7: If it’s wrong because of a lack of carefulness, and wrong motives, well, what if we are careful and have the right motives, why would it still be wrong then?
8: If God is Spirit, would not doing this get us closer to God since our very soul/spirit is projecting INTO the spirit realm?
9: By doing this, we have more control, so would that not mean demons would have LESS power to get us, since the other way, we are passive and just LET things happen one way or another?
10: If the soul has a silver cord connection to the body, so the essence of the spirit is still in the body, but the consciousness is transferred to an astral double, how then could a demon enter the body when you project? The body is not left truly empty. Plus, God’s our armor.
11: If it’s wrong because you think the soul could get lost in that realm, again, how could it, since there is a silver cord connection? Plus, when the body awakes, the soul returns to the body whether it wants to or not, so how could it possibly get lost?
12: If it’s wrong because it seeks an escape from this life and its experiences, how is it an escape since one projects for like only a few minutes a few times a week and all the rest of our experiences deal with this life? Thus time spent in the spirit realm is a negligible amount of time. Why not say dreams and sleeping is bad too and that it escapes wake life?
13: If astral projection is nothing but the body being asleep, the mind being awake and lucid, and then the consciousness projects out of body through imagination, what is wrong with all of that in and of itself?
14: If some people who are not Christians have this phenomenon happen to them spontaneously, who is doing that? Demons or God?
15: If some Christians have this happen to them spontaneously, and if that is God doing that, does that not show that God considers it not wrong?

 

[Jollybear]

Alright, just checking. I'd agree with most of this, but the "sucking energy out of a demon" bit sounds weird. Sounds like something they'd do to us, though.

Colosians 2:15 says &#8220;And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.&#8221; When Jesus disarmed the devil, what does that mean? How did he do that? Did he strip him of a sword and a shield? Or a gun? Or the ability to make load roars? Or make himself look bigger? Or shape shift into a massive monster? Or do magic with his hand and throw lightning bolts at you in the spirit realm? No, this is not what he stripped him of, Satan can still do all of these things. Even human souls can do this, it takes it&#8217;s own work to do it, but it can be done. However, here is what Jesus striped him off, his energy. That is, his POWER. Jesus is our example, we can do the same thing to Satan as Jesus did. We can STRIP him of his energy, of his power, or suck his energy, or take his energy, or in figurative sense, strip his armor or &#8220;disarm&#8221; him. How do we do it? You did it in your dream. There is three ways to disarm him. Don&#8217;t focus on him by fearing him, and don&#8217;t be like him and thirdly, focus on God.

I wouldn't call our conscious awareness our essence, though--our essence is what makes us who/what we are. And I don't think that can be identified as any one part of us.

Imagine for a moment you have no head, legs, arms, neck, torso, body, or organs, no brain, no skeleton, no astral form, you have no thoughts, no mind, but &#8220;YOU&#8221; still exist. What would the &#8220;you&#8221; be? The you would be your conscious being or awareness. That THING that is just aware, or conscious. That would be you.

So do you believe that God had nothing to do with it, aside from being an area of focus that wasn't the demon?

I think God had something to do with it, but allow me to explain more what I mean:

When God&#8217;s presence shows up, God&#8217;s presence is the spirit of truth, holiness, righteousness, purity, goodness, love, and a demon or spirit that does not have these qualities in them, they will feel convicted by this presence, they will feel exposed for the lie they live, that is the things they hide in darkness, will be exposed. So if they love the truth, the light, this presence, they will remain in the light, if they love the lie, they will run from the light. So, the demon will typically flee when God shows up because the demon trembles at God.

Now, when you focus on God, by default you&#8217;re not focusing on the demon, the lack of focus on the demon in the spirit world makes them lose energy and blocks them from taking your energy. And therefore they will go away.

So, you disarm or make a demon lose energy by exposing them, not being like them, or having God show up, which will expose them. A demon makes you lose energy, or disarms you by exposing you, that is if he makes you fear, or believe his illusion of power over you, then you believed the lie, that lie is darkness, so he exposes you, and therefore, you get weaker and he gets stronger. Basically if you fear his illusion of power over you, then you are being like them because they get afraid when they are exposed.

 

[Shiranui117]

Colosians 2:15 says “And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.” When Jesus disarmed the devil, what does that mean? How did he do that?

By dying and resurrecting. Through His death, He trampled upon Death. Through His Resurrection, he busted open the gates of Hades and freed humanity from sin and death, by giving us a way out, and reopening the doors to Paradise. He also destroyed the deceit of demons. Whatever former signs or miracles the demons were able to work that tricked humans into worshipping them as gods, the demons were rendered incapable of doing after Christ came, died and rose from the dead.

Imagine for a moment you have no head, legs, arms, neck, torso, body, or organs, no brain, no skeleton, no astral form, you have no thoughts, no mind, but “YOU” still exist. What would the “you” be? The you would be your conscious being or awareness. That THING that is just aware, or conscious. That would be you.

Your awareness is contained within your mind and your soul--your nous, your psyche, your pneuma. Even your conscious awareness is just another part of you. It may be the main body of the chariot, but even the main body is just another part.

I think God had something to do with it, but allow me to explain more what I mean:

When God’s presence shows up, God’s presence is the spirit of truth, holiness, righteousness, purity, goodness, love, and a demon or spirit that does not have these qualities in them, they will feel convicted by this presence, they will feel exposed for the lie they live, that is the things they hide in darkness, will be exposed. So if they love the truth, the light, this presence, they will remain in the light, if they love the lie, they will run from the light. So, the demon will typically flee when God shows up because the demon trembles at God.

Now, when you focus on God, by default you’re not focusing on the demon, the lack of focus on the demon in the spirit world makes them lose energy and blocks them from taking your energy. And therefore they will go away.

So, you disarm or make a demon lose energy by exposing them, not being like them, or having God show up, which will expose them. A demon makes you lose energy, or disarms you by exposing you, that is if he makes you fear, or believe his illusion of power over you, then you believed the lie, that lie is darkness, so he exposes you, and therefore, you get weaker and he gets stronger. Basically if you fear his illusion of power over you, then you are being like them because they get afraid when they are exposed.

Fair.

I think it's safe to introduce other questions into the discussion at this point.

2: If God designed the soul with abilities, how is a demon the one projecting the soul into the spirit realm?

I never argued this, so the question doesn't have much worth in the discussion.

3: If a demon is not projecting the soul, but it’s still wrong to project one self, why is it wrong?

I may be edging off saying it's wrong. But I do believe that it is irresponsible for anyone who is spiritually weak to try and attempt--you're projecting yourself into a world where demons are far more obvious. Ordinarily demons only manifest themselves before the mentally weak, or those who are growing so close to God that the demons are pulling out all the stops in attempting to cause the believer to fear and fall away from God's embrace. By stepping into a world where demons are able to "cast illusions" as you put it, and visually manifest themselves, it can be very risky for anyone who doesn't have enough fortitude or faith.

Aside from that, what exactly is the point of self-inducing an OBE? What does it offer that standard Christian spirituality doesn't? In our previous discussions, I've listed fasting, prayer, reading of Scripture, chanting of Psalms, singing hymns, receiving the Sacraments, meditation and contemplation on the Scriptures/the Fathers/a mystery of the Faith, the Jesus Prayer, repentance, and other practices as being more than sufficient in all areas of useful spiritual growth. How could OBE's contribute to a Christian's walk with Christ, when God already provides the gifts of ecstasy, vision of God and union with God?

Questions left to discuss:
4: If it’s wrong because God is not directly doing the projecting, but you are, what is wrong with that? We do many things in life that God is not directly making us do.
5: If it’s wrong because we are not supposed to know or find out things in that realm until after death, why so? Why is it wrong to know and find out things in this life?
6: If it’s wrong because demons live in that realm and they are grounded there and that grounding gives them a door opening to us, which could make them prone to have control over us, are we really suppose to run and fear demons? Demons can get us even if we don’t project, and if we run in fear, that shows demons got us in the area of fear. Why are we supposed to fear demons and not stand and fight as the bible tells us to?
7: If it’s wrong because of a lack of carefulness, and wrong motives, well, what if we are careful and have the right motives, why would it still be wrong then?
8: If God is Spirit, would not doing this get us closer to God since our very soul/spirit is projecting INTO the spirit realm?
9: By doing this, we have more control, so would that not mean demons would have LESS power to get us, since the other way, we are passive and just LET things happen one way or another?
10: If the soul has a silver cord connection to the body, so the essence of the spirit is still in the body, but the consciousness is transferred to an astral double, how then could a demon enter the body when you project? The body is not left truly empty. Plus, God’s our armor.
11: If it’s wrong because you think the soul could get lost in that realm, again, how could it, since there is a silver cord connection? Plus, when the body awakes, the soul returns to the body whether it wants to or not, so how could it possibly get lost?
12: If it’s wrong because it seeks an escape from this life and its experiences, how is it an escape since one projects for like only a few minutes a few times a week and all the rest of our experiences deal with this life? Thus time spent in the spirit realm is a negligible amount of time. Why not say dreams and sleeping is bad too and that it escapes wake life?
13: If astral projection is nothing but the body being asleep, the mind being awake and lucid, and then the consciousness projects out of body through imagination, what is wrong with all of that in and of itself?
14: If some people who are not Christians have this phenomenon happen to them spontaneously, who is doing that? Demons or God?
15: If some Christians have this happen to them spontaneously, and if that is God doing that, does that not show that God considers it not wrong?

 

[Shiranui117]

The challenge is, of course, language. But language also creates limits, or releases the mind to a truth it otherwise cannot see because of the use of words. I see us saying much the same in regards to the experience of heaven, but I also see a difference of understanding. I do not see heaven as some place, out there, up there, wherever. It only appears as "out there, up there," etc, because of how we perceive ourselves. And so by using language that makes it a literal "place" we condition our minds to see it outside ourselves, and hence, will it always be!

The Kingdom of God is "not of this world", but not in terms of physical location, but of perceptual realities. It is not of this system of thought, of the way we understand our realities in terms of society, economics, human interactions, self-identification, etc. But in changing, rather opening up the eye of spirit to see, we see that Kingdom of God here, now, apparent before us. Not a mere "taste" of it, but the fullness of it, here, now, in us, in the world. "The Kingdom of God is within you". It is Truth, beyond the world systems, here, and now. To live within the Kingdom of God, to live in Heaven, is to live with God - period. Not after death, not in some other place, but this place opened and exposed in the radiance of God's ever-present Light in all things, and in ourselves.

This is not theoretical. This is a description.

I think we're agreed. The main hang-up seems to be one of terminology. I agree with Heaven being a state, something we can live in, and I've said as much. I also believe, as per Christian cosmology, that there is also a place called Heaven, in addition to the state called Heaven.

 

[Clarity]

I want to talk to a Christian or a Jew about astral projection. Why do you think it's demonic? Why do you think God does not aprove of the practice of astral projection via meditation techniques? What is your scriptural evidence and logical argument that astral projection is wrong? Currently I am convinced it's not wrong or demonic from scripture, but am open to debate it and be convinced otherwise. And i hope i got this question in the right section of the forum, not sure. But either case, here it is.

For those who don't know, astral projection is the means of having out of body experiences through meditation and mind work.

This is why astral projection is demonic:

1--Human beings don't have the ability to travel outside their body. I've heard a lot of testimonies from those who have done it, including a former girlfriend, and I don't believe a single one of them.

2--If you find that you are capable of detaching spiritually from your physical body, it must be that you had outside assistance. (Personally, I think that's a stretch, too, but it's the only possibility.)

 

[Jollybear]

By dying and resurrecting. Through His death, He trampled upon Death. Through His Resurrection, he busted open the gates of Hades and freed humanity from sin and death, by giving us a way out, and reopening the doors to Paradise. He also destroyed the deceit of demons. Whatever former signs or miracles the demons were able to work that tricked humans into worshipping them as gods, the demons were rendered incapable of doing after Christ came, died and rose from the dead.

True Christ death and resurrection defeated Satan, disarmed him. But also, remember when Christ was in the desert for 40 days? That was a form of disarming Satan there too. Notice Satan temps him with the flesh, he don&#8217;t give in. Satan twists the scripture, Jesus puts it back in context, he tries to get him to worship him, and Jesus doesn&#8217;t do it. Then Satan leaves. And Jesus always quotes the scripture at him in all three temptations. In other words, he keeps exposing his lies, shining the light on his lies, and finally, Satan cannot handle that light, so he leaves. We can disarm him the same way. I&#8217;m not saying we can disarm him in the sense of paying for mankind&#8217;s debt of sin like Jesus did, but we can disarm him in the same example Jesus gave.


Also, even though Jesus died and rose, I still believe Satan can do miracles currently, in order to deceive; those abilities are still with him. That&#8217;s not what has been &#8220;disarmed&#8221; from him. What has been disarmed is his legal right over mankind because Jesus paid the debt. Now when we take our stand against him personally, that disarms his illusions from taking effect over us.

I never argued this, so the question doesn't have much worth in the discussion.

Very well, although some Christians actually argue that we don&#8217;t have the ability to project, it&#8217;s the devil doing it, so that&#8217;s why it was in my list. Actually, if you will notice below, Clarity just made that argument, lol. I&#8217;m going to have a hey day with responding to that point for him

I may be edging off saying it's wrong. But I do believe that it is irresponsible for anyone who is spiritually weak to try and attempt--you're projecting yourself into a world where demons are far more obvious. Ordinarily demons only manifest themselves before the mentally weak, or those who are growing so close to God that the demons are pulling out all the stops in attempting to cause the believer to fear and fall away from God's embrace. By stepping into a world where demons are able to "cast illusions" as you put it, and visually manifest themselves, it can be very risky for anyone who doesn't have enough fortitude or faith.

I agree, the individual should be spiritually mature, or ready, or know what they&#8217;re doing before projecting. However, projecting in itself can help them to mature and learn things so they can know what they&#8217;re doing. By forcing yourself to get ready, that can in a way make you ready.

Aside from that, what exactly is the point of self-inducing an OBE? What does it offer that standard Christian spirituality doesn't? In our previous discussions, I've listed fasting, prayer, reading of Scripture, chanting of Psalms, singing hymns, receiving the Sacraments, meditation and contemplation on the Scriptures/the Fathers/a mystery of the Faith, the Jesus Prayer, repentance, and other practices as being more than sufficient in all areas of useful spiritual growth. How could OBE's contribute to a Christian's walk with Christ, when God already provides the gifts of ecstasy, vision of God and union with God?

The point and what it can offer is this: it can CONFIRM the standard Christian spirituality and not just confirm, but be an avenue to verify it and not just that either, but also a means to enhance it and make it more meaningful.

This is why astral projection is demonic:

1--Human beings don't have the ability to travel outside their body. I've heard a lot of testimonies from those who have done it, including a former girlfriend, and I don't believe a single one of them.

2--If you find that you are capable of detaching spiritually from your physical body, it must be that you had outside assistance. (Personally, I think that's a stretch, too, but it's the only possibility.)

So first you say it&#8217;s demonic and then you say that you don&#8217;t even believe it happens, so which one do you believe then? Also, if you think these thousands of testimonies, including your own former girlfriend and including my two experiences, that we are all lying about it and it did not happen, then your way out in left field. You are severely wrong and don&#8217;t have a clue. If you don&#8217;t believe it can happen, just try it for yourself and you will find out by personal experience that it&#8217;s real. You don&#8217;t have to take anyone&#8217;s word for it, you don&#8217;t even have to believe it, just test it, and do the work to accomplish it, and it will happen and then when it does, then you will know were not lying. Plus, if you call me a liar, then further meaningful dialogue about it is useless. What do I have to gain by lying about it? Plus the thousands of other people that do it in the world? What about your former girlfriend, what motive does she have in lying about it?



Now if you think it is happening, but the devil is doing it, explain how he&#8217;s doing it, when in fact the people who actually practice astral projection, they are actually doing meditation work and applying complex techniques in order to induce it, and that&#8217;s how it happens. So how then is the devil doing it if they are the ones-----doing it? Explain that? Do you know anything about how it&#8217;s done also? If not, it&#8217;s silly for you to say the devil is the one doing it for that reason to.

 

[Jollybear]

Shiranui, where you be?

 

[Shiranui117]

Sorry about the wait, I'm currently dealing with some personal issues, which has been sapping most of my energy as of late.

True Christ death and resurrection defeated Satan, disarmed him. But also, remember when Christ was in the desert for 40 days? That was a form of disarming Satan there too. Notice Satan temps him with the flesh, he don&#8217;t give in. Satan twists the scripture, Jesus puts it back in context, he tries to get him to worship him, and Jesus doesn&#8217;t do it. Then Satan leaves. And Jesus always quotes the scripture at him in all three temptations. In other words, he keeps exposing his lies, shining the light on his lies, and finally, Satan cannot handle that light, so he leaves. We can disarm him the same way. I&#8217;m not saying we can disarm him in the sense of paying for mankind&#8217;s debt of sin like Jesus did, but we can disarm him in the same example Jesus gave.

Yes, agreed 100%. Give no opening. Shut him down immediately, and entertain none of his lies.

Also, even though Jesus died and rose, I still believe Satan can do miracles currently, in order to deceive; those abilities are still with him. That&#8217;s not what has been &#8220;disarmed&#8221; from him. What has been disarmed is his legal right over mankind because Jesus paid the debt. Now when we take our stand against him personally, that disarms his illusions from taking effect over us.

Well, I don't subscribe to Anselm's or John Calvin's views on the nature of the Fall or Christ's atonement, so I wouldn't say Satan ever had any legal rights over us. But we did place ourselves in slavery to him by committing sin, and coming under the dominion of death. Yet this enslavement is more akin to being taken as prisoners of war than a legal arrangement.

Very well, although some Christians actually argue that we don&#8217;t have the ability to project, it&#8217;s the devil doing it, so that&#8217;s why it was in my list. Actually, if you will notice below, Clarity just made that argument, lol. I&#8217;m going to have a hey day with responding to that point for him

LOL, have at it.

I agree, the individual should be spiritually mature, or ready, or know what they&#8217;re doing before projecting. However, projecting in itself can help them to mature and learn things so they can know what they&#8217;re doing. By forcing yourself to get ready, that can in a way make you ready.

But forcing too hard also SUCKS, and take it from me--I remember trying to condition myself for track during my sophomore year in high school by running 60 miles in 2 weeks, after hardly having ran at all for a year. It got to the point where my 2-mile warmup run consisted simply of me hobbling along in pain, due to a combination of shin splints, runner's knee and ankle problems. It doesn't help that I also have athletic asthma. Sticking my legs in near-freezing water for 7 minutes felt better than that hell. After giving up on running track, I couldn't walk up a set of stairs for three weeks without pain. I've barely been doing any running since then.

The point and what it can offer is this: it can CONFIRM the standard Christian spirituality and not just confirm, but be an avenue to verify it and not just that either, but also a means to enhance it and make it more meaningful.

How could it be enhanced or made more meaningful?

 

[Jollybear]

Sorry about the wait, I'm currently dealing with some personal issues, which has been sapping most of my energy as of late.

Yes, agreed 100%. Give no opening. Shut him down immediately, and entertain none of his lies.

Well, I don't subscribe to Anselm's or John Calvin's views on the nature of the Fall or Christ's atonement, so I wouldn't say Satan ever had any legal rights over us. But we did place ourselves in slavery to him by committing sin, and coming under the dominion of death. Yet this enslavement is more akin to being taken as prisoners of war than a legal arrangement.

LOL, have at it.

But forcing too hard also SUCKS, and take it from me--I remember trying to condition myself for track during my sophomore year in high school by running 60 miles in 2 weeks, after hardly having ran at all for a year. It got to the point where my 2-mile warmup run consisted simply of me hobbling along in pain, due to a combination of shin splints, runner's knee and ankle problems. It doesn't help that I also have athletic asthma. Sticking my legs in near-freezing water for 7 minutes felt better than that hell. After giving up on running track, I couldn't walk up a set of stairs for three weeks without pain. I've barely been doing any running since then.

How could it be enhanced or made more meaningful?

Sorry I took long too im on vacation and im doing this post from texting it on my phone. Not the most fun way of doing it.

But the way it thr christain faith would be more mraningful by having obes would be because of the experiences through the sences of sight, and hearing and touch. Thw experience of something always makes anything more meaningfull then just hearing aboyt it and believing it.

 

[Jollybear]

Sorry about the misspells. Thats what happens when I text. If im any more carefull ill take forever texting it

 

[Shiranui117]

A'ight, I hear you. Feel free to respond to this whenever you can--I'm currently writing a term paper myself, so I know how it is to have limited time.

7: If it’s wrong because of a lack of carefulness, and wrong motives, well, what if we are careful and have the right motives, why would it still be wrong then?

Now I'm becoming much more ambivalent on the subject, so if it's done with the right reasons and done with caution after the proper preparation, then I would say it's neutral--though I would still err on the side of caution and probably refrain from doing so myself until I have a strong spiritual life and relationship with God. I've heard several firsthand stories about people who practiced astral projection regularly, and then started projecting involuntarily, as if their souls were being dragged out of their bodies. They began having hallucinations as well. Once they became Christians/more serious Christians, however, this stopped completely.

8: If God is Spirit, would not doing this get us closer to God since our very soul/spirit is projecting INTO the spirit realm?

Not at all. This is assuming both 1: a rather strict dualism between physical and spiritual and 2: it fails to take into account God's omnipresence. Remember, He is in Heaven (not just the heavenly place, but also, as per Hebrew cosmology, space and the upper atmosphere), but the Heavens cannot contain Him. He is fully present in both Heaven and Earth, and closer to us than our own hearts. Rather than projecting our soul/spirit into the spirit realm, the true way to grow closer to God is through prayer.

9: By doing this, we have more control, so would that not mean demons would have LESS power to get us, since the other way, we are passive and just LET things happen one way or another?

A groundhog who stays underground has no chance of being swooped up and eaten by the eagle.

10: If the soul has a silver cord connection to the body, so the essence of the spirit is still in the body, but the consciousness is transferred to an astral double, how then could a demon enter the body when you project? The body is not left truly empty. Plus, God’s our armor.

Demons can possess us even when we're not projecting. Now project your soul out of your body into a realm where demons can manifest themselves and toy with the atmosphere and play all sorts of mind games...

11: If it’s wrong because you think the soul could get lost in that realm, again, how could it, since there is a silver cord connection? Plus, when the body awakes, the soul returns to the body whether it wants to or not, so how could it possibly get lost?

If this is true, then I suppose this would be the difference between astral projection and ecstasy. When someone is sent into a state of ecstasy by God, they're basically in a coma. You could hack off all their limbs and you would get no response whatsoever.

14: If some people who are not Christians have this phenomenon happen to them spontaneously, who is doing that? Demons or God?
15: If some Christians have this happen to them spontaneously, and if that is God doing that, does that not show that God considers it not wrong?

It depends if we're talking about astral projection or ecstasy. They're two different things.

4: If it’s wrong because God is not directly doing the projecting, but you are, what is wrong with that? We do many things in life that God is not directly making us do.
5: If it’s wrong because we are not supposed to know or find out things in that realm until after death, why so? Why is it wrong to know and find out things in this life?

12: If it’s wrong because it seeks an escape from this life and its experiences, how is it an escape since one projects for like only a few minutes a few times a week and all the rest of our experiences deal with this life? Thus time spent in the spirit realm is a negligible amount of time. Why not say dreams and sleeping is bad too and that it escapes wake life?
13: If astral projection is nothing but the body being asleep, the mind being awake and lucid, and then the consciousness projects out of body through imagination, what is wrong with all of that in and of itself?

 

[Jollybear]

Now I'm becoming much more ambivalent on the subject, so if it's done with the right reasons and done with caution after the proper preparation, then I would say it's neutral--though I would still err on the side of caution and probably refrain from doing so myself until I have a strong spiritual life and relationship with God. I've heard several firsthand stories about people who practiced astral projection regularly, and then started projecting involuntarily, as if their souls were being dragged out of their bodies. They began having hallucinations as well. Once they became Christians/more serious Christians, however, this stopped completely.

For every story of people who had negative experiences, or involuntary experiences, there are stories that are positive and not involuntary. Plus, involuntary experiences are not experiences that I would say they are being dragged from their bodies, I would say it&#8217;s more caused by them being so use to projecting, that it has strengthened a mental muscle so well, that it sometimes makes them have involuntary experiences.

Think of it like this: Suppose you exercise your muscles and your bench pressing the 85 pound dumbbells for 5 reps. you do that for a week, maybe two weeks. Then your chest and triceps get stronger, so then the third week you do the 85s you are expecting to hit 5 reps again, but you pick up the weight, fly back on the bench, and press it up and WAM, it goes up fast, it feels lighter then what you thought and then you pump out ten reps and you&#8217;re like, oh my gosh. The first rep you were voluntarily expecting it to feel the same as the prior two weeks, but it involuntarily felt lighter.

Or did you ever pick up something anytime in your life, thinking in your mind it was going to be heavy and low and behold, you pick it up with that expectation and you almost fly it through the roof because it was way lighter then you expected?

Well, this is how it would be with astral projection. The involuntary experience just means that mental ability they have been exercising through meditation got stronger and so projecting becomes easier, so much so, that it can even become involuntary. It does not mean someone is pulling them out. Now, don&#8217;t get me wrong, every case is a case by case basis and so sometimes someone may get pulled out, but I think those are not the norm. They are rare and certainly can be dealt with.

Not at all. This is assuming both 1: a rather strict dualism between physical and spiritual and 2: it fails to take into account God's omnipresence. Remember, He is in Heaven (not just the heavenly place, but also, as per Hebrew cosmology, space and the upper atmosphere), but the Heavens cannot contain Him. He is fully present in both Heaven and Earth, and closer to us than our own hearts. Rather than projecting our soul/spirit into the spirit realm, the true way to grow closer to God is through prayer.

I think true prayer will have a meditating aspect to it. I heard a quote one time it went something like this: prayer is us coming to God, meditation is having God come to us.
I agree we can experience God in the body, but since the father is spirit, we can communicate with him better in the spirit realm. If the father is spirit, it only makes logical sense. Yes, we can experience him in the body because he is omnipresent, but not to the fullest extent as in the spirit realm.

A groundhog who stays underground has no chance of being swooped up and eaten by the eagle.

I&#8217;ll work with your own analogy. I don&#8217;t know much about groundhogs, but I will assume that if they stay under ground, they will also die that way because of not getting out to get food, plus, they won&#8217;t be getting any sun, so that won&#8217;t be good for them either. So, it&#8217;s dangerous to STAY underground (not being acquainted with the soul and spirit realm and God in that realm).

Demons can possess us even when we're not projecting. Now project your soul out of your body into a realm where demons can manifest themselves and toy with the atmosphere and play all sorts of mind games...

The body is not our armor, God is the armor. We are not to put our trust in the flesh. I would go so far as to say, it would be easier to get possessed by a demon by remaining in the body because when you become more aware and acquainted with the spirit realm, then you become more aware of what demons are up to in regards to you.
If you don&#8217;t know your enemy, how can you fight him strategically?

If this is true, then I suppose this would be the difference between astral projection and ecstasy. When someone is sent into a state of ecstasy by God, they're basically in a coma. You could hack off all their limbs and you would get no response whatsoever.

I don&#8217;t think there is much difference between astral projection and ecstasy and here is why: when you astral project and then go meet with God, then you will enter ecstasy, but when God just sovereignty does it for you, ecstasy just happens sooner. Whether God does it all for you, or you do some of it, matters not because either way you still have the silver cord connection and you will still eventually come back to your body. Even if you did get your arms hacked off if God put you in the state, you will still eventually come back to the body. Unless God keeps them asleep for their whole life, which I highly doubt it.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

I want to talk to a Christian or a Jew about astral projection. Why do you think it's demonic? Why do you think God does not aprove of the practice of astral projection via meditation techniques? What is your scriptural evidence and logical argument that astral projection is wrong? Currently I am convinced it's not wrong or demonic from scripture, but am open to debate it and be convinced otherwise. And i hope i got this question in the right section of the forum, not sure. But either case, here it is.

For those who don't know, astral projection is the means of having out of body experiences through meditation and mind work.

Why does the title of your thread not match your OP?

 

[Windwalker]

I agree we can experience God in the body, but since the father is spirit, we can communicate with him better in the spirit realm. If the father is spirit, it only makes logical sense. Yes, we can experience him in the body because he is omnipresent, but not to the fullest extent as in the spirit realm.

Says who? If Jesus was God incarnate, did he have to leave the body to experience God in the fullest? NO. So why do you say we have to? Why are you making God somewhere more here, and somewhere less there?

It seems to me your goal should be to overcome whatever that is in your body that blocks you from realizing God fully in body, mind, soul, and spirit. If you think you need to leave the body to see God, your forcing a variable in there that will never allow you to experience God fully. It's solely your mind which blocks the full experience of God in the body. It's the mind that says we are separate from God.

 

[Jollybear]

Why does the title of your thread not match your OP?

Explain more? I don't understand.